The fretboard math / layout of the 6th tuning inherently stacks all the notes of all 7 "church" mode scales into VERY SIMPLE 2-fret-span boxes, ....one 2-fret-span box along the neck for each mode. Modes and their names are NOTHING more than shorthand words/labels for the 7 scales and their chords that are harmonious to each other (easier to say/write " G Aolean" rather than "G minor seven flat 6" or "Pure G minor" etc), and that we already use in our playing anyway, whether we realize it or not. For a Player that isn't familiar with modes, the concept at first APPEARS to be difficult BUT IT ISN'T; IT'S EXTREMELY SIMPLE once a quite small amount of prerequisite music theory is reviewed. MANY Players have tried to study modes but gave up because most of the teaching / learning material on modes is about the barn door to the vast abstract of Music that the modes open up to Players, with very little material published about the profound functional simplicity the modes also afford ...ESPECIALLY to Steel Guitar; And I have spent the last 7 years or-so to present the profoundly simple math and functions of the modes. The mathematical nature of modes is that any notes, scales or chords of any of the "church" modes will be harmonious to any other notes, scales or chords being played within the modal structure (and the vast majority of popular music is within the VERY SIMPLE "church" mode structure). It is indeed that congruent harmony of all notes that most Musicians sense and strive for in playing; And indeed the SIMPLE modal structure is what makes that happen, whether a Player realizes it or not. Here is a good / short / simple primer for Steel Guitar.

The inherent fretboard math / layout of the 6th tuning affords a 2-fret-span box along the neck for each mode. HOWEVER, when even one note is added to or subtracted from the 1, 3, 5, 6 sequence of the 6th tuning (such as adding the 4 note via the 6add11 tuning), ...the simple box structure of the 6th tuning's mode structure becomes fragmented and displaced from the simple 2-fret-span mode boxes (illustrated in the charts I previously linked in that discussion / message chain), ...and the simplicity of the 6th tuning mode boxes is lost to a vast abstract of both fragmented and total fretboard layout in the different tuning. Such fragmented / abstract fretboard math layout is very difficult for most folks to memorize / visualize as a whole, and thereby leaves them with fragments (we often call "Licks") as a playing inventory rather than the simple and full picture of the fretboard layout that is afforded by the 6th tuning providing the simple "church" mode structure. Even the simpler triad-only tunings popular for Resonator and Slide guitar are better understood by knowing the modal structure and what is dropped / fragmented in the boxes of the triad-only tunings. CAVEAT: Once the quite simple 6th tuning modal structure is studied and grasped, then the tunings that branch off in fragmented / displaced patterns of other tunings is MUCH easier to understand and utilize.

AND, it is not neccessary to learn the modal structure and functions of the 6th tuning, because it naturally provides the simplicity in it's fretboard layout, ...ALTHOUGH the "church" modal structure is by far the easiest and fullest template / means to visualize and navigate the Steel fretboard ....IMHO ....and apparantly in the opinion of many others.

Some Fo'Bro's have suggested that the modal structure works with any tuning, ...which is true if simple congruent layout is not a factor, ...but in a quite fragmented / displaced sense which is clearly illustrated by the 6add11 charts I've referenced in this discussion chain, which requires a pretty good intermediate to advanced level of knowledge to grasp if a Player desires the full picture rather than fragments of chords / "Licks" / etc.

I hope this helps in the search for the "silver bullet" and "R" chord.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 14 August 2005 at 04:00 PM.]

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 14 August 2005 at 07:14 PM.]

Why don't you pull out your video camera, setup some basic backing tracks and tape this stuff for people like me.
I've read and re-read Threadzilla and it just doesn't sink in.
I've always learned better when I had visual and sound examples to go along with reading materials.
I would be the FIRST in line to buy it from you.

Stuff for Steel Students ...

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Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

I have tried landscape and regular and it gets chopped up. I am really enjoying the reading. Back to #3 time through...

I think I may need 5 more if that's ok!

[This message was edited by Gary Boyett on 15 August 2005 at 05:52 PM.]

I'll chime in here also to say that I too think a video would be a terrific thing! Emmmm, I'll go out on the limb here too and offer to help edit your video and author the DVD as well if you ever decide to give it a shot.

thx again for the great info!

I wish there was something a bit more linear for those of us (and I know there are a LOT of us) who can follow things in a list, but get lost with innumerable branches.

Jay

quote:

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These elongated dissertions seem convoluted.

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quote:

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To put it simply - if you don't already know music theory *and* whatever numbering system, you're dead in the water. I guess what I'm really saying is that there's no starting point for the unschooled ear player.

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quote:

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One gets the impression that the subject is far less complex than the explanation thereof.

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Sure it is ... open up any first year Music Theory text and you get something like:

C Major Scale = Ionian Mode = C D E F G A B C
D Dorian Mode = D E F G A B C D
E Phrygian Mode = E F G A B C D E 
F Lydian Mode = F G A B C D E F
G Mixolydian Mode = G A B C D E F G
A Aeolian Mode = A B C D E F G A 
B Locrian Mode = B C D E F G A B

What Denny has done is explain how this applies to the steel guitar ... in particular the C6 tuning.

Denny does this for free & spends alot of time doing it ... simply to pass on information that he has acquired over the years.

He's not selling anything ... it's not Pay for View ... he's "sharing" this info ...

Denny has explained it the best way he knows how ... as have I (on my site) ...

Those who are interested in learning what Church Modes are and how they apply to playing the steel guitar ... can access these resources and study.

Denny has written, re-written, updated, etc. his site to make his explaination as clear as he can make it. I have done the same ...

Of course, like any advanced study ... there are some Prerequisites.

Basic knowledge of chordal theory and the Number System is needed to understand our explainations of what Modal Theory is and how it is used in music...

And yep ... these topics are on our sites also ...

Those who are not interested ... well, don't click on these links.

Those who think they can explain Modal theory in respect to the C6 steel guitar tuning better than it has already been done here ...

Open up a web page ... and have at it.

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 18 August 2005 at 05:39 AM.]

Those who think they can explain Modal theory in respect to the C6 steel guitar tuning better than it has already been done here ... Open up a web page ... and have at it.”

Wow Rick- I was really surprised to see your post. When I read through the posts I see gratitude for all the information. Also, people encouraging Denny to expand to a multi-media approach is positive and shows support (also a potential market) for all his efforts. That people profess their own limitations, express puzzlement or seek clarification is not surprising- in any area of endeavor-and should not be criticized (especially in educational forums). Its not clear where your coming from but the tone is disturbing. I don’t mean to offend- just sharing the impressions of a newbie who is eager to learn lap steel.

quote:

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That people profess their own limitations, express puzzlement or seek clarification is not surprising- in any area of endeavor-and should not be criticized (especially in educational forums).

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While I'm at it ...

I wasn't criticizing anyone ...

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I have posted an image-only page and linked to it on the master Nav / Substitution chart-page to make it printable (I hope). (Some computers can't reconcile the layered scripts on the main-chart page). Read the instructions I posted on the image page if simply clicking on your browser's *print page* doesn't work.

You might save ink by printing in black and white with a 'quick-econo' setting (the image's .jpg format color skewing has caused some pink in the background that will use color ink as well as the b/w toner).

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I APPRECIATE hearing from Folks that have difficulty with numbers / theory etc. ...even "curt quips" that usually exemplify the frustrations of some Folks' inherent learning mechanics (I know that frustration well). Please continue to provide me feedback and suggestions. It would please me greatly if I could find and produce the means to satisfy as many peoples' learning mechanics as possible. Thank You for the suggestions for producing tacit / example / hands-on media formats. I truely would like to do such things but that priority is a bit down the road. It will probably come as a video'ed seminar here at the house/shop later this year.

Keep in mind that the material IS NOT Beginner material; It requires a BASIC knowlege of music theory. That quite simple and short basic music theory is provided on my lessons index page.

In the meantime consider this: I am nominally autistic; But that's good from some perspectives because autism requires allot of detail to assemble an accurate mental picture / concept. It has been no easy chore for me to learn MANY things in my lifetime. I "envy" Folks whose learning comes easy. Otherwise, ...desire, motivation and effort was / is key for Folks that find it a challenge to learn certain things. If learning numerical academics is too much of a challenge, ...NO PROBLEM, there are other means of learning ...such as those suggested in this disucssion chain; It just WON'T likely be by by music theory.

But take heart; I have been a professional licensed instructor for 35 years and taught many highly technical aerospace subjects ...requiring much training in the ways people learn (process info) and how to teach in that broad spectrum of individual learning mechanics. My material of this discussion chain, is chock-full of instructional methodology for a broad range of individual learning mechanics, ...and is regularly refined commensurate with feedback such as this very valuable discussion chain; Albeit some of my vernacular still needs further refinement due to my autism often not being able to recognize even obviously poor vernacular until it's pointed out. Any suggestions sent to me by private email can be addressed quicker.

Bottom line is that for the time being the material is as simple as I could make it so far ...with a decent ability to do so; And I get MANY emails from Folks reporting how easy and effective it is. But it does take nominal desire, motivation and effort to make use of IF a person's learning mechanics can process the info. And if it's still difficult for some folks (which is QUITE normal in any learning arena), ...then they might have a friend who does / can grasp the material, to provide real-time hands-on demonstrations of what's there. Again, ...and quite normally... there will be some folks with learning mechanics that can't process numerical academics ... and learning music theory REQUIRES learning numerical academics. In such cases those Folks would be better served by rote tacit learning (real-time / hands-on / demonstration) (reinforced by tablature if possible) ...learning songs and licks by rote memory. There is NOTHING wrong with learning songs and licks by tacit rote memory; MANY Folks learn to play that way and enjoy the music they learn ...which I would hope is a person's objective of learning music.

Now, for those that can learn by simple numbers and simple step-by-step method:

So folks don't have to back-track it being said before:

Basic & Intermediae music "theory" and numbers doesn't get much easier than this ...(IMHO).

For Those that can study / learn by numerical academics; APPLYING (as in nominal motivated effort) it to Steel doesn't get much easier than this (IMHO).

Several Folks have rightfully pointed out that studying from Others' published perspectives is also most valuable / effective.

Thank You,
Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 19 August 2005 at 04:36 PM.]

Now I know it's just a good sign that he is OK and all is well!

Aloha,
DT~

Rick, I'll simply ask - WHERE?

I for one can't find it in all the other stuff.

And FWIW what the heck is a "Church Mode"? I've been playing on at least a semi pro basis for 40 years and never heard that term until this thread.

And I've played in church.

;-)

Denny meentions that it's all a piece o' cake "once a quite small amount of prerequisite music theory is reviewed." but never defines WHAT that "small amount" of theory is or offers it. Or if he does, it's BURIED.

I'd love to learn this stuff - but you huys lay out a bunch of engine parts with no instructions and half the tools.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 August 2005 at 08:14 PM.]

quote:

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I'd love to learn this stuff - but you huys lay out a bunch of engine parts with no instructions and half the tools.

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Even with that kinda comment ... I will gladly show you where ...

My Site ... first essay:

Number System & Basic Theory

Dennys site ... from the post above:

basic music theory

As far as Church Modes:

Church Modes

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

OK - see, this is where the beginner in theory gets lost (and I had my son - a beginner in EVERYTHING - look at it too and he got that "thousand yard stare:

The Chords and a couple of their inversions.

ABC BCA CAB

I 135 351 513
IIm 246 462 624
IIIm 357 573 735
IV 461 614 14
V 572 725 257
VIm 613 136 361
VIIdim 724 247 472

-What are "ABC", "BCA" etc? notes? some part of the scale? pedals? How the heck do those numbers relate to anything else? Where did you hide the key to the lock?

Then there's another similar section below with the same kind of stuff with no explanation. And what's a small"o"? Or a "P"? Again - partial acronyms with no explanation. This is NOT beginning theory - if it is then please explain to me why I'm flat stupid.

Sorry - but I'm lost. And the "here's some modes" doesn't MEAN anything whn I'm sitting here trying to make a chord on an unfamiliar instrument, can't read music, and don't know theory from squat.

Sorry - it's probably very simple, but I just DO NOT grasp it. I'm just frustrated after decades of being able to play - and now I can't...and the lesson materials I find don't point me mentally to " if you want to play T-Bone Shuffle, here's a "blues box" to work with." or something practical. I don't want the tab to "Bud's Bounce" or some other moldy tune, I want to be able to adapt stuff to anything as I've done for years on guitar.

I just CAN'T find the sources. Lots of folks that want to teach me E9 Nashville style. Swell. I had good conversations going with some of those folks until I said I was going with a Fender 8 string in A6 - they all refuse to answer my emails now.

Maybe it's that there are too many darned tunings, but I'm really having problems. I can play a major scale. But that's not a song, and it's certainly not something I can jam with.

And Denny's stuff, while probably good, starts out with an immediate death knell to me : Math. That just kills my whole ability to read the stuff, something I mentioned previously. Vapor lock of the brain. I just read his entire "theory beginner" page again,and it's totally confusing...things like: Major = Maj7

Huh?

I thought a Maj7 was a "jazz chord" that we were told to avoid like the plague because of the ugly flatted root note, and that "Major = Major.. 1,3,5 (I think). So how can "C", "CMaj" and CMaj7" alll mean the same thing? where did the regular old "C" chord go if all those have the 7th note (that we don't want to play unless we're doing jazz)????

And something about "double flats"? Isn't that just A DIFFERENT NOTE? If there's a reason, explain it!

And if 6 is also called 13 (and 2 is 9 and 4 is 11) - why don't we jut call it one or the other and cut all the crap? The explanation given doesn't explain why...just that it IS.

Sorry, but this stuff isn't written for the unschooled. It may be a refresher - but does ANYONE know of a net source for the basics without all the math junk and with logical explanations? This stuff is truly rocket science material, and I got a D in algebra 37 years ago (and still think it's mostly useless). FWIW I'm in corporate management for whatever that's worth, so please don't think I'm just some dolt off the corner who never got past 5th grade. I'm just stumped and need some basic guidance.

Realize again (I've repeated this several times) that I've been an ear player for 40+ years and pretty damned successful at it - so it's completely frustrating not having the physical skills to instantaneously change to an unfamiliar instrument and THEN run into brick walls due to the innumerable tunings and sysytems out there, all of which require (in my mind) a deep knowledge of theory to even try to approach.

Simply, I'm no longer a musician. That sucks beyond all comprehension. There are days now when I feel like selling everything, throwing away decades of enjoyment and saying screw it...obviously, I'm not having a good week with this stuff.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 August 2005 at 11:11 PM.]

you are doing us all great....just downloaded some pages off your website and correspondence. will be in touch again...

much aloha

THE WORD "MAJOR" WITHOUT ANY OTHER NOTATION TO THE CONTRARY, SIGNIFIES THAT ALL THE NOTES IN THE MAJOR SCALE ARE NATURAL (not having sharp or flat scale NUMBERS). THE TERM MAJOR 7 ALSO MEANS THE SAME THING A SCALE OR CHORD IS UNDERSTOOD TO BE MAJOR UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTATED. So if you see the notation "C Scale", Cmaj, or Cmaj 7, they all mean the same thing."

That's where the confusion sets in. Too many experts and too much conflicting information. I haven't a clue what's right at this point.

So Terry - he's saying your "Cmaj" is Cmaj7". Is he right?

I always thought those were different chords, but that's only 40 years talking.

I guess I don't have another choice - because if Denny's theory on learning is correct, I have ZERO chance of learning any theory.

My original background was in teaching - and that's the LAST thing I would ever expect a professional teacher to say.

But I guess that's the attitude. Seems oddly typical, just as those who dumped me when I diidn't conform to their E9-only whims.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 August 2005 at 11:51 PM.]

If I tried to explain how to open a door in pecise detail it might get kind of bogged down (starting with your arms relaxed and at your sides, swing the appropriate arm upward (see appendix A to determine which arm is appropriate depending on which way the door swings), hand forward with the fingers relaxed and slightly spread until the first, second and third fingers and thumb come into contact with the doorknob (fig. 1), thumb on top... etc.).

For me, the key to the material Denny is presenting is in his chart which shows the different two-fret boxes and which mode they represent relative to the key of the song. Reading it I discovered that in C6 tuning, frets three and five contain all the notes of the C Dorian mode, which is a useful place to look if attempting to play, for example, the blues. It's only a starting point, and says nothing about actually playing music--it's just a helpful quick mental reference when trying to figure out what notes to play, or what harmonies might work.

Music theory is not something difficult to understand, it's just a little bit difficult to teach. Try a bunch of different sources and you're sure to discover some way of learning that works for you.

quote:

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Simply, I'm no longer a musician.

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A major scale in C, as you noted, is indeed the naturals, played with C as the root. Those same notes, when started on A, form a minor scale; each other mode is the same set of notes, started at a different root.

Jazz musicians like Charlie Parker 'rediscovered' these 'church modes,' as they called them, as ways of playing different lines over the changes, revitalizing jazz.

I didn't learn the various modes in piano theory; the first time I heard young guitarists refer to the phyrigian scale, it phyreaked me out that my musical knowlege could be so lacking.

Denny's modal substitutions showed me that I had been making these substitutions for a long time, without thinking in a modal context. To understand requires some immersion in it, and that may not be for everybody.

So don't worry, be happy, and keep on pickin'. After all your guitar doesn't care if CMaj7 is an Em with a C added to the bottom.

I personally wouldn't know what to do without a Maj7; nobody ever told me any better, or that it was ugly because it had a potentially dissonant interval. I just play it, and you have your chord preferences.

quote:

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The Chords and a couple of their inversions.

ABC BCA CAB

I 135 351 513
IIm 246 462 624
IIIm 357 573 735
IV 461 614 14
V 572 725 257
VIm 613 136 361
VIIdim 724 247 472

-What are "ABC", "BCA" etc? notes? some part of the scale? pedals? How the heck do those numbers relate to anything else? Where did you hide the key to the lock?

---

Example I

A "C major chord" = C E G = 1 3 5

This is the ABC form of the chord

It's "First Inversion" is = E G C = 3 5 1

This is the BCA form of that chord

It's "Second Inversion" is = G C E = 5 1 3

This is the CAB form of that chord.

quote:

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Then there's another similar section below with the same kind of stuff with no explanation.

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My initial page is just an assembly of various charts I wrote up ... on the "Number System" ... since that is what I use.

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And what's a small "o"?

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It is the symbol for a "diminished chord" (1 3b 5b 6)

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Or a "P"? Again - partial acronyms with no explanation.

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Well, in this case there was :

M3 = Major Third
m3 = Minor Third
P4 = Perfect Fourth

P = Perfect

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This is NOT beginning theory

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I never said it was ... "Basic Theory" is the title of that page ... as opposed to "Advanced Theory" ...

It was/is not my intent to "teach" music theory on my site.

I just assembled various writtings and charts that I had done in the past ... in my own search for an understanding of music and the steel guitar.

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And the "here's some modes" doesn't MEAN anything

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Modes = Church Modes = Ionian, Dorian, etc

They are just scales ... that are useful in improvisation and melody writting.

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I'm sitting here trying to make a chord on an unfamiliar instrument, can't read music, and don't know theory from squat.

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If you want to learn "beginning music theory" ... a local community college or perhaps a piano teacher ...

quote:

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And Denny's stuff, while probably good, starts out with an immediate death knell to me : Math

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Well, its using numbers to represent notes so that the melody, harmony, etc can be transposed into a different key ...

But there is very little "math" involved in the basics.

quote:

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And if 6 is also called 13 (and 2 is 9 and 4 is 11) - why don't we jut call it one or the other and cut all the crap? The explanation given doesn't explain why...just that it IS.

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A C6 chord is C E G A ... 1 3 5 6

A C13 chord is C E G A Bb ... 1 3 5 6 7b

Similar but not the exact same thing.

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Sorry, but this stuff isn't written for the unschooled.

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No one said it was.

quote:

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It may be a refresher - but does ANYONE know of a net source for the basics without all the math junk and with logical explanations?

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This may be your "way" of speaking/writting ... and you said ...

quote:

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Sorry Rick - that wasn't meant to be a slight.

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But it sure sounds that way to me.

I'm sorry you didn't gain any "insight from my site" ...

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Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 August 2005 at 09:01 AM.]

[This message was edited by Terry Farmer on 20 August 2005 at 05:06 AM.]

1. Modes
They hold Greek names reflecting the cities that preferred a given mode in times past. The Greeks felt that playing music in a particular mode would incline one towards specific behavior associated with that mode. Hence the names!

Major Modes (i.e. with a major 3rd)
Lydian
Ionian
Mixolydian

Minor Modes (i.e. with a flattened 3rd)
Dorian
Aolian
Phrygian
Locrian

Why does it help to remember the names? Because other musicians use them as shorthand.

2. Complicated, right?
Not really. Try this: Play a G major scale, the one you already know. Start on G and work up one octave to G again. Easy huh? You just played a G Ionian scale. OK, so that's one mode/scale learned.

Now play an F major scale. Easy huh? Now let's make it REALLY HARD (not). Play the F major scale, but skip the first F note and start on the G instead. Sing the F note in your head if you need to. So, "lah", G, A, etc. up to the octave F. Now play the G above that last F just to play 8 notes.

Congrats! You just played a G Dorian scale.

3. Hang on, explain that again
Ok. If you play guitar or piano, you may be able to see this more easily....

* A G major scale that starts on G and goes to G is G Ionian.

* An F major scale that starts on G and goes to G is G Dorian

and so on.

4. Go on, lay it all out!

Now you can memorise which scale degree to start at for each mode.

Lydian: IV
Ionian: I
Mixolydian: V
Dorian: II
Aolian: VI
Phrygian: III
Locrian: VII

The patterns of tones (T) and semitones (S) are as follows:

TTTsTTs Lydian
TTsTTTs Ionian (modern major)
TTsTTsT Myxolydian
TsTTTsT Dorian
TsTTsTT Aolian (modern minor)
sTTTsTT Phrygian
sTTsTTT Locrian

Hope this helps someone.

Ian

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

When Denny's Modal Theory site was discovered, I understood nothing. Hence the photo (my attempt at a suspended chord). I have since taken a couple of night classes on music theory and it was a very good thing to do. I'm repeating the intermediate class this fall.

It's about the journey and the journey may be a long one. I have made progress and at least understand the terminology and how to figure something out if I sit down to it.

The beauty of what Denny and Rick have done is that it can be printed out or referred to when need be. I may not understand something today, but it may come to me in two weeks and then I'll jump back to the information to recap and continue. It's a process. A process in progress.

Sometimes I'll listen to a melody, or a phrase and not be able to play it then & there. All of a sudden, it comes to me at a later point because I have thought about it and have it familiar in my head & ears.

That's how I view this anyhow.

quote:

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"Realize again (I've repeated this several times) that I've been an ear player for 40+ years and pretty damned successful at it..."

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"Simply, I'm no longer a musician."

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Yo Jim -- check out this definition of musician at:
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Musician

My favorite line is "Human beings did not begin producing music by banging away on a keyboard..." Before theory existed, could we call them musicians?

You said that you've been an ear player for 40+ years. I say then GO WITH THAT! I started on steel 5 years ago. Never had even touched one until then. I read a few things about tunings. All I knew was I wanted that Hawaiian and western-swing sound I loved so much. I found out that C6 was about the best place to start, so I went from there. I tuned up my little Fender Champion 6-stringer to the recommened C6 (C-E-G-A-C-E, l-h), and started playing -- by ear. It became obvious to me pretty quickly that I could find my way around, as long as I knew what key I was in, and where my ROOT notes where in that key.

I'd just put on CD's, and jam with them... A LOT. Ask my wife -- I drove her crazy! If you're an ear player, it should take you .02 seconds to figure out what key and where that root is when you "drop the needle" (to use an extremely archaic term).

Use your bottom and second strings (your C strings) as your starting point, and find your key from there, just using relative pitch. If they're in the key of G, you know that you'll have to put your bar across the seventh fret, as this is your home base. OK, now they went to a IV chord (in the key of G). Just slide that bar up five frets. Voila!

This the UBER-SIMPLE way of doing it, and you will quickly realize that it's not gonna really get it, if you want to make interesting music. From there, use your ears to find combinations of notes that fit in whatever is being played on the CD you're jamming with. If you have a really good pair of ears, you'll find your way around quickly, and from there, you should start to understand more of theoretical side of things described in the previous posts and websites.

I did not begin producing music by banging away on a keyboard, either. I started singing (ears) along with records when I was a little kid, and when I was 10, got a cheap guitar and a chord book. I learned three chords, and then used my ears to figure out other stuff. For the record, I have a degree in music from Indiana University (aka "the factory"). I know the theory, and use it when I need it, but I've always relied on my ears first as a way to make music, and use theory as a tool for working things out.

Anyway, just my .02 cents. Works for me! Good luck and keep at it.

1. The "no longer a musician" comment comes from my recent vout with a physical disability with my left hand. I can't play any of the instruments I *know*, so that's why the statement.

2. The "bang it out with records" is a good idea and the only thing I HAVE been able to try. It's just a long road when due to the lack of standardization in tunings and pedals (I know this is the no peddlers board, but the problems are the same) it's tough to find real-world shortcuts - i. I can play rolls like crazy, but don't know where to put the darned bar.

3. Just ordered Mike's book - hopefully that will help.

4. Being math-deficient, I still have my doubts and preconceived notions. Those are hard to lose.

The study and active application of theory just speeds up the process, and there are many "ah-ha" moments of quick progress that make any mental effort well worth it.

I agree with Jim's comments that many threads/sites assume more knowledge than some readers have, and that omissions/shorthand can make it more confusing.- Terry really nails it with the door analogy. Although many of the concepts are simple, explanation of the whole process takes more ink and study time than will fit in any internet thread.

I'm currently writing a book about understanding and relating music theory and particularly the number system to the E9 tuning. There will be some very advanced information, but I'm starting from ground zero to explain the very questions this thread brings up, to have all the information in one place. It's a daunting task, because there is so much to cover, and trying to keep it understandable and lucid may make some of it unpalatable to more advanced players- while any attempt to overly simplify breeds the confusion seen in some of these threads.

In the end, it will have to be a fairly huge book- but since I'm aiming it at the people who really want to understand their music and their playing better, I hope it will fill a gap. There really doesn't seem to be anything like this available.

So far I've answered all of Jim's questions (in the book) so I hope I'm on the right track... Unfortunately I understand the references to theory being "too much like math". That's what kept me away from theory study at first, until I realized that theory was the very secret weapon I kept wishing I "just knew". It is a true shortcut to greatly expanding what you can do, and how you sound.

Just one small example, since there's been mention of the modes and what they're good for:
An "ear player" may know through time and experience that G major scales and licks work very well over E minor chords- like just soloing in G over the whole "Rocky Top" progression. He may not know that he is in fact already using the Aeolian minor mode every time he does that- and may not realize that every G scale and position will work over Eminor...
It is less likely that an "ear only" player will have made the connection (noted in an above thread) that any major scale played from it's second to ninth note (an octave scale starting on the second note), is also a minor mode (Dorian)... although he may have tripped over the fact that D major licks sound ok over E minor- but with just a little study, we learn that to play Dorian, we can just drop two frets back from any minor chord root, and we have an entirely new set of sounds for minors, which are often a stumbling block for players with plenty of major licks.

What I'm getting at is this: it takes some work and study to learn and understand why and how the modes work- but in actual bandstand useage, as simple as playing D or G major over E minor for two different minor sounds. (These are not the only choices for minors by far!)

I'm really interested in making this information more accessible and understandable as I can, and would greatly appreciate email contact from anybody with ideas to share on how to communicate this to as many readers as possible.

Threads like this have been a big help.