The very positive phone calls, emails, letters, and posts on the forum are greatly appreciated. They have provided the motivation and resolve to continue in my efforts, which if only helps one person enjoy learning and playing the instrument, I will consider my participation as having been worthwhile.

Back on topic.........

Imagine someone buying a 1000 piece picture puzzle and trying to put it together without looking at the picture on the box.

It could take a lifetime to put it together, yet with the picture, it can be accomplished relatively quickly.

That analogy may appear to be silly, but there is a correlation which could apply to some who attempt to play steel guitar without the "picture". Elements of tone is without question a big piece of the puzzle..............

With this said, I would hope our goal is... to work together to acquire the "picture" which will help all of us, and assist in the evolutionary progress of steel guitar itself.

quote:

---

Notes were "fatter". Chords were "bigger". So much so that I had to make slight adjustments to my amp. The timbre of my guitar didn't change, but my tone did.

---

Dennis, well oberserved.
I enjoyed your discription of
how you got there.

I also play single notes with thumb and middle finger,
as well as thumb and index,
sometimes trying to alternate both ways.

For me it does get a different sound with each finger,
and I have tried at times to both accentuate that difference,
as well as hide it.

It seems logical to be adept at both ways,
because it alows other riffs, not as easy or smooth
starting strictly from thumb index.

When I use picks I have liked those little very narrow Propics.
I bend them right to my finger,
but slightly striaghter near my finger nail.
Since I play no picks alot, it gives me close
to the same feel and blocking, but more percussive.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 November 2006 at 08:54 AM.]

One way to get that internal reference is to do lots of careful listening to steel players that "play well" and "have good tone".

Of course, if someone is going for a completely "non-standard" tone or "non-standard" playing style - by this I mean there are no practitioners to reference - I guess they just have to have that in their head or painstakingly search for it in the learning process. I think that's a big part of the reason why real innovators are unusual.

Of course, getting that reference is just one step - one needs to know which playing elements can be varied to achieve different tonalities, and then work at it, of course. This is why compiling the various controllable elements, as you did in Part 1, is so important. It's pretty hard to focus on these elements if you don't even know what they are. But again, someone can just blindly try things out. I don't recommend it, though. I teach for a living {edit - not steel guitar } and I think it is the rare, very self-directed, bird who can make that work well.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 26 November 2006 at 08:46 AM.]

Randy...try slightly pushing (vibrating) the bar pressure without sliding/rolling it...does this affect your sustain?

When playing live, "Looking at the picture on the box" to me means hearing what you're playign from the vantage point of "what the audience hears".

THat is invariably hearing recordings from a recorder "out in the audience", and I've found that it's best done with a regular cassette, or now, I guess any advanced Digital Camera with a small "movie" function. I have a nice little Canon that does this.

Without fail, I early on found that especially without PA, the sound I hear on stage has got to be nearly painfully thin and tinny, or "out in the crowd" it sounds flat and muffled.

When working with a PA, I typically use SM57s and have the Sound tech EQ the mix flat with the highs boosted a bit. That can lessen the effect.

Reverb too is that way. Since I like to hear a bit more than should be "in the mix" I have my unmiked "monitor amp" pointed at my head, with all the reverb I want. If I can't I simply use a reverb that doesn't add a lot of regeneration, and a delay that's similar to what the "pros" use, 20-30% signal and 2-250 ms delay.

The "Big Picture" otherwise in the "World of Steel Guitar" is a much bigger picture than I'm capable of seeing. You can only feel so many parts of an elephant at once. The Forum here is the best way I've found.

quote:

---

Thus, the construction of a well made guitar with a good piece of seasoned wood also compliments the tone and feeds back through the strings and into the pickup?

---

quote:

---

if someone is going for a completely "non-standard" tone or "non-standard" playing style

---

Even then it is likely quite useful to also know standard techniques.
They didn't becomes standard's for no reasons.

I think moving the bar can put extra energy into the strings similar to guitarists,
using up and down the fret vibrato to keep notes ringing longer,
the friction ion the fret re-energises the string.

The bar does it differently,
and this must call for more observation,
to detect the best ways to do it.
And also tends to energise ajacent strings,
so muting/blocking is need for a clean sound also.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 November 2006 at 07:10 PM.]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, having the middle finger "in reserve" by using my index finger and thumb, makes the transition to a higher string quicker and more precise for me. I agree with you, one should be adapt at both.

Dave M....I like your termonology "error feedback". Trial and error is a great learning tool. The procedural elements and parameters we are discussing while describing our experience in depth, will hopefully give others things to think about, yet keep our minds "between the guard rails".

Randy B....Concerning your first post on this page. I have referred to what you are describing as being as "overtone loop". Like yourself, I too notice less sustain when reducing bar pressure. You mentioned you hold the bar like it's an egg shell, and thats something I plan to try.

Eric W....Your analogy is certainly within the parameters of my analogy of "seeing the picture on the puzzle box", the difference being I was using a far broader brush while your comments were more directed.

What I was referring to in my analogy is.....if one can attain the knowldge to see the "picture" of the elements involved and the relationship and physical impact it has on playing, their search is then focused and the pieces of the "picture" puzzle go together MUCH faster.

Ed P....Your comment about light grip and different pressures is interesting. When playing single string I greatly reduce the weight on the back of my bar so the mass is directed to the strings I'm playing.

Also I believe I feel the guitar response better if the bullet end does not exceed the highest string I'm playing.

Dennis D....for me personally, lifting the fingers behind the bar would result in dramatically reduced bar control. I can however see how it can alter the sound. This is possibly a great technique for slower tempo songs where added sustain enhances the sound.

Earnest B....I will assume your question means...do I use the same tone today, that I liked years ago.

Which known players sounds the same as they did 10, 20, 30 years ago, etc.?

There are a few who still play the same guitars through the same type of amplification they used back then. Green does, and Buddy still plays the blade. Does Green sound like the old days? or does "E" sound like the Black album period when he's behind the "Blade"?

Ernest,
I believe the answer for why All of the pro's have a different tone today is because they never stop honing their picking skills.
If a player constantly practices the execution of notes on uptempo and/or ballad tempos, as they improve in those areas, their personal tone has to evolve into a different sound over time, whether their gear remains the same, or not.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 November 2006 at 05:12 AM.]

I think that lifting the fingers behind the bar
would send vibrations to the body more strongly
through the Rollers / nut, than the peghead,
but a little would still reach the peghead.

Paul, I am sure that the recording technique of the Pro's engineers,
has been instrumental in their improved sound,
as most of us hear them, on platter.
Though they have of course practiced,
and updated their tools also. So their LIVE sound has also improved.

But one clear proof of that puddin' is;
Lloyd still plays basically the same rig,
but his latest efforts 'sound' much better
than many eariler recordings.(that I have heard)
No fault of his at all.
His technique has been great for decades.
And his playing is always interesting.

I think this thread and it's predesessor should be listed on the FAQ page also.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 November 2006 at 10:36 AM.]

There's a phenom Ive noticed lately on the Telecaster regarding pickup placement and "harmonics". Harmonics work with the bridge pickup much better than the neck pickup.

Being fixed, the PSG pickup is pretty much where it is going to be, but if it is at the point of a multiple of 2 or 3, is there a "dead spot", like there seems to be with the neck pickup on a tele for harmonics and possibly certain frets due to the pickup being placed under a point of axis of string vibration?

I know that it has been stated that dead on twelfth fret playing can have a variable of being deadened right at the twelfth fret, and a lot of players tend to either "vibrato" it or remove the left fingers from the fretboard. Myself I have noticed this more slightly at the 5th and 7th frets. Places that if you pick the strings behind the bar, you get a note different from the one you are fretting ringing throughout the fretboard. I know Mr Emmons has a couple songs out where he has done this.

Thanks.

I believe the masters will agree that once the overall "picture" is understood....they quit thinking about playing and allow the sub-conscious program to run. Thats when and why "too much analyzing is paralyzing".

Paul....Excellent comment! I have been listening to all you greats play live performances for years, and of course studio enhancement is not available, yet the performances continue to sound better over the years. In my opinion, it's further proof of the power of the hands to control and manipulate the sound/tone.

Personally I think that the instruments in most situations are very identical to the rhythm sections of 20 or 30 years ago, but the volumes of these individual instruments on tracks has changed dramatically and play a part in the steel getting heard no matter what the tone of the instrument is. Yes 30-40 years ago there were drummers, but they were no where near the volume that they are placed on tracks today. So many classic country records were made with just a man with a snare drum and a stick and a brush. Your able to hear the slightest detail in the tone of all the instruments on the track. I turned on the country stations in the last couple of days to get a good idea of the general mixes that are presented today and how the tone of the Nashville steel players is being presented. I found the tracks are so stupid loud with drums and bass and screaming electric guitars and vocals in your face that to be honest with you I felt like the overall presentation of the pedal steel guitar was very lackluster. The musical thoughts of the players was right up there, but the sound of the instrument in many mixes I listened to had trouble competing with the volume levels of the drums and bass. Many times I found that the wonderful tone that we would appreciate from the steel guitar actually did not work in its' favor and sounded a bit staid in regards to the other sounds.

Now if this topic can help newcomers and
weekend duffers
improve their playing, by better applying practice time,
and performance self-observation,
then this can only be a great thing.

Analysis without getting too caught up in analysis.

If you know what you are looking for in your playing,
in a live situation then it just naturally
will come to your attention while you are playing.

The great zen masters here spend decades aquiering their
ability to NOT focus on the present function,
but be simply aware of it in the big picture with no tension in the process.

So if we are aware of what we need to do,
and just do it with out stress,
and are observant of what we do,
and yet a slight step back,
from it taking over all mental processes,
then we likely CAN play and improvise in
a musical zen state.

Everything from slight imperfections
to gross clams,
slide off like water from a duck.
I find my right hand is smoother the more relaxed I am mentally.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 November 2006 at 10:52 AM.]

People are talking about "tone" in this thread but some seem to be talking about different things. Are you using the term "tone" meaning Overall Sound or Style?

Though there have been some tangents,
the basic concept's are still happening.
What we should at times think about to improve,
and some ways have been discussed about HOW to think about them.

Here is Reece's original post.
Thank you Mr. Anderson
*****************************************
Much has been said and written concerning tone over many years, yet to my knowledge the specific elements which comprise tone have yet to be collectively identified.

What makes each of us unique in the sound we get, and why is it when we play someone else’s guitar it sounds different than when they play it?

Most will agree tone begins with the hands, so I will confine my thoughts only to that which comes in contact with the strings. (hands, bar and picks)

LEFT HAND:

1. Amount of downward pressure exerted on the bar.

2, Weight of the bar.

3. Mass of the bar.

4. Bar Alloy.

5. Diameter of the bar.

6. Bar vibrato manipulation.

7. Weight distribution on the bar across the strings.

8. Bar weight manipulation when changing positions.

9. Finger weight of middle, ring, and little finger on strings behind bar.

10. Spread distance of the fingers trailing the bar.

11. Finger placement when gripping the bar.

12. Tightness of the bar grip.

RIGHT HAND:

1. Finger positioning relative to distance from the pickup.

2. Finger pick material.

3. Finger pick thickness.

4. Angle of attack on the finger picks when entering the strings.

5. Pick depths on fingers and thumb.

6. Distance thumb is moved away from the fingers.

7. Material and thickness of thumb pick.

8. Weight distribution of the right hand on the strings.

9. Amount of “pull” pressure exerted on the finger picks.

10. Amount of “push” pressure exerted on the thumb pick.

11. Placement of the picks into the strings.

12. Depth in which the picks go into the strings.

Each element listed (and I’m sure more will be added) could be a topic of discussion while trying to analyze, evaluate and reach a general consensus.

8. Bar weight manipulation when changing positions.

To lift, or not to lift
that is the question.

Add to that mass and momentum control.

I tend to use smaller bars for C6, one tapered,
because I tend to move faster on it.
So less mass to get moving and stop smoothly.

The way one holds/grips the bar has a very significant impact on the weight distribution which translates to control, positioning of applied downward pressure, and ultimately the tone/sound.

I have seen players whose middle finger lays on top and in the middle of the bar, and I have seen others who primarily grip the bar between their index and middle finger.

I believe those who lay their index finger on top and in the middle will experience a loss in the ability to move fast and maintain acceptable bar control, especially when moving to the left quickly. This grip may also be inviting disaster, because the bar then has an easy escape route between the thumb and the index finger when additional downward pressure is added while in an attempt to maintain control. The resulting variances in weight can then negatively impact the tone/sound.

I further believe those who primarily grip the bar between their index and middle finger will likely have difficulty achieving equal weight distribution when laying the bar across the strings, and chances are the bar becomes very difficult to manipulate if the rear of the bar is raised to play fast single string. This too results in effecting the tone/sound. In most instances I have observed, those who use that bar grip have to instantly change the grip when they go from a flat bar configuration to a tilt.

There are little camps of all knowing, all seeing pedal steel guitar players everywhere you go, and all of them have discovered the secret of tone. A black 1965 Emmons push-pull guitar is one of those discoveries. Get one, it will make you sound like Buddy Emmons. And while you are at it, get a wife that looks just like his, and you might as well move to Nashville and sleep in his bed. Do all these things and you will get his tone, won't you?

Consider who in all the world we esteem to have the best tone. If you could sit right next to, or directly in front of, all the great players of notorious fame, as I most certainly have after 40 years of playing and living in Nashville, you could undoubtedly see the answer in a heartbeat. They all play, or have played every kind of guitar made. They have all played every kind of amplifier manufactured. Yet, they all have this wonderful thing called tone.

It is in their right hand. It is in the way they place it left and right down the string length. It is in the shape of the fingers, and in the way they strike the strings. Some play down, some up and back, and yet some in several distinctly different moves for different colors of tones.

The right hand is a paint brush in the hands of an artist. Each artist sees, or hears notes in his personal style. He adjusts his right hand to paint the color he sees best for any certain line of notes. It changes. Great players are moving the right hand left and right, forward and back all the time. The picks change the angle of attack from one line of notes to another. This thing is a science all to itself.

How hard the picks hit the string makes a tremendous difference in the tone the pickup sends to the amp. Tone comes from the left hand in the form of vibrato. Vibrato is the very voice and breath of life in this instrument. It can either make sustain, or destroy it.

People who argue that tone comes from the name on the front of a guitar, or from some effects unit, or some amplifier, have never studied a truly great player's right hand. That is the last thing most of us watch when we listen to a live performance. We watch the pedals, and the left hand sending that bar from left to right. We are all watching for something we can steal from this guy, that is why we call it "steel" guitar isn't it? We don't watch the right hand, it doesn't do anything we can really benefit from does it? It is doing everything that makes the left hand, and the pedals sound great.

And then there is the final argument. Of all the those little camps of players who are so sure they have the cosmic truth about great tone, have we ever really stopped to listen to their playing and their tone instead of their incessant bickering about how who gets it?

There is an old English proverb I think: The proof is in the pudding. Do these soothsayers of truth make good pudding? Do they themselves make the kind of pudding you like to eat? If not, I would suggest that they avail themselves to enough of it to cover themselves from the belly up. And you need to find another cook.

Stop looking for a good reason why you don't sound great. The problem is you and your hands. You don't need another guitar, this one will do. You don't need another amp, this one will do. You certainly don't need effects units, Jimmy Day has proven that.

When you have discarded all these lame excuses you will be left with your ears and your hands. Gee, you had those all this time. Each pedal steel guitar player is issued two of each, twice as many as you really need. What a deal!

Jeff"

I use the same grip playing both pedal and non pedal steel. I believe my doing so provides the consistency I continually seek and believe to be very important.

I'll do my best to describe the way I hold my bar:..............

First of all I make sure my middle finger exceeds the front of the bar by about 1/4 inch. Doing so allows me the ability to use that part of the finger as another dampener when pulling my bar backward and allowing that 1/4 inch to come in contact with the string, thereby killing it as needed.

When tilting the bar I use the same principle of dampening in reverse, only then I'm using the lower part of my ring finger to achieve the same purpose when going forward to higher strings. Going up takes much more practice to dampen than when going down on the strings.

I make sure all of my middle finger remains in contact with the left side of the bar. Its very important to me that the part of the middle finger closest to the hand be touching the bar so that when pressure to the left is exerted by the thumb (needed for lifting the back of the bar) it allows the back part of the bar to come under control because it is captured between the two, and again importantly to me.....the grasp on the bar remains consistent whether the bar is flat or tilted.

I next place my index finger at a slight angle across the top of the bar angled just enough to the right so as to provide stabilization between my index and middle finger, which results in control on the front of the bar as well as balanced downward pressure.

When achieving both, it allows me control and stabilization and makes keeping the bar parallel to the frets much more consistent.

To provide the "picture" to my students, I ask them to visualize a pin through the index finger, bar and middle finger, and through the thumb, bar and into the middle finger. If they can do that, the bar will always be comfortable and under control.

Having secured the bar both front and rear provides bar security, promotes controlled ease of varying speeds of bar vibrato, and consistent weight the entire length of the bar, all of which contributes to tone.

I believe it to be important that the ring finger does not remain close to the middle finger because it limits bar vibrato to the left while simulating a barracade.

When using this grip, lifting the back of the bar for single string is easily done by adding pressure on the thumb directed to the left and lifting the bar, while the fingers to the left of the bar minimizes the dragging sound of hand movement on the wound strings.

[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 28 November 2006 at 03:23 PM.]

Would you give us your opinion on Right Hand Posture !

The one thing I never adopted is the extended little finger .