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 Great talents that never "made" it..
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Bob Carlucci Member From: Candor, New York, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 05:30 AM
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Going through Extended Family, each day I see sad stories about the passing of great friends of my steel playing buddies. So many of those folks were/are LOADED with talent but never able to really make the big time.. Yeah they could eat and almost pay the bills, but always in the shadow of the "" Big Names""... I too have played with SUPER talented friends that never made it really.. a few were pretty well known in thier own backyard, but never seemed to realy "catch fire" elsewhere.. many of these old friends could blow away half of todays "stars". Guys and girls with soul,innovation,fantastic vocal ability, but just never made it over the hump for whatever reason. . I dunno, I just think this would be a good discussion topic. [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 06 July 2005 at 05:36 AM.] |
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Mark Metdker Member From: North Central Texas, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 05:38 AM
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Yep, I know what you mean. I'm playing with a guy right now who has one of the best voices I have ever heard. www.jonchristopherdavis.com And, he may make it yet. But we have already figured out that it ain't the steak, it's the "sizzle" that sells the most records. We are still trying to figure out how to "sizzle" better! ------------------ Strats thru a VHT Super 30 Band Pics |
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Fred Nolen Member From: Mohawk, Tennessee, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 06:37 AM
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I couldn't agree more. Mark, would you mind if I use your "it aint the steak, but the sizzle that sells"? I am an adjunct teacher at the local community college and can think of a many uses for this. As I teach developmental courses, my students will remember things such as this long after the lecture has ended.If you don't mind, I will cite you as my source - you know, plagiarism and all. Thanks, and pardon my getting off the subject. Ol' Fred |
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Jack Stoner Sysop From: Inverness, Florida |
posted 06 July 2005 06:37 AM
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I used to work for a Jukebox company, in Harrisburg, Pa. I did the "programming" (record purchasing) and would get sent records from all over the country. Some had a lot of potential, good voices and good recording sessions but the problem was if the same song would have been cut by a known singer, e.g. Sinatra, Tony Bennett or same way with a country song it would sell a million. I did get lucky with a couple of "covers" (basically all jukeboxes except a select few) before any other jukebox company in the Harrisburg area programmed them with the Supreme's "Baby Love" and Roger Miller's "Dang Me" but these turned out to be "superstars", not an unknown that never made it. The person has to have the voice, but also the stage presence, etc to really make it. True, today, it mostly takes looks and the $$$ to promote you but I'm referring to "real" talent. |
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Jim Cohen Member From: Philadelphia, PA |
posted 06 July 2005 06:55 AM
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I've always thought Terri Gibbs should have gone much farther in the business than she did. Now it seems she has retired from the music business:
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Mark Metdker Member From: North Central Texas, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 07:43 AM
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Fred, feel free to use it. ------------------ Strats thru a VHT Super 30 Band Pics |
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Donny Hinson Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. |
posted 06 July 2005 08:56 AM
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Bob, they say that heroes are made, not born. That is, they're just ordinary people who were put in a position where their particular contribution was made evident, sort of "being in the right place at the right time". I think those that are classified as "stars" are the same thing. They're ordinary people who were placed in the public eye by some circumstance, and then got recognized by the masses for their "contributions". Call it luck, fate, timing, or whatever. We, and history, make people stars and heroes. They're not really special, they're just doing what they do. Many with really little talent achieved much notoriety, and many with great talents remain unknown, and will never be recognized. That's life. So it goes. |
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Fred Shannon Member From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas |
posted 06 July 2005 09:12 AM
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The topic suggests, too, that perhaps everyone in the music business really wanted to "make it big". There's the distinct possibility, and in my case--fact, that several of us, who have been in the 'business' for a long period of time, didn't or don't, want to make the big time, and wouldn't take it if offered. Some of us are perfectly content to just entertain and relish the satisfaction of performing in good harmony with fellow musicians, and be satisfied that 'amateurs', if that's the proper word, will never have to worry and fuss over the problems that 'professionals' encounter. And, too, the fact remains there are several players who fall into the amateur status, as stipulated by the pros, that can kick the pants off of some that make their living playing. McCall does a number that exemplifies the feelings of some of us; "leave me alone". Good topic. ------------------ |
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Dave Grafe Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 09:33 AM
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It is a good topic, Bob. A few years ago a couple of colleges collaborated on a two-year study to see to what degree talent and luck played a part in a given artist "making the big time" -- they found that it was about 50-50, which is to say half the time talent goes unnoticed and half the time sheer luck is all it takes regardless of the talent involved. I have several friends that did "make it" and while they are all vbery talented, every one of them has a story of how their career took off due to pure circumstance, some of them way too bizarre to believe. When I was younger I dreamed of being the bass player for The Eagles. Since that time, I have had the opportunity to work with somebody who actually was and if that is how I'd have turned out I'm glad it never happened. I'm with Fred, it's not necessarily a lifestyle for people who value good physical and mental health, not to mention maintaing quality relationships, raising children, etc. - Roy Buchanon, for instance, had many opportunities to become "big time" but had a much better idea. I'll choose quality of life over fame and fleeting fortune anytime - besides, only the songwriters ever make any real money and most of them get to stay home a lot. |
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Bill Hatcher Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA |
posted 06 July 2005 09:56 AM
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Jim Cohen. I was doing some song demos for a publisher a few years ago and one of the tapes sent to me to do a track on was a Terri Gibbs demo-just her singing and playing acoustic piano to a cheap cassete machine. Very nice song and she sounded great in spite of the poor quality recording. Maybe she is just into song writing these days. She is indeed a fine talent. |
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John Daugherty Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 10:55 AM
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There is some "LUCK" involved in getting recognized. You need to be in the right place at the right time. You can increase your chances of being in the right place if you are willing to travel. I think most of us paid our dues to our family and gave up a lot of travel opportunities. |
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Bob Carlucci Member From: Candor, New York, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 11:09 AM
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While I do agree that some VERY talented people really don't care if they ever "hit it big", I was thinking more along the lines of really talented people that worked hard, paid thier dues, WANTED it bad, worked for it, dreamed about it, but could never really make it happen. Buchannan was a freak as far as playing ability went.. unreal. I just wonder if he ever really "wanted it"... I'm sure he had the opportunities. I just think the number of great singers/writers/players that "fall through the cracks" is appalling. I think of some of the great singers I've been friends with, and played two bit dives with for $40-50... then I think about a few of the ""artists"" on top 40 radio,, and I just shake my head and wonder if life is fair.. Forgive me,, I KNOW I'm over analyzing AS USUAL, but that damn Extended Family section gets me every time... I'm just too much of a softie . |
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George Redmon Member From: |
posted 06 July 2005 11:30 AM
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Hey Bob Carlucci...great post my friend. I played many years ago with a guy by the name of John Hart. He had it all together. And also was a finalist on that old TV show on TNN, "You Can Be A Star". He was an entertainer, song writer, singer, just an all around mix of talent. He had the protential, to perform on any stage with the best of them. I sat on my back deck one night with him. He wrote a song called "We'd do it all over again"....this was about 6 years BEFORE Alan Jackson ever recorded anything close to it. I have it on cassette to this day. just flat top and talent. He kept kicking on doors, banging his head against the wall. Did demos..you name it. He gave up..he's a meat cutter today, and hasn't played in at least 10 years or so. I was told by a very reliable source, that while in Nashville for a period of time, he sold the aforementioned song, one night while drinking in a downtown Nashville bar to.."Some dude in a suite for 50 bucks".... ------------------ |
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Alan Shank Member From: Woodland, CA, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 12:04 PM
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She's not a steel player, but this thread is not necessarily just about steel players. My nomination for a great talent who hasn't made it is singer Dawn Sears. For me, she is one of the absolutely best country singers I have ever heard. She has a couple of albums out, years old, and mostly does backup singing for Vince Gill, Patty Loveless and others. I imagine she's making a living, but if I were the "general public," she would be a star. She is one of the very few singers that can make me listen to a song I don't like, just because of her voice and the way she sings. Cheers, Alan Shank |
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David Wren Member From: Placerville, California, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 01:37 PM
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Those in the Northern Ca. area for more than ten years will know this fellow. He is Sacramento steel guitarist, Jimmy Fox. I haven't seen Jimmy for years and years, but when I was starting to get gigs in the early '70's he was absolutley tops... he did ocassionally record for various folks from Sacramento to Bakersfield, but mostly just played 5-6 nights a week... truely a master at E9th or C6th... tone to rival any other player, and was even kind enough to take some time to show me a thing or two. ------------------ |
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Dean Dobbins Member From: Rome, Ilinois, U.S.A. |
posted 06 July 2005 03:21 PM
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Another fantastic talent is Dani Leigh. If you've ever heard her rendition of "Touch Me", you'd have to agree she could give Willie Nelson lessons in phrasing! Ofcourse, all us steelers know who should be at the top-LANEY HICKS! ------------------ |
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George Redmon Member From: |
posted 06 July 2005 03:35 PM
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Dean..i agree..Laney Hicks is #uno..such a great talent and wonderful person...i just love everything she does....can we nominate her into the steel guitar hall of fame even though she doesn't play? she sure has contributed to it with her great voice. And her support for Steel Guitar!!!! My Vote! ------------------ [This message was edited by George Redmon on 06 July 2005 at 03:36 PM.] [This message was edited by George Redmon on 06 July 2005 at 03:39 PM.] |
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b0b Sysop From: Cloverdale, California, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 04:33 PM
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Since it's not about "Steel Players", I'm moving this to the "Music" section. |
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Ken Lang Member From: Simi Valley, Ca |
posted 06 July 2005 06:49 PM
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While I was never good enough to even think of superstardom, sometimes when the pressures of engineering and systems building get to me and others I have a phrase that helps to lighten the load. I tell them, "I should have stuck with music. I coulda been a has been by now." |
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George Kimery Member From: Limestone, TN, USA |
posted 06 July 2005 08:53 PM
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There is something called "Star Quality" that comes into play. It is hard to put your finger on exactly what it is, but some have it and some don't. Talent seems to take a back seat to "Star Quality." Being in the right place, not being ahead of your time, hooking up with a good manager, etc. all seem to be more important than talent. There are many, many singers out there that are better than most of the so called stars. But if everything comes together and they don't have that star quality, I think they will be a one or two hit success, then will fade into ablivion. A "star" is a product that has to be marketed just like selling anything else. Conway Twitty was an item to be marketed. Hank Jr. is marketed to the 30 year old beer drinking roudy croud. Off stage, he is totally different as was Conway. So was Elvis, and the list goes on an on. The image of a performer is what is put on the shelf to sell to the public. The packaging, so to speak. I think that is why some make it big and some don't. Look at Willie Nelson. He never made it big until he was packaged with the long hair, beard, and bandana head band. He was a pretty big star before this, but nothing like he became after changing the packaging. David Allen Coe tried going from the outlaw look to a clean shaven suit and tie type of guy. It didn't work. His fans wouldn't accept the new image. So, he wisely went back to the way his fans saw him. If you don't have what it takes to develop a big following in your area, then you probably don't have what it takes to develop a national or international following. Just my opinion on the subject. |
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Bill McCloskey Member From: |
posted 06 July 2005 10:06 PM
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As an aside, the phrase "You don't sell the steak, you sell the sizzle." is a very very well known and used phrase, especially in marketing circles. It has been around for at least 30 years that I know of and was even quoted in a famous Seinfeld episode where Kramer gets a "job". No need to get the permission of a forum member to use that old chestnut. |
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jim milewski Member From: stowe, vermont |
posted 07 July 2005 04:31 AM
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or the guy who worked a famous circus following the elephants with a shovel and wheelbarrel was asked did he ever feel like quiting his job, he replied, "what! and give up show business", I guess in his eyes "he made it big" |
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Bob Carlucci Member From: Candor, New York, USA |
posted 07 July 2005 06:19 AM
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George K.. very well stated.. I really enjoyed your perspective! I was especially interested when you said "NOT being ahead of your time".. GREAT insight!!.. It is a shame that great talent is actually PENALIZED in the music industry for being "ahead of the curve" so to speak. You would think the exact OPPOSITE would be the case... alas, we all know better.... bob |
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Jack Stoner Sysop From: Inverness, Florida |
posted 07 July 2005 07:44 AM
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The story about Col Parker and Elvis comes back to me, as told to me by Little Roy Wiggins. He said he was in Col Parker's office with several other people and they were discussing talent and Col Parker stated he could take that "kid in Memphis" and make him a star. There was a wager made between one of the people in the office and Col Parker. Col Parker contacted Elvis, arranged the Management deal. Booked Elvis into Miami, put up billboards that "Elvis is coming", hired a group of girls to meet him at the plane, etc. The rest is history. However, given the opportunity, it was Elvis who had the charisma and was able to build upon that and become the super star. (edited for typo's. Damned computer can't speel). [This message was edited by Jack Stoner on 07 July 2005 at 07:46 AM.] |
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Bill McCloskey Member From: |
posted 07 July 2005 08:27 AM
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The music business is a business first and foremost. Like any business, marketing is a big part of it. Without good marketing, publicity, distribution, etc, no one is going to make it regardless of talent. This is true in the visual arts as well. Talent is the raw material: you can't promote a no talent for too long and get away with it. But talent is just the beginning. Good management and promotion are equally important if not more important. The most successful people are the ones that realize this early on. The rest play their local church group, retirement homes, community benefit concerts, and so on. (Not that there is anything wrong with that). Like Edison said, it's 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. Same goes in music. Talent probably means 1%, the other 99% is marketing. |
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Kenny Burford Member From: Lexington, Missouri USA |
posted 07 July 2005 11:09 AM
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I agree that marketing is what brings any products name to the top of the market and it takes money to market any product. Performers are products that have to be marketed; Hollywood has done if for decades by picking the most beautiful women and handsome men, it's just that now Nashville is in the same mode. Another point about marketing, the mass media tells the audience what they like and convinces them they like it through continuous exposure. Unfortunately, the general public equates recognition and popularity to talent. Not wanting to get too far away from the original point of this ribbon, I would like mention some talents in my area that I believe should have had a shot with a major record label. Johnny Nace, Don Vannoy, Tommy Ross, Clayton Howerton, Gene Sloan, Dave Owens, Kenny Brent, and Howard Collings, in my mind these folks deserved a shot. |
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Bill McCloskey Member From: |
posted 07 July 2005 11:47 AM
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Also not to move this topic too far afield, but I would say most marketers would tell you that there isn't really much of a mass market anymore. Marketing channels are so fractured, that you really need to apply niche marketing to succeed. This has been done with a number of performers: Alison Kraus, Lucinda Williams, Jerry Douglas, (in fact almost everyone involved with the Oh Brother Where Art Though soundtrack) have been marketed very successfully through National Public radio stations, and not on the ClearChannels of the world. But they are marketed none the less. I could list dozens of performers in the American roots type singer/songerwriter tradition that have very successfully marketed themselves. Take a look at Ani DeFranco for an extreme example of this. Blaming so-called mass media for proliferation of overly produced commercial music is mis-guided in my opinion. The reality is that most people are not discriminating when it comes to entertainment. |
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Dave Mudgett Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA |
posted 07 July 2005 12:20 PM
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Jack, that story makes sense. You're right about Elvis having the goods when given the opportunity. The Edison quote certainly applies, but this quote from Pasteur applies at least as much: "Chance favors the prepared mind." I think part of the problem I have with the mainstream music biz these days is that a lot of people are trying and getting away with marketing "no talent". I guess pre-pubescent teens are OK with all sizzle and no steak, and since we're a youth-obsessed culture, that's what is being pushed. Hey, it IS easier to sell to people who don't know which end is up yet. But I still ask the Clara Peller question "Where's the beef?". Why are the music marketeers ignoring the huge 50+ year old population bulge with fat wallets? Are we really such fat, lazy, and self-interested chumps that we should be ignored, as we are portrayed on sitcoms these days by 20-30 somethings? Or is it just too difficult to make and market anything for us? Or is our generation just incapable of rising above the level of Yanni and Kenny G. any more. I don't think any of this is true, but that's what the popular culture seems to think of us. Bill M., I agree - niche marketing is the way to go, it's proven itself again and again in the last decade or two in many areas, IMO. Which is why I ask the following question: Why are major labels hung up on mega-platinum stardom? That's getting to be a harder and harder formula to sell. I honestly believe they'd be better spreading around a more lean-and-mean production/marketing approach to 10 solid performers in several niche markets than try to spend the same amount on one big "all-sizzle" crapshoot. One final point: these marketeers need to look at demographics - that's the one thing that's fairly easy to predict on 10-20 year forecast horizons. There's a dip started in teenager population, which will, in several years, work its way through the college age population, and so on. Us 40-50+'ers may be more valuable as time goes on, as the current cohort of teen-30 year olds starts focusing away from the sizzle and we have more time as we start to retire. |
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Jerry Hayes Member From: Virginia Beach, Va. |
posted 07 July 2005 12:25 PM
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Some folks who come to mind from my old SoCal days are: Jerry Inman....One helluva singer with his own unique voice. He had some great recordings and sometimes they were covered by Nashville artists but never as good as old J.I...He looked good on stage and had it going, I don't know why he never made it. Maybe he shouldn't have stayed in California. Buddy Cagle.....Another great west coast artist. This guy had (has) one of the most beautiful voices I've ever heard in any kind of music. He recorded for Capitol for a while but didn't do much nationally so they dropped him. Eddie Drake....Another L.A. music legend. I even played steel for him for a while. He was a good all 'round classic country singer and picked a good lead guitar to boot. Rod Culpepper.....He was in L.A. for a good while and had a fantastic voice, was a good songwriter, played sax, guitar, bass, harmonica, looked good on stage and had it all. He moved back to Texas and died from Cancer. He wrote some great songs which should have seen the light of day. One of them was called "I Love Hank Williams but I Love that Boogie Woogie Too"..... Billy Mize......He did pretty good at songwriting (It All Depends on Who'll Buy the Wine) and others but he sang his butt off. I think maybe he was too nice a guy to make it real big. He had songs recorded by Ray Price, Dean Martin, and a bunch of others. ------------------ |
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Ray Minich Member From: Limestone, New York, USA |
posted 07 July 2005 01:52 PM
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quote: First, congratulations on the Clara Peller analogy, I'd a never thought of her name in a hunnert years... 2nd, us 50+ year olds are more discriminant in our purchases. Too picky for the mainstream production houses. [This message was edited by Ray Minich on 07 July 2005 at 01:54 PM.] |
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Bob Smith Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA |
posted 07 July 2005 03:36 PM
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Its the old supply and demand theory I believe, thousands of talented people around, but the music biz seems to get by fine with 5 or 6 big names at a time and some of those names stay in strong contention for 20yrs or more. So, its alot like pro- boxing , plenty of guys swingin, but only a few get the pay and glory. Just my opinion here. bob |
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Joe Henry Member From: Ebersberg, Germany |
posted 08 July 2005 12:35 AM
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quote: Yeah, and then he went and killed himself. I always wondered if the thing we´re discussing here maybe had something to do with it. Regards, JH |
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Jerry Hayes Member From: Virginia Beach, Va. |
posted 08 July 2005 10:29 AM
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Roy Buchannan was once asked to join the Rolling Stones! He would have been set for life in the cash department with that gig. Instead we got Ron Wood who's OK I guess but no R.B.......JH in Va. ------------------ |
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Dave Grafe Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA |
posted 08 July 2005 10:42 AM
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While it's true that the "huge 50+" demographic is responsible for earning the money that fills those bulging wallets, US marketing research seems to indicate that it's the teenage daughters of these same that are spending the bulk of it on popular culture - music, clothes, consumer electronics, etc. [This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 08 July 2005 at 10:44 AM.] |
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Bob Carlucci Member From: Candor, New York, USA |
posted 08 July 2005 04:10 PM
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Well stated Dave.. Hence we have singers like Jessica Andrews singing about hanging out in her bikini and her new tattoo[you'll like the view,,]AND Jessica Simpson singing on Country Music Television, writhing in a tiny bikini with Willie Nelson strumming his battered acoustic guitar singing in a cameo... Welcome to [as one of the local NY stations phrases it].."Hot New Country"... Pardon me.. I'll be right back... I need to go stick my finger down my throat... bob |
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Dave Mudgett Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA |
posted 08 July 2005 06:10 PM
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I realize that the marketeers believe that, Dave. G., but I'm not sure it's true. I think the issue is that the hype is geared to the teens, but that's another case of all sizzle and no beef, IMO. I think the real money still lies in the hands of daddy/mommy-warbucks 50+er. It's the idea of 'what is popular culture' that has been distorted from reality, IMO. We have pulled out of the 'popular culture scene' because there's nothing there. But what we do is simply a different 'popular culture'. I think the marketeers are just blinded by their preconceptions of what 'popular culture' is (or perhaps, what they want it to be, which is a shallow, material scene which turns over every year or two and provides a new cohort of naive 'prospects' to be fleeced). My earlier point is that the demographics is not looking good for continuance of this. As the bulge in the 'post-WWII baby boom echo' ages past college age in the next few years, they won't be so naive, and I really do think the marketeers are going to have to find a new horse to ride. Whether that improves the situation for middle-aged musicians is far from obvious, but I think as our generation moves into retirement, entertainment of the type we like will become a hotter item. As they say, a rising tide raises all boats. Some of us may get a second chance at the music biz. And, maybe not. |
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Bob Smith Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA |
posted 09 July 2005 10:01 AM
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Hi Dave M. , how did ya make out at the Phili guitar show? bob |
any thoughts?..bobAll times are Pacific (US) | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
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