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Author
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Topic: Los Angeles Hilton vol pdl user wanted
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John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 04 May 2006 09:26 AM
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I'm borrowing a Goodrich LDR2 volume pedal from my great friend Tom Bradshaw, and would like to A/B it with the current Hilton vp (I'm buying one or the other this year). Anyone in Southern California who has the Hilton, and who'd like to visit me in my San Pedro home studio for some testing, please email me direct. I'll be playing a Mullen and Carter through a NV400 and a Webb, seeing what sounds best. You can bring your rig, too, if you like.------------------
E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT |
Jim Eaton
Member From: Santa Susana, Ca
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posted 04 May 2006 09:36 AM
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John, I know you will want to do your own testing no matter what I say, but, I just went with the Goodrich LDR2 after trying both. JE:-)> |
Jim Ives
Member From: Los Angeles, California, USA
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posted 04 May 2006 11:02 AM
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John,
You can borrow my Hilton if you'd like.
Jim[This message was edited by Jim Ives on 04 May 2006 at 11:03 AM.] |
David Wren
Member From: Placerville, California, USA
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posted 04 May 2006 02:26 PM
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John, in an earlier FS position I worked in research forestry. I learned the trick to successful research is to do your evalutation, then document two sets of results, one for Goodrich, and one for Hilton  Really just kidding folks.... sounds like a great idea, and I'd be interested in the results. ------------------
Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 04 May 2006 04:36 PM
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I have a Hilton but I've played through a Goodrich at the Carter booth in St Louis. Both sound about the same and if I went on sound only it would be a toss up. But, the "innards" are quite different between the two and as an Electronics Tech and Amp Tech the Hilton's design is far superior. |
ajm
Member From: Los Angeles
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posted 04 May 2006 05:24 PM
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If you haven't thought of it yet, use that home studio (I'm assuming that you have a recorder). Even a cheap cassette deck will work.Set up the gear and record about 4-5 minutes of you or anyone playing something. Then switch the volume pedals and without changing anything, especially mic position, record the same stuff over again. Now you have two copies you can listen to and REALLY compare, instead of just going off of memory and the way that you "think" it sounded. I did this one time with two different pickups. While they both seemed to sound OK when I was playing, when I listened back there was a definite difference.
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Artie McEwan
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John Macy
Member From: Denver, CO USA
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posted 04 May 2006 08:30 PM
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I went back and forth between the LRD and the Hilton for a week on a gig--alternating sets. I went with the Goodrich cause it sounded just a little sweeter to my ear. Been using it for over a year with no problems... They are both fine pedals, though. |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 04 May 2006 11:06 PM
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Thanks for the input, everyone. Artie, I'll be doing just that, taping my playing on my Tascam cassette deck, then seeing what is revealed at playback.Jack Stoner, are you an Amp Tech with the knowledge to understand the "under the hood" differences? Is the infrared basis of the Hilton superior to whatever the Goodrich uses? I'm still a little wary of any pedal that plugs in, I suffered with the old Edwards light beam pedal for years, not knowing how much tone it sucked out until I bought my first Goodrich. I know neither of these VP's will do that, but I'm pitting them against my best and cleanest Goodrich. I'll announce the winner when my testing is done. Jim Ives, I'll take you up on your offer! Is your Hilton the latest model? Thanks. Let's schedule that. If you'll come down here to my place for testing, I'd gladly offer a free lesson for your troubles, if that's of any interest to you. Bring your Zum, too, let's have the Mullen and Zum and my Carter all go head to head! |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 05 May 2006 03:11 AM
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I don't have much on the internal operation of the Goodrich but it is not the "infrared" approach that Keith uses. But, that is standard Goodrich to keep everything as secret as possible. I've seen the insides of many Goodrich products and every one had some component part numbers obliterated. If you look inside a Hilton there is nothing "hidden".One big plus with the infrared is that daylight has no affect on it. I've seen two posts, on here, about problems with the Goodrich pedal when playing outdoors in bright sunlight. I also know the components that Keith is using are the "high end" components - nothing was spared. Same way with his power supply/regulation (what is inside the pedal) - it is engineered to the point it's almost "overkill" just to make sure it's reliable. The problems with the old "light beam" pedals have been eliminated. You don't have to concerned about that. |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 08 May 2006 11:41 AM
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Jack, is the Goodrich LDR, then, just an updated light beam pedal? And is that inherently inferior to infrared?I do have both loaner pedals arriving soon, so with some friends I'll be A/B'ing both, and will file a full report here, or probably in a new thread, or both. |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 09 May 2006 03:08 AM
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John, I can't answer that as I haven't been into the electronics on a Goodrich. There are none in this area and no one that plays at our Florida Steel Guitar Club jams has one (the ones that have electronic pedals all have Hilton's). But the "LDR" designation would suggest it uses a "Light Dependent Resistor" amd if that is true (and I don't know that it is - just an assumption) it is not the old "light beam" approach but LDR's have been around since at least the 60's.The Hilton approach is patented, according to Keith and the Hilton was the first to have the 3 adjustment pots for tone, max volume and "turn off" point. |
John Groover McDuffie
Member From: California, USA
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posted 09 May 2006 09:08 AM
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I'd be interested in attending this VP shootout, even though I'm strictly a passive user. (who knows, it might change my mind) |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 09 May 2006 01:10 PM
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Both loaner pedals have been arranged for. McDuffie, I have 2 co-testers already joining my in my teeny studio, so I'm afraid I can't squeeze more steel guitar scientists in there, I'm sorry. But I'll be testing both against each other, and both against my cleanest pot Goodrich, and full reports will be filed back here.I also hope to get hold of a laptop that we can record directly into for purest sound. My Goodrich pedal had always been fine (and still is) until a session recording direct into a PC, when the least little scratchiness became abhorrent. So we'll see how all pedals fare under those conditions, hopefully. Jack Stoner, thanks for all the input. |
Dean Parks
Member From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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posted 09 May 2006 02:04 PM
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John-It might be good to have a Black Box buffer amp to try with the pot pedal... part of the sound of both light pedals is the buffering. Also, check for the shape of the volume "ramp", or whatever you call it. -dean-[This message was edited by Dean Parks on 09 May 2006 at 02:07 PM.] |
Mike Fried
Member From: Nashville, TN, USA
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posted 10 May 2006 04:55 PM
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Hi John, my old friend, I've been using the Hilton pedal for over a year now and couldn't be happier with it. I was really skeptical about using an active pedal right up until I first plugged it in. Aside from the silky-smooth feel and response, it improved the string separation and low-end definition of every steel I've played through it. I can't speak to the Goodrich version, but the Hilton is worth every penny I think, wall-wart and all. |
Dean Parks
Member From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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posted 10 May 2006 04:58 PM
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John, one other thing. Would you check and see which pedals do or do not stay parked when you lift your foot? |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 10 May 2006 10:57 PM
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Dean, the tests you request are no problem; just give me time to get an engineering BS, perhaps a Masters while I'm at it...!I simply want to know if there's a discernible audio difference/advantage between the 2 volume pedals; both are highly touted here on the Forum. But I'm the curious sort who hates to part with money without a ton of research. Mike, thanks for your Hilton thumbs up. How you doing in Nashville? Tell Bobbe you need a raise and I said so. Tell Gary, too. Jack Stoner: where's the thread with the info about daylight affecting the Goodrich pedal? |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 10 May 2006 10:58 PM
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Hey Jim Eaton,So what made you choose the Goodrich vs the Hilton in your testing? Inquiring minds must know. |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 11 May 2006 02:57 AM
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The comment about the daylight affecting the Goodrich was about a year and a half ago (plus or minus). I dont recall the title of the thread - it wasn't about the daylight affecting, just a comment that someone made that had a Goodrich.BTW, my comments are more as a (retired) amp and electronics tech. I tend to look at the technical as the number 1 requirement for gear. As I said before, I couldn't really tell a difference in tone between the two. I take the same approach to steel guitars - there are some that I wouldn't even consider if I were looking for a new guitar (I'm not) just because I don't like the mechnaical design - not because I don't like the sound of the guitars. |
Jim Eaton
Member From: Santa Susana, Ca
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posted 11 May 2006 09:13 AM
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I think they both are fine units sound wise, in fact I could not "hear" any difference between them tone wise. Both sounded better than my "Pot" pedal and I have used a Goodrich pedal for a good long time and except for the "pot's" wearing out, they have always been high quality products IMHO.
So, in the end I'd say Brand Loyalty was the final reason I went with the LDR2.
JE:-)>------------------
Emmons D10PP 8/4 -75'
Emmons SD-12PP 3/5
Zum SD-12 5/5 - 91'
76'Session 400
86'Nashville 400
06'Nashville 112
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John Groover McDuffie
Member From: California, USA
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posted 11 May 2006 09:29 AM
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"Also, check for the shape of the volume "ramp", or whatever you call it. (dean parks)"Dean, that is called the taper of the pot/pedal. |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 16 May 2006 08:28 PM
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Just got both volume pedals, should do the testing this coming weekend. I hope to find that I like both, maybe just a personal preference thing as to which to use. But me and a couple of steel-playing pals will be as objective and scientific in the evaluation as we can.One question: the Hilton has the expected "Off Point" and "Volume" knobs on the bottom plate; but there's also a "Tone" knob in the middle. Anyone have the scoop on that? Should testing be done with tone at its highest frequency? ------------------
E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 17 May 2006 06:26 AM
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I remember that thraed about sunlight affecting causing problems. The solution was to put a towel over your foot.If possible, please try a direct sunlight test with both pedals. I have a Hilton, and never had problems. Never tried a Goodrich, except for the pot pedal, which I still use. |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 17 May 2006 06:29 AM
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I found the post: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/005282.html It has interesting comments by Keith on his pedal innards. |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 17 May 2006 06:54 AM
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Joey, thanks for the link to the thread about sunlight's effect on the Goodrich LDR. We'll try to test for that.I'm open to suggestions for the testing procedures. Post your suggestions here, or email me direct. Here's my current thinking on what I'm testing for: Basic procedure: record the same song using each vp (Hilton; Goodrich; clean Goodrich pot pedal); record straight into ProTools with NO pedal, then with each pedal; with effects, then without effects; then do the same test playing through a NV400 amp, maybe also my Webb amp; add a Black Box to the testing if anyone locally can loan me one. George L .155 cords will be used for all testing. We'll record all tests, perhaps even make the disc available as sound files for the curious amongst you. My partners in this project will be renowned steel and keyboard player Skip Edwards (Dwight Yoakam, Lisa Haley, The Hellecasters, Buck Owens, a jillion other artists he's worked with), and my buddy Silvio Bello. - smoothness of physical pedal travel on both - does tone change with volume going up or down? - are there tonal differences between them? What? Is there a tone "winner"? - compare tone, pedal action and quietness of both to my cleanest Goodrich pot pedal - are both equally silent when recording direct to ProTools on a PowerBook? Compare this to the pot pedal, too. - does bright sunlight or artificial light affect either pedal? Based on older SGF threads, we expect so on the Goodrich, unless design changes have recently been made. - do the extra controls on both seem handy, hard to use, overkill? Both have little settings on the bottom of the pedals, I believe. Maybe I need to start a Consumer Reports just for steel players? ------------------
E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT |
John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
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posted 17 May 2006 08:04 AM
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Be sure you use the "full frequency input" on the LDR2.Some of the very early LDR's did have a problem in direct sunlight but that was rectified in the later models before the release of the LDR2's. |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 17 May 2006 10:58 AM
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I've been selling and playing both for several years, BOTH are excellent, period.
I also know of other players that own both with no preference. If you don't have one or the other, you need a volumepedal, that's for sure!
Ya' jes gotta'have one or the other! Bobbe |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 17 May 2006 02:54 PM
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That's what I thought, Bobbe.If both are noiseless and add no coloration to the sound, how could they be different? Different cases, that's a personal preference.
Different innards, that's something we don't need to see. |
Al Brisco
Member From: Toronto, ON Canada
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posted 17 May 2006 05:17 PM
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As I retailer of both, I find virtually no difference between the pedals when using the 'Full Frequency Input' of the Goodrich LDR2.
The Goodrich also has a 'Normal' input jack which comes with a more mellow tone setting from the factory, (great for hawaiian type tone), but which can also be modified with the adjustable tone pot on the bottom of the pedal.
Also, the Goodrich LDR2 pedal comes with a de-tachable AC adaptor (Wall Wart), whereas the Hilton is hard-wired.
Both are great volume pedals!
Al Brisco
Steel Guitars of Canada |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 17 May 2006 09:27 PM
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Thanks for all the feedback and info, everyone. I fully expect both pedals to be excellent, I've always loved Goodrich, just not thrilled with scratchy pots. Per Tom Bradshaw's request, I'm even going to throw into the test one or two Goodriches he has using the Dunlop pot, which he says has been trouble-free for all customers who have been using it.Bobbe, you're right about my needing a new pedal, it'll be one of these...maybe even both! John Fabian, Bradshaw also confirmed that the sunlight problem was rectified long ago, thanks for helping clear that up. I can't imagine Goodrich not correcting ANY problem of any kind on their products, they're really good about that. This little project is turning into my life's work, sheesh! I'm real curious to see if I hear the string separation and improved low end that my buddy Mike Fried mentioned higher up in this thread. |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 18 May 2006 06:26 AM
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All other things being equal, service after the sale is a very strong consideration.If unsuspected problems are found, do the builders offer corrections/retrofits, or do they want you to purchase new models? How do the warrenties compare? |
Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
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posted 18 May 2006 06:59 PM
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Is that the Los Angeles Hilton LAX or the Los Angeles Hilton downtown? |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 20 May 2006 10:05 AM
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Mark, you've been to my studio, you should know that I'm referring to the luxurious San Pedro Hilton!  ------------------
E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 22 May 2006 09:30 AM
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Preliminary testing with my lab colleagues is done, but I'm doing some further testing, adding other pedals in my inventory to the tests, running all dry, then through PodXT, doing about anything that merits a test. Should have final summary posted later in the week.I can tell you that both the Goodrich LDR2 and Hilton did sound excellent. But it's also surprising how close a pot pedal can get under certain conditions. ------------------
E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 29 May 2006 10:12 PM
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Still doing final tests and compiling a short summary of evaluations. Give me a few more days, I've been a bit busy.------------------
E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT |
Paddy Long
Member From: Christchurch, New Zealand
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posted 30 May 2006 02:07 PM
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Another plus for the Goodrich LDR2 for those of us who live outside the US, or who travel a bit...the power supply is an international version..IE: it is compatible with both 110-115V and 230-240V. I understand that at this stage that the Hilton is only available in 115v ?
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John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 30 May 2006 09:49 PM
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Yes, Paddy, that's certainly in the plus column for the Goodrich. The AC wall wart has a slot for multiple inserts, so apparently this can be at home around the world. I don't know whether Hilton has the same versatility, I've never heard that it has. Any experts out there want to chime in? |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 02 June 2006 11:57 AM
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The Hilton pedal requires a $20 transformer to work with European voltages, according to Keith
Hilton in this post: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/007091.html |
Wilbur Keeton
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 14 June 2006 02:00 PM
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I have used a Hilton pedal for several years now. I never liked the hard wired heavy transformer that is attached to it, nor the actual taper or feel of the pedal travel...too hard to nail the exact volume even after being used to it. And there is a little tone coloration to the the sound, which I got used to, sort of. I decided to try a Goodrich LDR2 pedal. When I got it in, I noticed a definite sound change.....the very sound I always looked for.....very clean, bright, and solid....even other pickers say is sounds much better. But the main thing to me is the ease of feeling the volume in, that I want, and voicing an individual note....and I ain't even used to the pedal yet!! And I no longer have to worry about bending the power wire too much, because it detaches the way it should. I like the Hilton, but the LDR2 has it hands down, for me. |
John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 27 June 2006 10:04 PM
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Is anyone using Keith Hilton's digital sustain unit along with his volume pedal? There's a significant difference in usable gain between the Hilton and the Goodrich LDR2, I'm thinking that the sustain unit might bring that factor into parity.Sorry this evaluation is taking so ding dang long, gang: I keep thinking of new things to try. Both are excellent pedals, though, that's the bottom line. More details one of these days. ------------------
E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT [This message was edited by John McClung on 27 June 2006 at 10:05 PM.]
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