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Author
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Topic: Low to High or Vice Versa? a Poll..
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Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 06 February 2006 09:18 AM
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Well, thats all cool Mike, but I never stated it was any lower did I? You can't read tab? Then why the heck did you buy that Dick McIntire lesson in tab? Your reasoning about string packaging and spelling chords is so far off, what the heck are you arguing with me about? You don't do polytonal substitution, so you can't see my point. And you don't learn to spell chords in the beginning with them being inverted, lol? |
Fred Shannon
Member From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas
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posted 06 February 2006 09:24 AM
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"Which is the correct way to describe a lap steel tuning, Low to High or High to Low ?"Did I interpret the question wrong? I think it says how to "describe" the tuning, not how we actually "tune" the keys. Oh Well, I'm screwed up anyway. Pass the meds. I need a pill. BTW Geno, here's a west Texas EEEEEEEEEEEE!!
Phred
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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904
[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 06 February 2006 at 09:25 AM.]
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Brad Bechtel
Moderator From: San Francisco, CA
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posted 06 February 2006 09:37 AM
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As long as it's specified when you're describing the tuning, I don't care which way it's going.
I've switched my tunings page to refer to the notes by string, thus C6 tuning is shown this way:
- E
- C
- A
- G
- E
- C
If you're posting a similar tuning on the forum, look at the code for this listing to see how it's done. Select the EDIT link at the top of this posting; you won't be able to save it, but you can see how it's done. ------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 06 February 2006 at 09:41 AM.] |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 09:42 AM
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I always refer to them vertically, so I can visualize them. C6th is: E
C
A
G
E
C I tend to read them from the bottom up. |
Mike Neer
Member From: NJ
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posted 06 February 2006 09:42 AM
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You don't do polytonal substitution, so you can't see my point.Well, I guess you don't really know me, but that's cool. I'm not picking an argument with you, I just happen to disagree with the things you said. The Dick McIntire stuff I bought as a keepsake.
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Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 06 February 2006 09:52 AM
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Mike, your stating stuff I didn't say, why? And if you do understand polytonal subs, than you really have me wondering where your coming from? I love good Tab and have never understood why anyone who can play well doesn't use it if it can save time? You still have to record copy to get the phrasing. If you spell chords from high to low than, it would make sense that you would spell a C6 tuning from high to Low. Other instruments and studied musicians don't do this normally. |
John D. Carter
Member From: Ohio, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 09:55 AM
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Write it down and specify (treble to bass) or (bass to treble). What could be any more clear than that? Beyond clarity, who really cares? |
Rick Garrett
Member From: Tyler, Texas
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posted 06 February 2006 10:01 AM
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I look at it like I look down on the fret board so my tuning high to low is,D
B
G
E
C
A
G
E
C
A
F
D Rick
P.S. Sorry about that. had my tuning wrong. No wonder my picking sounds so bad.  [This message was edited by Rick Garrett on 06 February 2006 at 12:04 PM.] |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 06 February 2006 10:49 AM
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The egg must be broken at the smaller end....there is no other way! |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 06 February 2006 10:50 AM
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Now, if you take the accepted vertical way of illustrating a tuning
E
C
A
G
E
C and then make it horizontal is this not what you get
E C A G E C which is...'High to Low'
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basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 06 February 2006 10:52 AM
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Howard that was a good "Yolk" I'm glad you 'Cracked' it |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 10:58 AM
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Who gives a crap? This is turning into a dumb topic. I'm sorry I contributed to it earlier. In the words of Frank Zappa ... "Shut up and play your guitar" Come on, let's discuss more interesting and appropriate topics like "Do you think if Sol Hoopi'i was born on the planet Krypton in 1843 before the invention of the steel guitar and Dick McIntire could time travel. Do you think Dick would visit Sol and bring him a set of GHS strings? Unwound or wound 3rd?" ------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar' 
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association [This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 06 February 2006 at 11:05 AM.]
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Rick Garrett
Member From: Tyler, Texas
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posted 06 February 2006 11:02 AM
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Hey Gerald, somebody gives a crap because there are now 52 replies to this post. I'm taking your advice now and I'm headed off to play my guitar. Rick |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 11:12 AM
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wow Ray's rant was awesome!As a new player, I am off to use my sparkle red PSG on some awesome disco tracks, but I think I will smoke some crack first and change into a grubbier pair of unwashed jeans.
 |
Mike Neer
Member From: NJ
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posted 06 February 2006 11:13 AM
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Jesse, just to bury the hatchet here: You stated that there were a great number of old steel players who didn't know how to spell chords and that they had a backwards way of describing their tunings. I merely disagreed with this assumption. To me it implied that they were ignorant--maybe I misread that.Again, any guitar, bass, or steel guitar has as its 1st string the thinnest string (banjo being the exception, of course). This is just the way it has always been. When someone says to play your 1st string, you play the thinnest string, or in the case of the guitar, the high E string. When describing a tuning, one would generally start with the 1st string, not spelling it out based on the chord. I seriously have no idea why you would even bring up polytonality--to me none of this has anything to do with it. He simply asked if you spell tunings from high to low or vice versa. I spell chords the way that they are inverted, but that's because I want to be specific about how they are played. That's Book 1 or 2 Music Theory. If it's a first inversion C chord, I spell it E, G, C; second inversion C chord, I spell it G, C, E, etc. |
Bill McCloskey
Member From:
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posted 06 February 2006 11:15 AM
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yes, I think we have a contender for the 2006 "Rant of the Year" award . |
Ron Brennan
Member From: Edison, New Jersey, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 11:50 AM
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IMHO: E for EAR....High to LOW...it's easier for me to tune by Ear...I get the high E to 440 off a Korg tuner...Then by ear, do the E octave's, then the 3rd's, 5th's, etc. then, work with the guitar & base player. When I play with a band, say in a noisy bar or otherwise..it's a lot easier for me to hear the high notes first...further, if for some reason, we are out of tune (very rare), you notice it (or at least, I do)on the high strings first. Yet, if I play regular guitar (very,very rare) Yes, I would tune it starting with the low E first. No expalantion, just habit. IMHO: Like anything else, I do not think there is just one way to tune up..whatever works for you...spelling, tabs, tuners, etc there is no law, just methods...Like the saying goes, "two paths to the birds in the woods, I took the one less travelled"...Ear, high to low is the path for me. We'll both get there at the same time...TX rgds, Ron
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MUSICO
Member From: Jeremy Williams in Spain
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posted 06 February 2006 11:57 AM
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Rick Garret,¿Are you sure you have written your tuning correctly? NOW IT IS. Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain[This message was edited by MUSICO on 07 February 2006 at 06:03 AM.] |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 11:58 AM
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This topic is not about how you tune your instrument. Or what note or string you get in pitch first. It's about how you describe or write down a tuning.All you have to do is write "CEGACE low to high". Or say "ECAGEC high to low". What's so hard? They are both correct. I don't think this needs to be a religious debate. I'm going to shut up now and play my guitar. ------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association [This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 06 February 2006 at 11:59 AM.]
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HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 06 February 2006 12:07 PM
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quote:
or in the case of the guitar
We find the guitar.
Case closed.  |
Rick Garrett
Member From: Tyler, Texas
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posted 06 February 2006 12:07 PM
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Thanks Jeremy, I fixed it. Too many irons in the fire. Rick |
Chuck Fisher
Member From: Santa Cruz, California, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 12:08 PM
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Lo to Hi or L2H or H2L should be included in any tuning description, this MAKES ME NUTS when I read this forum. I'm not going to get into which is correct. Just be accurately descriptive or shut up.Love,
CF |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 12:32 PM
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CEGACE.... hmmm...... wouldn't it take a nimnul not to know which way that goes? Regardless, I personally would like to see them numbered lo to hi.
What a radical. |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 06 February 2006 12:32 PM
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Mike, you state "I stated that there were". This is why I think were having a problem. To be exact, I said "I can only guess there maybe"? Your the first player I have ever met who only spells chords inverted, if thats what your saying. I don't see what string packageing has to do with any of this. I know you play in C#m7, right? I can easily remember that tuning because I spell the chord from the root on up based on the intervals. I see it simple as a chord from root to top, just like I learned to spell chords on other instruments?. The main tunnings that I see being used the most on steel are nothing more than an open chord tuning. Heres a polytonal example: If you can spell a simple D-7 chord no inversion (D, F, A, C), than you can easily see where the 3rd is and play an Fmaj 7 arp against the band playing that D-7 chord. It's good to learn how to spell chords from low to high and this is just one of many reasons why. You can quickly learn how to spell any chord in the world by spelling 7th chords based on the C major scale as a point of reference. Inverting would come next I would think, otherwise you would lose sight of how easy it can be to spell any chord. Once you learn how to easily spell chords "any chord", you can see the intervals and it makes it very easy to use the same information to remember steel tunings. Top to bottom is extra information to memorize that is not as useful as is bottom to top. So my original question which I have had from the beginning of playing steel, is why didn't the older guys think this way? I'm only guessing why, not stating anything as a proven fact as you Mike wrongly try to state of my statements? I think this high to low issue is confusing to young musicians and they might not see in the beginning that the tunning they are using is a chord that is simple to spell. If you can't spell non-inverted chords and instead only learn to spell inverted chords by themselves, your not really learning the foundation of easily spelling chords. That would be the cart before the horse imho. I want to know why steel tunings were spelled high to low back in the day? It seems contrary to music theory thats made to make things easy to understand and use.. |
Brad Bechtel
Moderator From: San Francisco, CA
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posted 06 February 2006 01:03 PM
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I think we're talking about two different things here. The original question was "Which is the correct way to describe a lap steel tuning, Low to High or High to Low?" Somehow it's becoming a discussion about music theory.There is no correct way. Whatever way makes sense to you is the way you should use. Phillips screwdriver...flathead screwdriver...Macintosh...Windows...low to high...high to low... ------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 04:51 PM
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This guy has the answer.
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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association |
Bill Creller
Member From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 04:51 PM
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When you buy standard guitar strings,the high E string says "1st" on the wrapper, so I tune from "1st on down to the "6th" or in my case the "7th" I have only done it this way since 1944, so what do I know. |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 06 February 2006 04:59 PM
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I'd like to thank Brad for reopening the discussion because some might wish to take HIM to task about his stating categorically
quote:
There is no correct way. Whatever way makes sense to you is the way you should use
whilst I agree with " Whatever way" etc. the first part is not proven.It surely isn't a senseless discussion to try and define the parameters that we use, especially when they're so diametrically opposed. if it wasn't so, why is the subject making contributors take such intransigent stances.[This message was edited by basilh on 06 February 2006 at 05:00 PM.] |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 06 February 2006 05:07 PM
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Ger, there are those who would say the Mr Hylo Brown is forming his chord incorrectly because he's using his thumb rather than a Barre' chord.
I don't think it matters because the end result is indiscernible either way. Plus it's just a variance of technique.
In the case of Finding the preferred definition of a major part of how we describe the tunings of our chosen Instrument (Lap Steel) I think it is important that we try and find an unambiguous way of doing it. |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 06 February 2006 05:16 PM
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Ok, how about from the middle out?Wait, from the middle to the left, or middle to the right? Of course if it's vertical, then it's a moot point. |
Rick Alexander
Member From: Florida, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 05:21 PM
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I usually describe a tuning low to high even though I tune high to low.
Either way is ok by me, unless I'm feeling atonal. |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 06 February 2006 05:27 PM
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Howard . it's said that if you sit on the fence too long, you end up with splinters.I suppose that being from NY helps you "keep cool when all around are loosing" etc. It would be nice to have a definitive way as there is with copedent charts and knee levers etc. In that other world outside the "No Peddlers" domain.
I suppose that I'm really trespassing here anyway as I primarily play using pedals.
Whilst not trying to influence others with my views, I would like to motivate the members to come to a consensus regarding this issue. |
John Bushouse
Member From:
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posted 06 February 2006 05:35 PM
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quote:
CEGACE.... hmmm...... wouldn't it take a nimnul not to know which way that goes?
Well geez, now you're making me feel like an idiot. I admit to reading a high to low as a low to high and popping some strings. Seriously. I was trying out a tuning from the booklet in "The History of the Hawaiian Guitar" CD put out by Cord International. It's the first time I had ever seen tunings written out high to low. The only way I've ever seen standard tuning for guitar is EADGBE. The tuning pronounced "dad-gad" is DADGAD, low to high. The only time I've seen high to low spellings for tuning has been for steel guitar. From everyone's posts it appears that this is the traditional convention. As long as it's designated, it's not a problem. For those of us who come from the other way of playing guitar (you know, upright), it's an adjustment, but IT'S REALLY NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL. [This message was edited by John Bushouse on 06 February 2006 at 05:54 PM.]
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basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 06 February 2006 05:55 PM
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Whilst it's OK to leave the reader to know and not be a "nimnul" regarding the orientation, simple enough with six strings, but when you get to eight and ten strings and maybe have a high 'G' or 'G#' involved in the equation, it may get a little problematical for a beginner, and therein lies the crux of the matter... If you introduce a beginner to the 'newer' Lo to Hi terminology, when they pick up older books that use the customary Hi to Lo, or read a CD liner note (As referred to by John) they can wonder which way to go ? Besides to the nearest shop for replacement strings !! |
Alvin Blaine
Member From: Sandy Valley, Nevada, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 05:56 PM
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Now this is where the 5-string banjo has an addvantage.
It goes from high to low to high. No matter what way you look at it! |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 06 February 2006 06:07 PM
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John, be aware that even though it's not defined, the Tab on page 18-19 of the latest mag is E13 Hi to Lo..
Did you download the mp3 file of the original ?
Moon Over Miami
[This message was edited by basilh on 06 February 2006 at 06:08 PM.] |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 07 February 2006 06:04 AM
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Oops, I have stepped on a toe; apologies.
Remember, nimnul is an epithet directed at a human, from a guy who's spent too much time in outer space.Point being, of course, that CEGACE, tuned hi to lo, would produce a compass of nearly 4 octaves--an outstanding feat to play. But I see that I have overstated the case. It's obvious that I am more comfortable with lo to hi. Howard's proposal is more similar to Ork.
Nanu nanu.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 07 February 2006 at 06:12 AM.] |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 07 February 2006 07:06 AM
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quote:
I suppose that being from NY helps you "keep cool when all around are loosing" etc.
Just my nature. I'm basically numb. Anyhow, I have the advantage, because when you stink at music like I do, you have the freedom to do whatever floats your boat and get away with it.
Besides, I'm a man of many hats; Howard Ah Sol
Derango Reinlhiebt
Jerry Tyrd I'll tune from whichever direction I want....  [This message was edited by HowardR on 07 February 2006 at 07:24 AM.]
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Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 07 February 2006 07:57 AM
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Against my better judgement, here goes ...As to why the early steel guitarists described their tunings from ... Hi to Lo ... Probably revolved around the fact that in steel guitar playing ... the melody was (is) the "main thang" ... And the melody is generally played on the "Hi" strings ... The "Lo" strings are generally thought of as available harmony ... to that melody ... Melody ... first and foremost ... Even in "bass runs" ... the melody note was the "top" one and the harmony was the "bottom" one. Melody ... first and foremost ... First: "Where/how am I gonna play that melody line ... to keep the integrity of my phrase intact " Second: "How can I get the proper harmony note(s) ... straight bar, forward slant, reverse slant ... bust up my melody line to jump to another string for my combinations" Melody ... first and foremost ...
And while I'm at it ... as Ray Montee so elegantly pointed out ...  ...
Steel players "should" tune their steels from ... Hi to Lo ... Ray was "spot on" ... ... in his description of why tuning from the E (or whatever your top string is) down ... is preferred ... sonically. It's all about minimizing error ... associated with inharmonicity. If you care for a more detailed explaination ... here's what I wrote in a thread Ray posted back in '03 on this topic: quote:
Get ready to yawn:Because guitar strings (piano, etc) are not "ideal" (behave as the math dictates) ..... the overtones of a vibrating string are not necessarily perfect harmonics ... Elasticity issues basically .... To differentiate between the ideal harmonics and the pitches actually produced .... the overtones produced by the string are called partials. Although the partials are very close to the ideal harmonic series, they can differ. The harmonics of a vibrating string tend to be sharp of the natural harmonic series. This becomes more pronounced as the string is made shorter or thicker. Pianos have their bass strings tuned alittle flat ... so that their partials "agree" with the middle strings fundamentals ... The high register strings are tuned alittle sharp so that the middle string's partials don't clash with the high strings fundamentals ... They call it a "stretched tuning" ... If you start tuning your steel at the bass strings and tune up ... then your high strings will be a little sharp ... I got an email the other day ... quote:
Please start teachin' high school again .... you're drivin' us nuts Sorry y'all ...
That said ... when someone asks me about a tuning ... I generally describe it (lo to hi) ... since thats the way it "comes out" when I strum across it ... in my mind  Just one long-haired ... doped-up ... JB fans opinion on the matter ...
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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 07 February 2006 at 08:15 AM.]
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John Bushouse
Member From:
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posted 07 February 2006 08:37 AM
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quote:
Oops, I have stepped on a toe; apologies.
Remember, nimnul is an epithet directed at a human, from a guy who's spent too much time in outer space.Point being, of course, that CEGACE, tuned hi to lo, would produce a compass of nearly 4 octaves--an outstanding feat to play. But I see that I have overstated the case. It's obvious that I am more comfortable with lo to hi. Howard's proposal is more similar to Ork.
Nanu nanu.
No real offense taken, Charlie - I felt pretty stupid when I realized what I had done. Basil, I haven't downloaded the song yet, but I remember that the the tuning was something recognizable to me. That, and a few years of being open to the idea that low to high wasn't the only way to go, helped! |
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