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  Help with a Jerry Byrd composition

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Author Topic:   Help with a Jerry Byrd composition
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 10 December 2006 12:28 AM     profile     
This song is credited to Jerry Byrd, so presumably someone here has a copy of the music.
I am having problems with the MIDDLE section of this song. The key "A".

The Sea and Me

------------------

[This message was edited by basilh on 10 December 2006 at 02:39 AM.]

Derrick Mau
Member

From: Honolulu, Hawaii, USA

posted 10 December 2006 02:03 AM     profile     
Hi Baz,

No sure if you are looking for the chords for the middle part of the song. But anyway, I took a listen and this is chord progression I hear.


C#m - D# - D - C#7 - C - B7 - Bm7 - E7

[This message was edited by Derrick Mau on 10 December 2006 at 02:07 AM.]

basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 10 December 2006 02:42 AM     profile     
Mahalo Derrick,

Yes it's the middle section, after the 3m I'm having difficulty differentiating between major, minor and sevenths. The drum is somewhat 'Clouding" the bottom end and all I can hear is roots and fifths.

Pakile.

George Keoki Lake
Member

From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

posted 10 December 2006 04:11 AM     profile     
I transposed the song from key of A down a tone to key of G for one of my students...These are the chords I heard for the bridge:
Bm |Bdim |Am |F#dim |G |A7 |D7 | ./. |

(Just go up a tone for key of A, the key Marty Robbins recorded)

c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 10 December 2006 04:47 AM     profile     
Jerry sent me a copy of the orig and he and Marty wrote this in the key of F and the bridge from bar 17 is am/e ebdim gm/d dbdim fm/c bdim c7 c7 It appears to be Jerrys writing. It would have been even better if Marty had "autographed" this also.Jerry said he liked to play it in F but that was not Marty's key for singing. I also have a copy of Jerry doing this instrumentally and he does it in F. CC
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 10 December 2006 06:13 AM     profile     
As ever, Keoki and indeed C.C. can be banked upon to come up with the goods.
There is just one question left to be answered, what chords did the BAND play on Marty's record ?
BECAUSE those diminished chords are not there.
Another anomaly is the diminished chord linking the bridge to the line "The breakers Play" the chord is Gdim but the melody is E C# A The A note should be an A# to fit the chord ?
Likewise the steel guitar solo starts with a half bar of A and then A# dim but this time Jerry plays the correct note i.e. A#.
Strange !!

I hear C#m - D#7 - Bm - C#7 - Am - B7 - Bm7 - E7_A#dim.

Explanations are needed as to why the A note was left on the vocal but played as a passing A# on the steel solo.

I can see the diminished chord replacing the seventh and pretending to be a flat ninth, but they didn't play that.

[This message was edited by basilh on 10 December 2006 at 06:29 AM.]

basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 10 December 2006 06:16 AM     profile     
Chris LeDrew From: Newfoundland, Canada,
contributed this perception

C#m - Eb - Bm - C# - C (Am?) - B - Bm
Beautiful song, BTW.

c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 10 December 2006 07:12 AM     profile     
I ain't got as much smart as you fellows so I dragged out an old talk tape of mine and Jerrys and he states; the first thing we do is throw out all the minors and play the relative majors. The bassman carrys the note that will substitute the minor. Further more Jerry says we never practise the song because we don't play it in the studio like we would have practised it. In the studio we exchange ideas and we play what sounds good on the record. I might add that this was said before the producer or what have you took the creativity from the musicians and started dictating what would be played.
c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 10 December 2006 07:18 AM     profile     
One more item and I'll shut up. Jerry, Benny, and Kalani were in my room at the Royal jamming and I asked them to play this song, among others, and I taped it. They did it in G with Kalani singing it and it sounds a little different as they did use some dim chords. Or at least it sounds that way to me. CC
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 10 December 2006 07:36 AM     profile     
C.C. Don't take what Jerry said as gospel.
quote:
the first thing we do is throw out all the minors and play the relative majors.

That is not the way it was EVER done, and when he talks about producers, it's just wishful thinking on his part. Producers dictated what happened on records since records were made.
If Jerry's input was so great, why didn't HE correct the wrong notes by Marty on the song and also point out that the guitar player played a diminished in one of the stops by the rest of the band ?
No He's telling fanciful tales about what he "Wished" would have been.
Not taking anything away from his wonderful playing ability, in fact, his musical inventiveness would appear to have spilled over into his rhetoric. !!
c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 10 December 2006 07:52 AM     profile     
One evening in Winchester Jerry was playing in the parking lot and the fellow that was playing rhythem guitar was unfamiliar with the songs but he could recognize the majors. Jerry told him to play the majors so Jerry played the minors or notes that suggested minors. OK I'll shut up now. CC
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 10 December 2006 08:03 AM     profile     
C.C. And you actually BELIEVE that ?
It's a HUGE wind-up.
There's a saying over here, "You can't run with the Hare and hunt with the Hounds"

In a lot of posts regarding the vocal backing and strings on Jerry's albums the producer has been blamed and it has been intimated that Jerry had NO control over the arrangements, so HOW can Jerry say in a talk tape to you that he was responsible for what 'went Down' on tape.

C.C. Pat and I both love you dearly but we MUST agree to disagree with you on this particular issue.
Please take this as an objective observation, the comments made by Jerry on that tape were at the least a "Wind-Up" if not just a jocular quip.

It's definitely Jerry's sense of humour shining through,
"Don't play the minors"
Don't say that aloud to to many other musicians.

[This message was edited by basilh on 10 December 2006 at 08:43 AM.]

Earnest Bovine
Member

From: Los Angeles CA USA

posted 10 December 2006 08:44 AM     profile     
Basil, I think your chords are right but it sure is hard to hear the band, and I don't hear the bass at all.

One theory behind why the bridge works is this: if you think of the C#m as A#m7-5 (root omiited or at least very quiet) then the bridge is just circle of 5ths, or a succession of ii V in G#m, F#m, Em:
[tab]
A#m7-5 ( = C#m/A#) D#7
G#m7-5 ( = Bm/G#) C#7
F#m7-5 ( = Am/F#) B7
Bm7 E7


Now for the pickup chord vs pickup melody into the next verse

quote:
Another anomaly is the diminished chord linking the bridge to the line "The breakers Play" the chord is Gdim but the melody is E C# A The A note should be an A# to fit the chord ?
That kinda bugs me too. I wish Marty had sung A# but he didn't. The A# dim 7 chord is functioning as F#7-9, dominant to the Bm on the downbeat.
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 10 December 2006 08:53 AM     profile     
Nice of you to chip in Earnest. Yes the bass note on the A# dim WOULD help if there was one, it's just an intimated 6/7th chord leading to the 2m.

I also took the C#m to be the half-diminished lead-in.
Strange that Jerry wrote the song and didn't correct Marty on the lack of the A# note.
Can anyone post the INSTRUMENTAL version by Jerry, just for analysis sake, PLEASE.

[This message was edited by basilh on 10 December 2006 at 08:58 AM.]

c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 10 December 2006 09:26 AM     profile     
Baz, you can disaree with me as much as you want to. My skin is as thick as an armadillo. The remarks about producers were mine based on several of my nashville friends telling me about producers having more and more say about the musical content of recordings when in the past the musicians had more input than today. Having known Jerry since 1948 Jerry is the most truthful person that I have ever met. Perhaps in his later yrs his memory was not exact and he would always qualify a statement by saying thats the best I remember. Hope all the advice you have been getting helps you on this tune. I think I would be more confused. Isn't this forum great! cc
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 10 December 2006 10:01 AM     profile     
No Problemo C.C.
what I really need is someone to post the INSTRUMENTAL version by Jerry.
In the solo on the Marty Robbins version his first 3 notes are CORRECT with the diminished chord and he is SO in tune on the high section. I just wonder how good it must sound when he is in a "Comfortable" key, like you said he preferred it in F, presumably he recorded it in that key ?
quote:
My skin is as thick as an armadillo

As long as you don't have as many wrinkles !!

[This message was edited by basilh on 10 December 2006 at 10:03 AM.]

George Keoki Lake
Member

From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

posted 10 December 2006 11:02 AM     profile     
Lots of thoughts, lots of theories, lots of chord suggestions. I think I'll stick with the progression I 'heard' and wrote for my student. It may not be exactly as played on that old disc, but that's the beauty of "arranging". As the rhythm guitarist of an 18 piece big band (www.trocadero.ca), I'm constantly awed when reading and playing arrangements of many great old standards in which the arranger used beautiful substitute chords. Therefore, to answer Baz's question, probably any of the above chord progressions will be quite acceptable.

Those of you who know Hiram Olson ... where you or I might play a single chord in a particular measure, he would play a series of 4 chords, 3 of which would be "passing" chords, almost a melody in itself.

c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 10 December 2006 11:44 AM     profile     
Yes Baz, I do have the wrinkles. Keoki, Hiram was before my time. I sure like to read what you old timers have to say. cc
George Keoki Lake
Member

From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

posted 10 December 2006 12:11 PM     profile     
Ahhh, c'mon CC...NO ONE IS OLDER THAN YOU ! ... Hiram along with (the late) Kalani Fernandes played with JB constantly in Waikiki, also accompanied him on his Japan/NZ tours and mainland conventions. Of course, that all happened during the LAST century, so perhaps it was before your time !

[This message was edited by George Keoki Lake on 10 December 2006 at 12:11 PM.]

c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 10 December 2006 01:42 PM     profile     
Hey I do remember. I used to see him in waikiki when I was a kid. cc
Mike Ihde
Member

From: Boston, MA

posted 10 December 2006 09:19 PM     profile     
Bazil,
It's C#m, Eb7, D, Db, C6, B, Bm7, E.
Except for the Eb7 chord, the piano is playing straight major triad fills and the vocal melody on the Db chord is adding flat 7 but no one is playing it that way. The C had a 6 on it in the piano part. All the bass notes were clear as just a desending chromatic line.
Jeff Au Hoy
Member

From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

posted 10 December 2006 11:15 PM     profile     
And CC, you'll still find Hiram Olsen in Waikiki! I play with him at the Halekulani Friday and Saturday nites. Keoki, you are so right, Uncle Hiram is just fabulous when it comes to playing changes. I listen in awe every night I work with him. I will even say I'm pretty intimidated. He really keeps me on my toes.

Baz I will ask Uncle Hiram about the song when I see him next.

c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 11 December 2006 04:09 AM     profile     
all kidding aside I first saw Hiram the first time when he came to Scottys convention with Jerry. It also was Jerrys first time. I have a tape of it and as Jerry introduced Hiram he said see this Hawaiian fellow behind me? I bet you think he has one of those long hawaiian names no one can pronounce. I want you to meet Hiram Olson. The crowdhad a good laugh. Hiram was slim and looked like he hadn't hit 30 yet. I also have a pic of Jerry with a young Hiram at the convention.I'll send iy to anyone who wants to post it as I'm still a dummie. cc
George Keoki Lake
Member

From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

posted 15 December 2006 06:09 AM     profile     
C'mon SOMEBODY...Please post CC's pic for ALL of us computer dummies to enjoy !
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 15 December 2006 06:30 AM     profile     
Send it to me CC. I'll post almost anything !!
c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 15 December 2006 07:37 AM     profile     
just got back in town as soon as I get myself rearranged I'll send. cc
c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 15 December 2006 09:28 AM     profile     
Baz, my origs are glossy and the copies are not perfect but are ok. Would you have any trouble posting?
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 15 December 2006 10:16 AM     profile     
None at all, C.C.
Pat and I have some pretty fancy programmes, as you probably know from receiving our magazine.
c c johnson
Member

From: killeen,tx usa

posted 15 December 2006 10:58 AM     profile     
Fine I'll mail them tomorrow. CC
George Keoki Lake
Member

From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

posted 21 December 2006 11:26 PM     profile     
So, what happened ?

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