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Author
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Topic: Using a Compressor Live
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Andrew Waegel
Member From: Berkeley CA USA
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posted 08 February 2002 01:31 PM
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Hello,I know this has been talked about on the forum before but I wanted to revisit - do you use a compressor live? What's a good one? Anyone use the mythical FMR RNC live? Alesis 3630? I used a little stomp box compressor a while ago and is screwed up my nice ShoBud sound so much I chucked it right away. These days I play with my amp louder and volume pedal lower because I like the tone and sustain, only my dynamic range now seems out of control. When I pick softly it's nice and soft but when I pick harder it gets way too loud way too fast. Probably the right thing to do is just get more practice with my pick hand and volume pedal foot, but I'm curious as to others' experiences. Thanks! - Handy Andy |
LARRY COLE
Member From: COLUMBUS, OHIO, USA
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posted 08 February 2002 01:41 PM
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I use the Alesis 3630. Can't beat it and the price is right too. I think Musicians Friend has them real cheap right now too.You can't put them between your steel and amp. They have to run at line level. A lot of people complain about the noise of line level effects when using them before the preamp. ------------------
LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60
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Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 08 February 2002 02:35 PM
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I never used to use compression on the steel and then I put my Goodrich volume pedal on a pedalboard with my boss compressor, ProCo rat and Boss digital delay mainly for using when playing 6-string regular guitar and started using it (the pedalboard) with pedal steel too for convenience. I like the compressor with standard guitar but for steel it's a little weird. It thins the tone out quite a bit and although it effectively increases (apparant) sustain, somehow the whole effect is annoying. Less compression just seems to not help the sustain and still changes the tone a bit. I stopped using it on the steel and besides the tone being better it's much easier for me to get into what I'm doing without the annoyance of the compressor.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 08 February 2002 at 02:36 PM.] |
Dave Robbins
Member From: Nashville, Tnn. USA
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posted 08 February 2002 02:54 PM
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I use a compressor from time to time. I have a little pedal board set up that I use for some things that has a Boss Compressor/Sustainer. I like the 3630 too. But, I don't use a compressor for "compression" sake. It seems to work much better when used more as a "line levelor" or "peak" limiter. I also use it "after" the volume pedal in my affects board instead of directly out of the guitar. The uses for a compressor with steel can be completely different from that used with a lead guitar.Dave |
Matt Steindl
Member From: New Orleans, LA, USA
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posted 08 February 2002 03:28 PM
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Technically if you use a volume pedal, you are using a compressor. it is like "hand limiting" eg. riding a fader and moving it down on loud prts and raising it on soft parts.Sorry about the semantics!!!!!!!! ------------------
Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 08 February 2002 04:44 PM
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I can see an application for maybe using one when you're recording. But playing live? I really prefer the dynamics that a volume pedal can give you. You're right Andy...my advice would be to learn to use the foot pedal properly, and then you can eliminate that compressor-gadget!Every additional "gadget" you use is just another potential source of noise and tone changes, as well as other problems. |
Larry Behm
Member From: Oregon City, Oregon
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posted 08 February 2002 05:26 PM
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Andrew get a Hilton volume pedal, adjust it so that it is always on. The tone will not change as you get louder, and your volume will not be as drastic of a change.Larry Behm
503-722-7562 |
Bill Crook
Member From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance
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posted 09 February 2002 06:37 AM
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I have a 3630 in my rackmount rig but do not use it all the time. It is great for them heavey notes and as it has a very nice sustain feature,I find that it can often fill out a dead spot when needed !!
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Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 09 February 2002 01:09 PM
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Matt and Donny, sorry but I gotta disagree with the "compressor is the same thing as a volume pedal" logic. Yes in theory a compressor supposedly does the same basic function but in real use they are not the same. When a compressor is set at a low level it may be a bit more comparable to a volume pedal but still it won't have near the dynamic range you have with your volume pedal. When the level of compression is increased, it becomes a very effective limiter, a volume pedal does not have this effect. With no compression, pick hard and play a loud note. Don't move your volume pedal and lightly play a very soft note. You hear the difference in volume. Put a compressor in-line with enough compression to "notice" it, and do it again. Depending on how much compression is dialed in, you'll hear only a slight or maybe even NO difference in level between the two. This is the real difference between a volume pedal and a compressor, not to mention the thinning effect it has on the tone. This limiting effect is used to death on most Nashville-cut 6-string lead guitar tracks now, but for steel it's not really needed. As I said before I use it with 6-string but with steel it's more annoying than anything else, for me. I just want to show that a compressor is a different animal. Considering a volume pedal as the same as a compressor is like saying a Piper Cub is the same as a Lear Jet, since both fly and take you from A to B. Well, maybe almost  [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 09 February 2002 at 01:11 PM.] |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 09 February 2002 03:13 PM
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Sure Jim, no problem. The world would would be a boring place if we all had the same opinions!  But on the other hand, our music would become boring, too, if all our notes lacked dynamics. This is why CD's usually sound "flat"...they lack dynamics, that nether-world between pianissimo and mezzo-forte. Studios today crank in a lot of compression to raise the mean program levels. The same is true with commercials, they're loaded with compression. That's why they're both attention-getting...and annoying! On straight guitar, they're acceptable some of the time, and helpful for certain rock sounds. But, even there (if overused) they can rob you of both dynamics and expression. |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 09 February 2002 08:26 PM
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned that Buddy Emmons uses (or used to use) a compressor. As he describes in the Q&A session at the end of the Live in Denver CD, it's the first effect after his volume pedal. It's an MXR compressor that he said used to distort but he altered it a little bit. |
Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 09 February 2002 10:29 PM
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I agree with you, Danny! Well, with your last post. Too much compression is only good for a background fill, a little compression isn't too bad but as you say, on the steel a little compression really isn't needed, the volume pedal can do it well enough without it. No argument there...I was just meaning to point out that compressors and volume pedals aren't interchangable, but you probably weren't exactly saying that either. If Buddy E has or is using a compressor there's no doubt he found something in it to give him a particular sound he was looking for and we all know he wouldn't crank it up til everything comes out a flat volume......Anyway...OK, I'll shuttup now! [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 09 February 2002 at 10:32 PM.] |
Dave Robbins
Member From: Nashville, Tnn. USA
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posted 10 February 2002 12:18 AM
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The Denver album mentioned was from back in '82. Buddy's set up has no doubt "changed countless times" since. I know that he has in the past used the "Dyno-a-Comp" and also the "Orange Squeezer", and in the '90's I seen him use a "3630" and since then a "Boss compressor". Buddy has used compression many times, but I think he uses it rather subtly, to add a little sustain and maybe some "line leveling"(?). Don't know that he has been using a compressor of late, though. "BUDDY"
if your reading, maybe you could give us all a few tips on the way you like to use a compressor. Dave[This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 10 February 2002 at 12:23 AM.] |
Richard Sinkler
Member From: Fremont, California
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posted 10 February 2002 08:15 AM
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I used to use an MXR compressor for effect. What I would do is set the controls so that if I picked the string hard, you would hear the compressor pulling the volume down. This would get close to the sound of a tele or strat player "popping" (don't know how to really describe the sound) his strings when playing. Kind of like a Roy Nichols sound. When not using it, I would unplug it from the guitar. I used to use a 1/4" male to male adapter to plug it directly into my guitar making it easy to remove without have to bend down to the floor.------------------
Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler |
Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 10 February 2002 10:29 AM
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That's how I use mine on my 6 string, and what I had in mind when I started using it with steel, but then discovered it was thinning my tone too much. If it didn't, I might use it not turned up too much on the steel. It's a Boss CS-3. Anyone else with a CS-3 that also causes a big thinning of their tone? I could have sworn mine didn't use to do this, maybe something's changing inside, componant drifting off of its' value or something. |
Michael Brebes
Member From: Northridge CA
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posted 11 February 2002 09:15 AM
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I also use the Boss compressor, but haven't found it to mess with the tone and is a bit more subtle. That's why I used it with the steel. I've got a DynaComp in my guitar pedal rig, which does mess with the tone but in a pleasing way for regular six strings. |
Paul McClure
Member From: Penfield, NY, USA
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posted 11 February 2002 10:12 AM
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I also use a Boss Compressor/Sustainer (CS3) (before that an Ibanez compressor). I've always liked what it does for my Sho-Bud (Pro II from ~1890). The compressor never "thinned" my tone - it gives me more consistent fullness across the strings. It "fattens" up my high strings and subdues my low ones a little. The extra sustain helps on the high strings too.
I just got a Hilton volume pedal - which I like - but I'm having a tough time getting my effects (CS3 and DD5) adjusted to work nicely with the volume pedal - still working on that. Are you using other things along with your CS3? |
Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 11 February 2002 07:45 PM
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For my 6-string guitar I run the guitar into the CS3, that goes into the Rat, that's plugged into a Boss DD-5 delay, that feeds into my Goodrich and that's plugged into my amp. So for guitar, that's comparatively few effects. I bought a Boss SE-50 some years back and hated it and gave it away, I can't stand effects that don't have a true bypass, I need them to at least sound like they do. I put the stompboxes and pedal on a board while I was playing 6-string lead, it all sounded pretty good to me. When I started playing steel again I figured I'd just use the same stuff and slid the board so the volume pedal's in place, even when playing mostly steel I do a few songs on 6 string and just take my plug from the steel and plug it into the 6 string and then I have my usual effects. At first it seemed OK, but as I said I didn't like the compression as much for the steel as the 6 string. One day while practicing at home with the effects (since they're stuck there with the volume pedal anyway) I got to experimenting, I unplugged everything except the compressor but left the compressor in the "bypass" (not a true bypass) so the compression effect was off, but still running through the box and played, then unplugged the compressor and plugged straight into the amp. What a difference. Then I plugged back into the Rat, DD5 and volume pedal, and compared that with straight-in. No difference. The compressor definitely thins the tone, gives it a solid-state preamp kind of sound - which I suppose shouldn't be too surprising since that's exactly what the CS3 is, when it's inline even when the compression is switched off...I'm not sure if it has always done this and I didn't notice it before with guitar or if it's just started doing something. It's the same whether I use the A.C. adapter or a battery. It's very subtle, slight, but definite. Enough to be the difference between good tone and great tone. For me that's too much. The compressor works fine, I don't think there's anything wrong with it (wanna buy it?) I just think this is something I never noticed before. At the time I bought it I had 13 guitars, all new (or used but new to me) and wasn't accustomed to what they would have sounded like with and without the CS3. The DD5 doesn't do it, even though it's Boss like the CS3, maybe it's got a different type of amp in it.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 11 February 2002 at 07:59 PM.] |
Dave Robbins
Member From: Nashville, Tnn. USA
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posted 12 February 2002 10:30 AM
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Jim,
I sometimes use the "CS-3". While it may not be my first choice, it is good to use for a portible and inexpensive option. I know there is two versions of the same compressor. One that only has three knobs and a later version that has four knobs. I use the later four knob version. But, I don't use a lot of compression, and actually probably use it more like a limiter type effect. I don't want the "compressed" or squeezed type of sound for the steel, but just want it to subtly catch the stronger notes and maybe add a little sustain in the process. While I know that a lot of people who use it between the guitar and volume pedal, I prefer to use it after the pedal, so it can gradually come into play when I get deep into the pedal (remember, when they use it on us in the studio it is after everything!). Now, some poeple keep a lot of volume in reserve and if they do, they are never going to find the compressor's effect this way. I keep a little volume in reserve, but play closer to the top or "full" volume position. This helps in keeping a more consistant signal to the compressor this way. Another thing I have found is that anything which increases your steel's signal is going to have an effect on the compressor. Our steels have a lot higher output that say a guitar would have, and consequently will drive the compressor harder. I have noticed that the "SteelDriver" has this effect on a compressor because it can boost the signal. This can "dirty-up" the sound by beginning to slightly overdrive the op-amp in the compressor. For this reason, I have stopped using any thing that will add gain to the signal before a compressor. In place of the SteelDriver, I will sometimes use the RV-3 turned off right out of the steel (before the volume pedal) which will give me a cleaner signal without adding boost (a trick Buddy once showed me!). I have found that the compressor seems to work better that way and sound better. There is such a difference in the output of our steels as compared to the guitar that it is hard to use the same effects with the same settings. Seperate systems are still the way to go. By the way, I have trouble finding "any" compressor that doesn't "over react" to the steel's high output level. I think higher quality and more expensive units react much better.(Afterall, they have been used in the studios for years with out us steel players even realizing they were there! Just ask the engineers. For "live" the more subtle the compressor the better the dynamics! Dave |
Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 12 February 2002 01:18 PM
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Dave, I agree with everything you say and have had the same experience concerning compressors but remember my main complaint about the CS3 is that even with the unit in the "OFF" position, the unit changes the tone of the steel or guitar. There just isn't anything that can be done about that, except not using it. I have the one with 4 knobs also.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 12 February 2002 at 04:01 PM.] |
Dave Robbins
Member From: Nashville, Tnn. USA
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posted 13 February 2002 01:32 AM
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Jim,
I can honestly say I haven't noticed the tone change in my CS-3 that you are apparently experiencing. But, I will re-check mine again and make sure. I do know that some effects do degrade tone. I usually go through everything that I use and check specifically for this problem. I found that my CE-5 (chorus ensemble) has an affect on the sound no matter where it is located in the chain. So,I now have it safely sitting in an out of the way location (in other words, I don't use it unless I have to). I found that the Orange squeezer affected the tone, but so did the MXR Dyno-comp. Here again, a higher quality unit may be necessary unless some type of op amp or something might be used in front of it to help with the sound. You might try moving your CS-3 to other locations within your effects line and see if it helps. If not, it is either a bad unit or simply affecting tone, as you say. I'll check mine and get back. It may just be the nature of these inexpensive units. I have noticed that excessive compression does have an affect on the sound, but you said that yours evens affects the sound when it is off. I'll check out mine and get back to you. Maybe someone else on this forum knows of a better compressor that is also inexpensive as well. (wouldn't that be nice?)Dave |
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