Steel Guitar Strings
Strings & instruction for lap steel, Hawaiian & pedal steel guitars
http://SteelGuitarShopper.com
Ray Price Shuffles
Classic country shuffle styles for Band-in-a-Box, by BIAB guru Jim Baron.
http://steelguitarmusic.com

This Forum is CLOSED.
Go to bb.steelguitarforum.com to read and post new messages.


  The Steel Guitar Forum
  Electronics
  New take on live music amplification from Bose

Post New Topic  
your profile | join | preferences | help | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   New take on live music amplification from Bose
Jerry Gleason
Member

From: Eugene, Oregon

posted 30 October 2003 11:11 PM     profile     
Bose has an unusual new product that they claim will change the way live music is amplified. No more monitors, mains, or instrument amps. Here's Harmony-Central's blurb about it:
http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2003/Cylindrical-Radiator.html

Or read about it on the Bose website: http://www.bose.com/musicians

I'm skeptical, but the concept sounds interesting. What do you think?

[This message was edited by Jerry Gleason on 30 October 2003 at 11:22 PM.]

rpetersen
Member

From: Tipton, Iowa

posted 31 October 2003 05:36 AM     profile     
Does sound too good - I don't see how someone across the floor can hear it as you could 3 feet away from it?? - I didn't read it in depth, but are they recomending just 1 speaker on stage?

------------------
Ron Petersen &
The Keep'n Tyme Band

Joey Ace
Sysop

From: Southern Ontario, Canada

posted 31 October 2003 06:04 AM     profile     
I'm skeptical too.

I sure seems like a cool idea.
(it also looks like a toaster)

Erv Niehaus
Member

From: Litchfield, MN, USA

posted 31 October 2003 06:55 AM     profile     
I ordered a Bose radio once. Most overpriced piece of plastic junk I ever saw! I returned it and got my money back, though.
Tim Whitlock
Member

From: Arvada, CO, USA

posted 31 October 2003 07:43 AM     profile     
The concept appears to be a personal PA system for each player in the band. You plug in your instrument and vocal mic into the powered speaker and it radiates your sound from your location on the stage. The cylindrical design of the speaker appears to function as both main and monitor for each band member.

From what I'm seeing, it seems that you are supposed to leave your Twin/Peavy/whatever guitar amp at home and run your guitar and vocals through this thing together. Or perhaps you bring a smaller amp, say a Deluxe instead of the Twin, and mic or line it through the system. Looks very interesting and I would like to see a demonstration. Each band member would need one and at $1600 - $1800 per member it would be a bit pricey for your average local band. If you could get your Tele player to leave his super loud amp at home, you might have something here.

Ben Slaughter
Member

From: Madera, California

posted 31 October 2003 10:38 AM     profile     
We'd all have to get pretty good with "direct" set ups, PODs or whatever. I still dig the tone coming from my twin and NV400.
Terry Edwards
Member

From: Layton, UT

posted 31 October 2003 11:32 AM     profile     
"Music coming from all directions on stage".

Sounds like a recipe for feedback disaster!

Terry

Alan Kirk
Member

From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA

posted 01 November 2003 07:20 AM     profile     
Bose has offered other overpriced "Emporer's new clothes" products in the past. My parents have one of those overpriced radios.

[This message was edited by Alan Kirk on 02 November 2003 at 05:54 AM.]

George Kimery
Member

From: Limestone, TN, USA

posted 01 November 2003 07:54 AM     profile     
I have had Bose 802 PA speakers for many years and have been extremely happy with them. Reading further into this new thing here,it does have both line in and mic in inputs so you can either run your amp direct into it or use a mic in front of your amp. They offer a 90 day money back guarantee and will even pay the shipping back if not satisfied. It says they will be available from Guitar Centers later in the year. I am not in the market for one, but I am very curious as to what musicians take on it will be. I am very skeptical, but it's not over until the fat lady sings.
Mark van Allen
Member

From: loganville, Ga. USA

posted 01 November 2003 12:38 PM     profile     
I've been invited to the Bose product demo for these things here in Atlanta tomorrow night, I'll post on what I find out.

------------------
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

[This message was edited by Mark van Allen on 01 November 2003 at 12:38 PM.]

Mark van Allen
Member

From: loganville, Ga. USA

posted 02 November 2003 07:51 PM     profile     
Just back from the product demo and I'm very impressed. They are really onto something here. The system itself is a new kind of sound radiator, really does sound almost the same 40 feet away as it does on stage. You can walk right up to it with the mic wide open, no feedback. Each unit has four inputs and a remote mixing pad the size of a TV remote for levels and EQ changes, very slick. The demo they did with a live 7 piece (!) band went from whisper quiet solo acoustic fingerpicking to full blown all out blues jamming within the same song, totally dynamic, with no adjustments to the setup, and you could hear every instrument great. There's a lot to the concept, mainly that our now traditional 3 way system uses a backline of instrument amps, monitors for onstage performers, and front main single point speakers that a) have no relation to each other, ie: your monitor mix is not what the main mix is like, b) create all kinds of added reverb and feedback effects from three systems all bouncing off different walls etc. and c) confuse the audience by having all the sound mixed together from one location (nearest speaker stack) rather than from the direction of the actual performer. The soundman is mixing your audience mix, not the performers, who in turn are hearing whatever's in their own monitors from that speaker instead of the location of the other musicians. The rather apt analogy used was as if a painter were making a painting, but every time he lifted the brush someone else grabbed his hand and made the stroke, and the whole time he had his head turned away from the painting anyway. It really sounded phenomenal, and it was a treat to hear the instruments and vocals coming from the actual direction of the performer. The demo was in a medium sized room, and the sound was often very present and powerful, what would normally be way too loud (on a standard system) but yet never got harsh or fatiguing, just clear, vibrant, solid and powerful. The bass and drums were sharing (!) a unit with the added small subwoofer, and sounded just great, thick and powerful, yet detailed. I really think for the average small to medium size band that carries their own PA (wedding bands, small lounges, clubs, outdoor gigs,etc.) this would be a total no brainer, way less gear to carry, much shorter setup time, phenomenal clarity and a great mix easy as pie. The problem would be selling the larger venues on the idea. I can just see walking into one of the places I frequently play that have a big house PA, staff front-of-house sound man and monitor guy and trying to get them to leave all that stuff shut off..! But maybe if they heard the system they'd make an exception for the band that had it. The other problem I see is it's designed from the idea that the bandmembers actually want to hear each other and interact musically. I can see any jazz combo digging this for instance. But many of the bands I've played with have one or more members who, honestly, don't really want to hear anyone other than themselves. These folks would never go for this system where the idea is that the sound onstage is pretty much the same as that in the house. How many singers have you guys worked with who would be satisfied with hearing themselves blended in with the band? A folk or bluegrass band that's used to jamming unamplified would absolutely love this setup. But I dunno about the Shania and Hat Singer types. I do think you're going to see a lot of Casual type bands using a system like this soon.

------------------
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Earnest Bovine
Member

From: Los Angeles CA USA

posted 02 November 2003 08:15 PM     profile     
What if the bass player likes to play too loud?
John Floyd
Member

From: Somewhere between Camden County , NC and Saluda S.C.

posted 02 November 2003 09:27 PM     profile     
Put this in his amp

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 02 November 2003 at 09:28 PM.]

Tim Whitlock
Member

From: Arvada, CO, USA

posted 04 November 2003 07:53 AM     profile     
Mark - Thanks for your review, very enlightening. I really like the concept of giving the musicians control over the sound that's going out. I've rarely been satisfied with onstage mixes under the standard set up. Even with the best equipment, I always feel a disconnection between what I'm playing and what the audience might be hearing. In the demonstration you attended, did anyone use a personal amp for their instrument, or was everything run directly through the Bose units? I just wonder how us guitar/steel players will be able to get our tone through the Bose alone (no rhyme intended). It seems it would handle acoustic instruments (including drums), vocals, keys and bass very well. Thanks - Tim
Glenn Suchan
Member

From: Austin, Texas

posted 04 November 2003 10:36 AM     profile     
Mark,

Thanks for taking the time to report on this system. I have some questions. Did the Bose reps explain the application of this system in large venues with relatively high ambient sound levels? ie. A large, boomy, indoor venue filled with let's say, 10 to 15,000 rowdy, audience members? I question the cylindrical radiator's ability to broadcast controllable sound (consistant decibel peaks) in such an environment. Furthermore, would band members be able to hear themselves accurately in such an environment?

Another point: While the cylindrical radiator may provide realistic (apparent) stage monitoring for band members. Rarely, do band members want to hear sonically and directionally accurate sound from their reference point in monitors. Most want to exclude or attenuate certain aspects. I personally believe, professional quality, individual, stereo ear monitors supported by a good stereo mixing board provide everything needed to simulate each band member's monitoring preference, simultaneously with studio-quality results and repeatability.

My remarks are made solely as objective inquiries. They are not intended to "bash" Bose product developement.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
www.kevinfowler.com

Mark van Allen
Member

From: loganville, Ga. USA

posted 04 November 2003 11:26 AM     profile     
EB, the bass player at this demo was pretty loud in the mix, but it sounded just great to me. At first I thought the lead vocals needed to come up, but the more I listened the more I realized how present and "in the mix" they were. I could almost envision the soundman's job changing to helping set up and balance the system, and then just listening and cueing the onstage musicians to further balance this or that. They sure seemed to have it well balanced though.

TW- The bass player went through an nice Avalon preamp straight into the Bose unit. The drummer used the same unit with kick and snare running into the unit's own mic pres. One guitarist used a pedal board into a line 6 POD into the unit line in, and got all the tones you could imagine. The other guitarist used a tiny boutique 1/2 watt amp in a rack, miked into the bose unit, sounded huge and killer. If you wanted different vocal effects from song to song, that might take a separate rack unit or one of the vocal floor pedals they now make. I would think any of the Evans, Walker, Peavey etc. steel guitar preamps would sound just great through these things.

GS- the product rep (system designer) said they were aiming for and had succesfully used the system in up to 700 seat venues. I don't think the system would carry enough for a larger venue. I had the same other questions you did- I do think this would be fantastic for a small combo band who actually want to hear each other accurately. It was certainly loud enough on stage to compete with a full drum kit, as far as stage monitoring, and the band does hear exactly what the audience hears, which to me would be a good thing. I've run into so many players who don't want to hear each other at blended volume, and want their own monitors extremely hyped in some way- and I think they'd have a lot of adjusting to do. When I first started playing with John Berry, he always carried his own little monitor rack and two wedges, set it up himself and every gig would be absolutely blasting him and his guitar from center stage back at the band. We never needed any of him in the monitors until we got onto huge stages in the sheds. In-ear monitors are certainly accurate and clean if you spend enough $ but I do feel they really contribute to musical and creative isolation onstage. The bandleader in Blueground Undergrass used to go over and look at the knobs on the monitor board and ask me angrily how I could play with so little of him in my mix. I'd explain that since I was always set up right next to the stage left stacks, I could hear his vocal and banjo (!) just fine from the bleed. He always thought I was just dissing him. Such are the vagaries of monitor fun.

[This message was edited by Mark van Allen on 04 November 2003 at 11:28 AM.]

Mark van Allen
Member

From: loganville, Ga. USA

posted 04 November 2003 11:33 AM     profile     
Oh, yeah, one other really cool thing about the Bose presentation, they use a multi-media screen with interview footage and a sort-of history of stage amplification and monitoring as a central part of the presentation. Several photos and soundbites of classic lap steels are prominently featured, and there's a mention of Western Swing being one of the prime venues for the growth of stage and monitor amplification, with a great movie and sound clip featuring steel. I got off on that. The designer also told me he was a steel nut and couldn't wait to hear a band with steel through the system. Not enough of a nut to give me an endorsement rig though...
Glenn Suchan
Member

From: Austin, Texas

posted 04 November 2003 12:46 PM     profile     
Mark, thanks for your reply. Although this system may not apply to all sound reinforcement situations, it seems to be fairly innovative for small to moderate sized applications. If nothing else, Bose has a constantly evolving product line. Best wishes to them for the success of this system.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
www.kevinfowler.com

All times are Pacific (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Pedal Steel Pages

Note: Messages not explicitly copyrighted are in the Public Domain.

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46

Our mailing address is:
The Steel Guitar Forum
148 South Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Support the Forum