A totally free 4.4 MB file to help you transition away from tab. Learn to read notation and you can access any written material; gain a better understanding of what you are playing via chord/melody relationships, and impress your date

The book is geared toward underarm guitar, but the principals can be applied to steel guitar as well.

More reasons to learn to read here.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

I agree that learning to read music and understanding the relationships between scales and chords is essential. This is learned only through standard notation. However, I find that once one has gained a strong grasp on these concepts and is actively involved in making music, one should internalize all these elements and not rely to heavily on reading music (unless of course you are a session musician or a mercenary playing unfamiliar music). Even as a vocalist, I find myself internalizing the song and the lyrics better without the aid of a chart or lyric sheet (except, the first few times).

I feel I play the songs better without charts and just rely on my ears as much as I can.

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www.mikeneer.com

Mike Neer on MySpace

B) When people complain that "There's not enough hours in the day to learn everything I want to", they usually do try to read music.

I feel that both skills are at least desirable, if not absolutely necessary, and each one complements each other. I belive I'm a better reader because I can play by ear, and I play by ear better because I can read.

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the conservatories DO churn out folks who are lost without written music- and that's a shame.

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One of my closest friends is like that. Nancy is a virtuoso violinist, and an A-list Hollywood session player who has played on hundreds of recordings and TV and movie soundtracks, but take away the music and she's lost.

I taught her the blues scale and invited her to sit in with a blues-rock band I was playing with, and she had a great time, and told me later it was the first time she had ever tried to inprovise, and loved it. She said that she learned more that night (and had more fun playing) than in the previous 10 years, and agreed that there was something very definitely lacking in her musical education.

Nancy just bought an electric violin, and plans to play more rock and blues, and even wants try to learn how to play jazz. I think she'll do well.

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My web site

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 29 June 2006 at 01:17 PM.]

There are sometimes 4 different places on a neck to grab the same note, that’s why tab is essential. The music notation is great for getting the note values timing wise. The Beatles complete book is all tab and notation (the big white book) for example. If you can't double check the tab against the written notation your doomed because alot of the songs in that book have mistakes with the tab here and there (I’ve wondered how many youngsters this screwed up who only read tab).

Someone once sent me a Joe Pass solo (published in Japan) to correct- there were literally hundreds of errors- wrong chord voicings mostly.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

This is precisely why I'm opposed to using tab or encouraging a student to use it. Why not learn the melody in all 4 places? Why be limited to what's been tabbed? It is my belief that you will know the neck better without it.

If you look at guitarists such as Eric Johnson and Allan Holdsworth, it's obvious that their scale fingerings are not the same fingerings taught and used by most teachers. This is one of the things that contributes to the unique sound of the individual player.

Also, I once watched a video of a guy playing the solo from Holdworth's "Devil Take the Hindmost" verbatim. Played it completely different than Allan position-wise (I've seen Allan play a hundred times), but sounded exactly the same. I think people relate to the instruments in many different ways, and what one person sees on the neck as being most usable, another has a different approach.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 29 June 2006 at 02:24 PM.]

The thing about tab is it saves you time because it shows you very quickly the method to the madness of different artists. If you don't use the right positions on alot of pieces of music it doesn't play that easy alot of times. Why make a thing harder for yourself than they need to be, that doesn’t make you a super musician in the end? Tab that is correct is like taking a private lesson with someone famous where you can watch his or her hands moving right in front of you. That’s why Dick McIntire wrote tab out for his students as do all these other famous steel players, duh? On this one buddy, your all by yourself?

Edited for spelling...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 02 July 2006 at 07:45 AM.]

PITCH is absolute. TAB is INTERPRETIVE. Accuracy of pitch is absolute- it's either the note (or notes) the artist played, or not. If it is in tab, it might be the right note but in the wrong place. Does that matter? Sometimes it makes all the difference in the world.

If you are familiar with the way Django played, and the legacy of his appraoch to the guitar (which are nicely covered in Stephane Wrembel's "Getting Into Gypsy Jazz Guitar" and Michael Horowitz' "Gypsy Picking", both guys lived in Europe and studied with real deal players like Fapy LaFertin and Serge Krief), you'll find the Mel Bay Django books with tab to be wrong- not because the tab positions won't match the notation, but because there are traditional procedures to get "that sound", .i.e. rules, that the tab doesn't follow, probably because the transcriber is more of an all-around jazz guy and not a practioner of this traditional style (not that I subscribe to all the rules, but i know what they are, such as never switching a string with an upstroke. Seems ridiculous, but they have good reasons for doing it that way). If you finger it "like Django", it sounds more like Django- which would be the point, yes? THEN if you want to interpret or play it somewhere else or make it sound like Jim Hall, then it is personal choice...but if the artist is going to be represented in an "authenic version" then that's what it should be, and not interpretive.

Tab (alone) can be very helpful; but it has also created a culture of guitarists who have never experienced any theory and lose out on a broader experience of music. I have NEVER seen a tab reader who doesn't read standard notation who can decipher rhythmic notation- it's generally not part of the tab scene- which means if you haven't heard the piece, you aren't gonna be able to play it. It teaches a player nothing about the chord/melody relationship that is evident at a glance (when you know what to look for) in standard notation. If they are going to just recite tab, then the job will get done, but these some people complain that they don't know "how to be creative". Theory knowledge sure can aid in creativity if you know how to use it. I doubt anyone has ever learned the meat and potatoes of music theory from tab!

And still after all this, none of it adds up to anything if you can't HEAR. Better a great ear and no theory/reading than all the theory in the world, sight read like the devil, and no ear. IMHO.

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Any teacher who doesn't teach his students tab along with written notation is a bad teacher.

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Ah- that'd be me and just about every teacher at Berklee, North Texas State, and any university in the world. Not to mention just about any jazz player on the planet.

I don't seem to be considered a "bad teacher" by too many, Jesse. That's a ridiculous statement to make unless you know the teacher. Sweeping insults...ah, well, you are entitled to think whatever you want. But you are wrong
I agree with Jeff Berlin that reliance on tab alone is a mistake for players who want to really learn about music beyond apeing what someone else has done.

I use classical guitar notation where a circled number indicates the string for a passage to be played on; fingerings if needed...all the info that tab provides PLUS the extra crucial harmonic info (not to mention rhythm) that standard notation offers. Tab is the reverse: a dumbed-down version that shows nothing other than a road map to a possibility of what positions MIGHT have been used, based on the educated or uneducated guesses of thye transcriber (and I will tell you there are TONS or inaccurate tab books out there by all the big publishers).

Notation can be easily interpreted; i.e. you can look at it and sing it- can you really do that with tab?

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 01 July 2006 at 08:19 AM.]

Would you not call Wes Montgomery or Django musicians, to name two who didn't read? Ability to read is nice, but it alone doesn't qualify ANYONE to "musician" status IMHO.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 01 July 2006 at 09:49 AM.]

You advocate that tab does not teach the timing and exact pitch etc, so you need to really listen to the recording to get that? Again, that is what I said in my past posts here? I don't know anybody who reads tab that doesn't record copy with it to also get the phrasing etc? What kind of retards are you running into? It's the loss to your unsuspecting students who put their trust in you to help them learn how to gather all available resources to free themselves from the teacher that I hear you talking about. But, they wouldn't take as many lessons then would they? I tell students I only give them 10 lessons and send them on their way. It’s up to them to teach themselves through all the different resources out there for them to use, number one being a lot of transcribing after they have their foundations down.

The reality is tab encourages young musicians to train their ear by listening closely to the recorded music. Gees, what are you guys thinking?

I appreciate your effort.

I can actually figure out some stuff in real notation now.

I've been educating myself over the years on how to read music, especially some Bach guitar pieces I found thru TablEdit (but reading notation vs TAB)

So your wonderful "notation" tutorial is another great tool for me.

Music - writing it, listening to it, creating it, and appreciating it, with all it's subtleties and nuances, is still a mysterious art form.

Most other art forms are "cast-in-stone", sort of speak.

Before recording devices, music was lost as soon as it was created.

It's still hard to capture a musical moment.
Even some of the best written notated interpretations of Classical music are just that. Someone's idea. Not like a painting - it's there, and there it is; or a piece of sculpture.

Hope I'm not topic-straying here, but I think music is just such a mysterious medium.

The more you can understand it, the better off you'll be; if you're a dedicated musician.

I've learned more about music, for instance, here on the Forum, than pedal steel; in a sense.

I love this place. Thanks b0b, and JohnMc.

Chipper

[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 01 July 2006 at 08:02 PM.]

Jesse- We were close to being on the same pages on several points until your last post.

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My last post, last paragraph said "tab that is correct". Maybe it would help if you read all of my past posts concerning this thread first before getting all defensive?

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Defensive? The fact is that much tab on the market is INCORRECT. I mean stuff published by Mel Bay, Hal Leonard, Guitar World, you name it.
I believe I was trying to point out that tab can be replaced by standard notation that has the classical guitar style string/position indicators.

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You advocate that tab does not teach the timing and exact pitch etc, so you need to really listen to the recording to get that? Again, that is what I said in my past posts here? I don't know anybody who reads tab that doesn't record copy with it to also get the phrasing etc?

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Point being that tab on it's own is incomplete. Can you imagine a serious musician being handed a piece of tab and expected to play it without the recording? Has tab every been used in a recording studio? Has ther been one name brand player who has developed an original voice through exclusive tab use? My point is musicians communicate a bigger picture with notation. Tab can help, but it doesn't replace notation as a tool of communication.It is not used in situations where musicians are expected to read music- you know, like jobs.

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It's the loss to your unsuspecting students who put their trust in you to help them learn how to gather all available resources to free themselves from the teacher that I hear you talking about. But, they wouldn't take as many lessons then would they?

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Here's where you are out of bounds and being abrasive as you were to Mike. My students don't come to me to learn to do "record copies". They are interested in learning music,and figuring out the ins and outs, not in being parrots.When is a student "free"- when they can transcribe their own record copies? If your students can do complex and accurate work after 10 lessons, you are absolutely magic.

I'm happy to take my student's money, 'cause it takes more than 10 lessons to learn the language of music.Perhaps this is why there are 4 year music schools? I must be a real whore by your standards, since I'm giving away a book I wrote and paid for (I hired someone to do the typesetting 6 years before I owned a computer)

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The reality is tab encourages young musicians to train their ear by listening closely to the recorded music. Gees, what are you guys thinking?

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I don't know about anyone else, I'll speak for myself: If anyone is trying to learn music without "listening closely to recorded music" whether reading tab OR notation, they are missing the boat, because ANY form of written music is just the tip of the performance iceberg.

My reality as a teacher has shown me that "tab culture" as popularized by magazines such as the bluegrass world and Guitar World that for years published transcriptions in tab only format helped to form a generation of electric and acoustic guitar players who don't know where the notes are on their instruments; don't know why certain combinations of inotes sound the way they do, don't understand how melodies and chords interact, and are unable to do anything but play in copy bands.Go to a bluegrass festival and hear 15 young guitarists playing versions of fiddle tunes they learned from Player X's Tab Book...

If they are happy, then so be it.Tab alone is great for amateur players who aren't interested in learning all the nuts and bolts of theory. However, I see lots of frustrated kids looking to step out from that world.

Now, to me, for pedal steel, tab is essential, but I prefer the MuSymTab thing which gives the standard notation, chord symbols, and shows exactly how each string is affected to make the combination of notes. It makes you think about what actually happens when you mash 'em, which I know I took for granted as a beginner!

Tab is not complete ear training. Ear training is about recognizing intervals and being able to name them and find them on the horn. It's about recognizing chord types, and understanding why chords (and scales) are constructed the way they are. How key signatures work. Why triads aren't all the same. Why chord inversions exist, etc. Tab is not the tool for the job.The language of music that is common to all instruments is da notes-da tab is instrument specific, and again, if aping recordings is your bag, then have at it. Why would a student even need you?

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What kind of retards are you running into?

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A statement like that is beneath contempt. Grow up, Jesse.

[This message was edited by John McGann on 01 July 2006 at 10:57 PM.]

Try calling Charlie Parker a parrot for being able to play so many Lester Young pieces note for note? There's so many artists who went on to fame who have their personal faves that they can play note for note it's not worth even listing them by name.

One of the hardest things is keeping a kid motivated in the beginning and one of the best ways is the immediate gratification of learning songs fast and correct, tab helps that to happen. It's hard hearing you use Wes's name as a non-reader on one hand and then bitching about tab and parrots not being able to read and only working in cover bands? There has always been alot of working musicians who can't read? If you knew your history you'd understand that this supposed new culture you speak of was here long before tab appeared, LOL?

I know cover musicians who can't read tab or music notation and they work all the time? They can play pretty good when it comes to their phrasing because of all their record copying. And they write their own stuff too. Rock ,blues and country doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out past the pentatonics and simple chord structures.

Why you started to throw in all this music theory stuff is beyond me? What we are debating concerning tab seems to be two different issues. There's plenty of readers who know theory and still can't make music that is connected to you know what?

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Try calling Charlie Parker a parrot for being able to play so many Lester Young pieces note for note? There's so many artists who went on to fame who have their personal faves that they can play note for note it's not worth even listing them by name.

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Sure, and Wes learning Charlie Christian note for note- the time honored way, BY EAR. I don't think Bird had 'tabs' for Pres

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It's hard hearing you use Wes's name as a non-reader on one hand and then bitching about tab and parrots not being able to read and only working in cover bands?

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I invoked Wes' name as an amazing musician who didn't read music. My bitching is simply this: the "tab culture" in my experience (and not yours, so you don't have to disagree) has not created any Charlie Parkers or Wes Montgomerys. Bird and Wes obviously had developed their ears and built on the achievements of their predecessors.

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There has always been alot of working musicians who can't read?

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Yes but my point is that WHERE musicians are expected to read-like shows, pit bands, orchestra gigs etc- they DON'T get to read tab, and if that's ALL they know, they are sunk.

Many of my (and probably your) favorite musicians don't read. I am not in the read-or-you-aren't-real tribe!

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if you knew your history you'd understand that this supposed new culture you speak of was here long before tab appeared, LOL?

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LOL you misunderstand me. That's cool. Thanks for the history lesson. What the hell do I know?

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I know cover musicians who can't read tab or music notation and they work all the time? They can play pretty good when it comes to their phrasing because of all their record copying. And they write their own stuff too. Rock ,blues and country doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out past the pentatonics and simple chord structures.

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Hey, I know the same guys. Whaddya know.

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Why you started to throw in all this music theory stuff is beyond me?

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True : To illustrate the point to anyone who cares to read these posts that tab alone doesn't deliver the big picture. That wasn't aimed at you, so don't worry about it. I know you know that.

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What we are debating concerning tab seems to be two different issues. There's plenty of readers who know theory and still can't make music that is connected to you know what?

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Damn straight! without ears and othyer essentials, whaddya got??!?!

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I'm sorry to be disagree with you John,

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Don't be, just why not have a little respect with your disagreement, eh? We're all just bozos here so no need to get snotty, unless you like to look like a jerk.

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but I know better about the stuff you keep throwing at me. If you think I'm making you look unhip by redirecting you to things I've already posted and also by my giving you real life facts as examples to support my contentions, your right. And yea, I am rough around the edges, get over it.

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I could care less about how hip or unhip I look (ask my wife!) and the only person whose image you have any effect on is yourself (and you are doing a great job of it). Since you know better, I'll leave you to it. But check out Hal Leonard's Django book and run it by a real Gypsy style player, and then tell me how accurate the tab is.

[This message was edited by John McGann on 02 July 2006 at 12:01 AM.]

Most people just want to gig and don't care to study that deep. If you have students that do, than it could take more than 10 lessons. I point people on guitar to Don Latarskies music books and also Mark Levins Jazz piano book and show them how to use them. I would rather teach someone how to fish than give them pieces of fish here and there if you know what I mean. I just see the positive in tab because I use it that way and I can share that with struggling music students to get positive results from it along with everything else, I don’t see as a exclusive learning aid by itself.

Dang John, I can't keep up with all your re-editing. Do me a favor and make a new post so I know what I'm responding to. I guess your taking your own advice by editing your "look like a jerk statements" out. Well, I can appreciate a guy who leads by example, LOL.

Good talking to ya John, I gotta crash. Have a good one.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 02 July 2006 at 12:27 AM.]

BTW Jesse, do you have a website where you've bared all the information you've posted here? John does. Just a thought. Further, don't give me the BS treatment that this is a Forum and open for any discussion. You don't have to be rude to disagree, but I guess today's world dictates that is the new method of operation. Bahhhhhhh!!!
Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Fred, I just looked at your profile and I don't know if your serious or not but your occupation said you were “retired/retarded”? Please believe me that my reference to retards was a slang word and I didn't think you'd call yourself retarded, I thought mentally disabled was what it was called for awhile now. If your funning me, good job. If your for real, you might change you profile to read “retired/musician”, it means the same thing most of the time. Keep studying, would you like some free tab with music notation to help you with learning to read music notation? Let me know and I’ll send you some so you can see what I’m trying to explain. Take care now.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 02 July 2006 at 02:01 AM.]

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

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Ron (Chippy) Wood
Emmons D10
Emmons D12

1) I believe that tab is great and good as a learning tool in the right context. I believe that with standard notation, it can really be helpful. belive that tab is often presented without rhythmic notation. I find that to be lacking, because it is incomplete. If I want to learn a piece that I don't own the recording of (or have handy) then I'm sunk.

I never advocated for the banishment of tab. I am sharing my opinion that by itself, it is a poor form of communication. That doesn't make me anti-tab.

2) I believe one can use both standard and tab for teaching. Personally, I have found many students who have relied on tab only and feel frustrated.

I don't care what you use for teaching. Different strokes etc. I don't expect the world to conform to what I think is right. I just offer an opinion.

3) I object to tab, used by itself, as a learning tool, in the cases of people wanting to (in the words of a marketer) "get beyond the tab" and really gain an understanding of what they are doing as a well rounded sax (or your instrument here) player or composer or improviser would understand it. There is a common language between players who are fluent with standard notation, and it makes it easier to communicate with them. Thanks a win-win for everyone involved.

4) If someone chooses not to read, whether it's tab or standard notation or the New York Times, it doesn't make them a better or worse player than anyone else. Musicianship is a multi-faceted thing, a lots of elements come into play. Knowing what to call stuff just makes it easier to organize information and build upon that foundation. What all great players have in common is truly regardless of ability to read dots or numbers.

I am not a "reading snob". If you are born with an amazing ear and can sail through whatever situations you find yourself by using that ear, then you have it made, because learning all this stuff is a pain in the ass. I wasn't born with the ability of a Wes or Bird, so learning how to hear and what the language of music is has really helped me develop as a musician.

5) I agree open minded learners should have access to every learning tool available. My kid could learn a lot from TV (good and bad) but it's not the optimal learning tool and if it were the only one available it would be less than inadequate. I have seen requests for tab of the simplest stuff on the mandolincafe.com site, which suggests that the idea of trying to learn something by ear is just too hard. Now, some folks just play for fun, and don't have the time or inclination for the hard work that ear training requires-but I feel they are missing the development of a crucial part of their overall musicianship- the ear, without which one is fairly sunk in music (let alone steel guitar!)

6) The Forum generally stands for civilized discourse. That doesn't mean you can't be passionate, opinionated, etc. It means you expected to not be abusive.

I don't consider myself to be above anyone else, including you, in presenting my point of view. If you disagree, fine. You have disagreed in a very obnoxious manner, and that's not fine with me or some other folks who have chimed in. If you want to be the kid that pees in the pool, fine, but in this pool everybody knows it.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Many of us here on the forum are life long musicians and will never get past being lucky enough just to gig. Many of us are the very parrots you speak about and that's how we became pro's and learned our instruments, you to no doubt?

I never called you a reading snob anywhere or anything close to that in anyway? I will point out since I play Bach on the classical guitar, that tab is faster than classical guitar music and easier to read. Tab was invented for the lute for all the same reasons I have been talking about hundreds of years ago.

"Born with an amazing ear and can sail through anything with it". I believe I stated I remember when there was no tab and that it sucked because I spent alot of time having to record copy? In another thread awhile I ago I posted that it was easier to "be a good mechanic on your instrument than a real artist". I have relative pitch, as do most musicians. We all have the same amazing ear if you work with it and stay with it, what ever I have is from a lot of hours of hard work that is still continuing.

I don’t care what your friends have to say because they aren’t saying much, they also don’t sound like music teachers or even gigging parrots?

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

My 2nd Response:
On Reflection: The above response is needlessly provacative and insulting so I should delete it. But "What the ***k .... it's true.

My 3rd Response:
Reasoned Response: John has posted extremely insightful, well reasoned, balanced comments that take into account his years of experience tempered by an understanding that there are no absolutes in music. For free, he's posted material for which he could easily charge big bucks. I fail to see why this would insite a barage of insults and self-congratulatory claptrap.

My 4th Response:
"You get more flys with honey than with vinegar"
Esther, my grandmother

My 5th Response:
I regret it wholeheartedly every time I dive into one of these threads yet somehow I can't stop myself. Is there a forum 12-step program, b0b?

Lord, I resembled a few of these on the roster myself!

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I guess your taking your own advice by editing your "look like a jerk statements" out.

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Nope, left that one in. Along with the agreement that tab with notation is helpful, and tab has it's place. Man, this was fun

[This message was edited by Pop Psychology Victim John McGann on 05 July 2006 at 03:02 PM.]

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I taught her the blues scale and invited her to sit in with a blues-rock band I was playing with, and she had a great time, and told me later it was the first time she had ever tried to inprovise, and loved it. She said that she learned more that night (and had more fun playing) than in the previous 10 years, and agreed that there was something very definitely lacking in her musical education.

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Mike, you have given your friend a wonderful gift that she will treasure always.