Steel Guitar Strings
Strings & instruction for lap steel, Hawaiian & pedal steel guitars
http://SteelGuitarShopper.com
Ray Price Shuffles
Classic country shuffle styles for Band-in-a-Box, by BIAB guru Jim Baron.
http://steelguitarmusic.com

This Forum is CLOSED.
Go to bb.steelguitarforum.com to read and post new messages.


  The Steel Guitar Forum
  Electronics
  Your Favorite 12AY7 or 12AU7?

Post New Topic  
your profile | join | preferences | help | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Your Favorite 12AY7 or 12AU7?
Dennis Detweiler
Member

From: Solon, Iowa, US

posted 16 April 2005 08:58 AM     profile     

It seems like there are more brand choices in AU. If you've done some past or recent experimenting with preamp tubes, which brand seems to bring out the better results (warmth, tone, clean, etc) for a tube steel amp/preamp?
Thanks
Dennis
Dave Mudgett
Member

From: Central Pennsylvania, USA

posted 16 April 2005 10:13 AM     profile     
The choice of tube is dependent on ones taste and also the circuit it's in. Here is a list of common 7-pin dual/mini preamp tube gains and their gain-ratios to each other:



Gain Ratio Relative to
Tube Gain 12AU7 12AV7 12AY7 12AT7 5751 12AX7
12AU7 19 1.00 0.46 0.42 0.32 0.27 0.19
12AV7 41 2.15 1.00 0.91 0.68 0.58 0.41
12AY7 45 2.37 1.10 1.00 0.75 0.64 0.45
12AT7 60 3.16 1.46 1.33 1.00 0.85 0.60
5751 70 3.68 1.71 1.56 1.17 1.00 0.70
12AX7 100 5.26 2.44 2.22 1.67 1.43 1.00



So, reading the table, the 12AU7 has 0.42 the gain of the 12AY7, and inversely, the 12AY7 has 2.37 the gain of the 12AU7.

In general, if you find your amp distorting too much, try moving to a lower-gain tube. If the amp sounds weak, try a higher gain tube. It's all a matter of what sounds good to your ears.

That said, most 6-stringers like 12AX7 tubes, since they are higher gain and can more easily overdrive succeeding tube stages. This is also why NOS 12AX7s are so hard to find and expensive, there are lotsa guitar players out there using them up. On the other hand, 12AU7s are not very popular except for tube Hi-Fi, and are fairly plentiful and not too expensive. For steel, 12AU7s can be useful if you want to tame a hot circuit. Myself, I often use 5751s and 12AY7s in old Fenders for steel, like in my Deluxe Reverb or Dual Showman Reverb.

This is decidedly one of the major advantages of tube amps - you can easily change the sound and distortion characteristics of your amp by doing intelligent preamp tube substitution. Obviously, this doesn't apply so easily to power tube substitution.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 16 April 2005 at 10:18 AM.]

Jon Light
Member

From: Brooklyn, NY

posted 16 April 2005 10:24 AM     profile     
That's a good post, Dave, with good overview info. But just to cut Dennis a break so he doesn't have to try to find a diplomatic way to say that he knows all of that but.....I know where he's coming from and I know that he knows all that----it's just a question about preferences in brand names, NOS, currently manufactured, whatever. And no, I don't have anything of value to contribute although I did buy a couple of Amperex AU7's on Ebay that were microphonic as hell but I don't take that as any kind of indicator--as we all know, it's a crap shoot. I had an Amperex Bugle Boy AX7 that was the sweetest tube I had found and I blew it up trying to swap it out in a live amp. Dumbass.
Hope you don't take this wrong, Dave---good post.
Dave Mudgett
Member

From: Central Pennsylvania, USA

posted 16 April 2005 12:22 PM     profile     
No offense taken, thanks for being polite, but no need to be too diplomatic. I took the post to also ask preference between AY7 and AU7, which in my view far outweighs small differences in brands.

On the question of brands, I've certainly tried a lot of different brands - again I argue it depends on the circuit and ones preferences, not to mention the price. In old Fenders, I tend to like the American-made JAN Philips/Sylvania or GE tubes if they're available. The GE tubes seem to have a slightly softer, more compressed sound overall to me, where the Philips/Sylvania tubes overall tend to be a bit less so. But honestly, these things vary from run to run and from tube to tube, making generalities very difficult, IMO.

Right now, Angela Instruments has 80s Sylvania 6189W (industrial 12AU7) very reasonable (< $10 per tube - I'm probably gonna grab some while I can), RCAs (also a good choice) twice that, all the way up to Mullards and Amperex Bugle Boys, which I think are over-rated and $50 a pop. I think 12AU7, with its low gain, is the least sensitive to brand. I'm much more concerned with microphonics. Since brands like Mullard and Amperex are getting in very short supply, I think it's much more likely to get a dud. Let's face it, we're getting to the bottom of the barrel.

On 12AY7s, that's getting tougher, they're used a lot in Tweed Fenders, so they're getting harder to find. I have a GE 12AY7 that Angela sells for $25 apiece now in the front end of my Deluxe Reverb and the GE 5751 that he sells for $27 apiece in my Dual Showman Reverb front end. I really like the sound, and I bought these when they were less than $10 apiece.

But I'll try different brands if they're reasonable, and I can almost always find an application for them if they're good examples, not microphonic, etc. On non-12AX7 preamp tubes, I still think it's better to use NOS, but that will probably not continue much longer as the supply of good ones continues to get used. I honestly believe it's ones preferences and the circuit that dictate what tube should be used, and there's no one best answer. I don't use outboard tube preamps, so I can't comment there at all. Finally, all of this strictly IMO. I already made my caveat that I think it's more important to get a good example of a NOS tube than some specific brand. YMMV.

Dennis Detweiler
Member

From: Solon, Iowa, US

posted 16 April 2005 09:47 PM     profile     
My specific experimental unit is a rack mount Peavey Stereo Tube Sweetener. It calls for three 12AX7 tubes, which creates too much harmonics. When playing chords above the 12th fret, the 3rds create a background octave. When a 3rd is raised or lowered with a pedal, the harmonic counterpoints.
Each side has an input tube. And a single tube pushes both output sides (left and right). An AT7 at the input and an AX7 at the output, it is cleaner. An AY7 is even better, but cuts the power and adds a little more noise (hum and white). I've tried a few different brands. The Jan AT7 is a little bright. The Chinese tubes seemed bland. Sovtek AX7LPS and JJ AX7 sound good in the output. I have a 1960's RCA 12AX7A that sounds a little warmer and punchier.
I put an EH AY7 at the input and the combination sounds better than the others I've tried.
The best tube tone is established by turning the compression knob on the Tube Sweetener full on and bringing the resulting "mid cut" back up a little with the amp EQ. I assume this pushes the tubes to the max? I don't have an AU7, so I was wondering if it would be worth a try? There seems to be more AU7 brand choices.
Thanks
Dennis
Brad Sarno
Member

From: St. Louis, MO USA

posted 17 April 2005 06:02 PM     profile     
Dennis. I use a AU7 in the Black Box. I auditioned a bunch of them. The NOS Sylvanias are decent. The NOS RCA's tended to be too brash or bright for steel. The NOS GE sounds great, real meaty. I really like the new JJ/Tesla 12AU7. It is very musical, lively, and has a real sweet top end and a smoothed out midrange. I had a line on lots of old GE's but preferred the JJ overall. I bet a Telefunken would sound great. Also a Mullard. They're pricey though.

Brad

Mark Herrick
Member

From: Los Angeles, CA

posted 18 April 2005 01:31 PM     profile     
I noticed in your chart the (slight) gain difference between the 12AT7 and the 5751. I thought the 5751 was equivalent to the 12AT7.

How much of an effect would this gain difference have if using a 5751 in the reverb driver stage of a Fender amp?

Dennis Detweiler
Member

From: Solon, Iowa, US

posted 18 April 2005 04:31 PM     profile     
Thanks for the recommendations knowledge and advice, everyone.
Brad, I'm looking forward to setting in front of my 1974 Session 400 after I get your upgrade installed. I'll be changing the two front transistors also. This 1974 has always had better tone than any 400's I've used after 74. It should go beyond it's previous high standards.
Thanks
Dennis
Dave Mudgett
Member

From: Central Pennsylvania, USA

posted 18 April 2005 08:39 PM     profile     
Mark, those gains are nominal values. They vary somewhat (sometimes quite a bit) in practice. Really, tubes are a complex product of glass-blowing, vacuum technology, metallurgy, electronic design, and mechanical design. There are dozens of important parameters all trying to be held to tight tolerances. I think that the biggest difference between 5751 and 12AT7 is that the 5751 is an industrial spec tube. My experience is that the noise and tone (frequency response) are often better. If the actual gain is in fact a bit higher, it should drive the reverb pan a bit harder, but that doesn't necessarily make it sound better. I honestly think that the most important factor in reverb tone is to have a good sounding reverb pan and use intelligent trial and error with the tubes. In fact, I think that's the best way to choose tubes in general. I'm often surprised to get very different results, even when comparing two examples of the same exact amp model, such as the many Deluxe Reverbs I've messed with. Once I find the right combination for an important amp, I go out and buy a long-term supply of the tubes before I can't afford them (or even find them) anymore.

All times are Pacific (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Pedal Steel Pages

Note: Messages not explicitly copyrighted are in the Public Domain.

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46

Our mailing address is:
The Steel Guitar Forum
148 South Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Support the Forum