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Author
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Topic: C6th First String - G or D?
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 01 May 2000 03:48 PM
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What are the pros and cons for the decision to tune the first string of the C6th to D as opposed to G? Is there a difference in the style of music usually played on one vs. the other?------------------
Bobby Lee quasar@b0b.com gigs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra S-8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6) |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 01 May 2000 04:59 PM
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B0b,It's the same old story with our chosen instrument. The gap between that 2nd and 3rd string is a major 3rd, or 4 notes. As Buddy Emmons points out, you need that D note between the E and the C notes so very often. It is a natural progression as you well know in music, But to put it between the E and the C would mess up sooo many things. Much easier to give up the G note. It was always so thin anyway for the C neck. And then of course replace it with the D note. It is used just like the 1st and 2nd strings on E9th, when you need it you can reach up there and get it and then pull back the bar after it has sustained the required amount. Note: when you give up that G note, you lose a very important major triad with the 5th of the chord on top. What BE did when he put the D instead of the G, is to add a knee lever pulling the C (3rd string) to a C#, Now move up 3 frets from the tonic chord add the 5th pedal and Shazam, you have it back, albeit it, 1 string down respectively. But you know what? It actually sounds better. And that C# can be used with pedal 8 and also, pedal 6 to get that missing augmented that is used a lot when pedal 6 is engaged. God bless all, carl |
Richard Sinkler
Member From: Fremont, California
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posted 01 May 2000 05:10 PM
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D -- Just 'cuz------------------
Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 01 May 2000 05:48 PM
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Bobby, I believe there is a small change in style with the D on top as you suggested. It makes the tuning more jazzy and more like what Reece Anderson does with his S12. One important part, besides all good ideas mentioned here, is the D gives you the high tonic for pedal 5, the D7, D9 pedals. This is very useful in more modern type playing. It is the 6th of the F9 pedal 6, it is the 9th of C6 open, it works good with pedal 5 and 6 both together for some nice diminished runs. I use this on my E6th tuning(similiar to C) but on my tuning it is the F#, same as 1st string on E9 neck. As Carl mentioned about BE you can get that same chord up 3 frets with C to C# on a knee and pedal 5.as you get with the G on top. You won't miss it.
Many steel players are now feeling that the D is more important than the G on the 1st string in modern playing.Glad you brought this thread up, Bobby.....al |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 01 May 2000 06:28 PM
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Hi b0b,
If you are thinking S12U, you have them both, assuming you lower your D# to C# on the same change that lowers your E's to Eb's. |
Fred Layman
Member From: Springfield, Missouri USA
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posted 01 May 2000 06:41 PM
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I came to C6 from non-pedal A6th which most always had the fifth interval on the first string and I learned a lot of songs that way, so I have retained the G on the first string. But the knee lever change Carl and Al are suggesting has possibilities, so I may look into it. Harold Flynn, who went to the D first string over 25 years ago, thinks my tuning is Neanderthal and limited in chordal possibilities when compared with the D first string and appropriate knee levers. |
Don Walters
Member From: Regina, SK, Canada
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posted 01 May 2000 07:09 PM
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b0b, relating this to your question about the C-C# change, if you put that on a lever, you get the C-E-G triad 3 frets up from the root position. It sounds a little richer than having the high G string, and you have the benefits of the D on top------------------
Don Walters
get "listed" at the World Wide Steel Guitarist Directory
www3.sk.sympatico.ca/waltd/
(aka On-Line Steel Guitarists of the World) |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 02 May 2000 03:23 AM
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Bob, this question has come up before and there are a lot of us that still have the G. I've tried it several times and keep going back to the G string as I lose a lot of (old style)licks. If I was just starting out on C6th, I'd go with the D string.
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C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 02 May 2000 05:20 AM
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Concerning that D instead of G string, I have a question for you folks that have it. Assuming you tune "Just Intonation", Do you tune it to be in tune with the 4th string A note, or the the 5th string G note? Or do you split the difference? Since BE tunes straight up 440 (reference) on all strings and changes, he of course does not have the problem. But with "JI", I have a real problem with it. Thanks, carl |
Ernie Renn
Member From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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posted 02 May 2000 05:55 AM
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b0b;
I agree completely with Carl's first post.  Carl;
Try tuning the C6 to 440. After I changed to using that method of tuning, my C6 sounded more "in tune" than it ever had before.
"Try it, you'll like it!" (I also use it on E9. It took some getting used to, but I like it better, now. I've come to believe that "flat is flat"). ------------------
My best,
Ernie
The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com[This message was edited by Ernie Renn on 02 May 2000 at 05:56 AM.] |
Duane Becker
Member From: Elk,Wa 99009 USA
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posted 02 May 2000 08:15 AM
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I was at Scottys Convention in 1994 and I asked Buddy Emmons when he was at his booth about the top string on the C6. I had always used the high G, in fact since the late 1960's. Buddy started telling me the reasons that I should put the D note on top. After about 5 minutes of reasons, he then said that I need to go and put the D string on right away. I said, "Yes Sir, anything you say Sir!!!" When I got home, I put the D on and it took a couple of months to get used to it, but now I wouldn't be with out it. I dont even miss the high G. Duane Becker |
Jay Jessup
Member From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
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posted 02 May 2000 08:33 AM
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Does anybody know when Buddy first started using the D on top? Specifically did he use it on some of the tunes on the Black album? The first I heard of that in print was Buddy's pockets column in the old Steel Guitarist mag back in the early 80's but I know Buddy was using it before that. |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 02 May 2000 08:36 AM
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I think I heard that one reason Buddy didn't tab the Black Album was because he used a high G on it. |
Jerry Gleason
Member From: Eugene, Oregon
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posted 02 May 2000 11:26 AM
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Maybe that's the reason I've stayed with the G on top, since one of the ways I taught myself C6 was to learn the tunes off the Black album. Most of them can't be played without the high G (well, not by me anyway). Like Jack, I have tried the D and always go back to a G. I guess I'm just attached to a certain sound. I have changed it to work on a particular tune sometimes, if it lends itself to it. It's easier to work through single note lines when you have a D, but I play mostly modern jazz, and I don't feel that I'm losing anything by having the G on top. I agree that if I were just starting out, I'd go with a D, especially on a guitar with a "standard" pedal setup, or one with a limited changer. |
Bob Kagy
Member From: Lafayette, CO USA
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posted 02 May 2000 12:47 PM
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D on top. I changed some years ago. There was a learning curve, but there's no way I'd go back.A few reasons. The G 1st string gauge is a little on the thin side compared with the rest of the C6th voice, and can stick out. With the C to B knee engaged, you have a nice major inversion with the 1, 3 & 5 notes on strings 5, 3 & 1. You therefore may not need the C to C# change but it's still a nice one to have. (BTW, I tune the D as the 5th of the 5th string G, so it tends to be very close to straight up). If you also lower the 6th sting E to D, you have another 5th below the G. Already mentioned are all the 2nd or 9th opportunities at the root (open) position. And the 6th when either the 6th pedal (2nd string E to F, 6th string E to Eb) or the G to F change is used. For me the presence of the top string D makes it much easier to do scale runs on the top strings - that note is just right there, and it's there in all positions for all the modes. Lots of old C6th material is highly adaptable using the high D without changing the tune at all; but obviously not everything. The need for the dual use of pedals 5 and 7 - you may find goes away - the D is already there and the B is available on the C to B knee; just a different grip. If you use the A to Bb pull, the D gives you a ninth right on top of the dominant 7th. You'd be surprised how often that can substitute for the boo-wah pedal. IMHO it makes it easier to play straight country with a slightly more alto voice over on the C6th side, and different phrasing and positioning. That can occasionally give a very warm, buttery lead line just as variety from the E9th. But also in my opinion, it makes it a bit more amenable to pop & jazz on the C6th tuning. Bottom line? I think it's cool, not everybody needs to agree, but that's good. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 02 May 2000 04:53 PM
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I'm actually tuned to D6th, so that high G would be an A. The "too thin" arguments certainly apply, plus the fact that I tune my lap steel to a D13th with a chromatic E as the first string.The reason for my qeustion was that I was having a hard time getting some of Herb Remington's parts without that high 5th. It hadn't occured to me that I can get that inversion by raising the third string half a step. That would give me a B6th which is closer to Herb's A6th voicing anyway. Now if I can just figure out how to add it to my old Speedy West guitar... Thanks everyone! ------------------
Bobby Lee quasar@b0b.com gigs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra S-8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6) |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 02 May 2000 06:46 PM
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"If you use one of the choices; you will give up something else by not having the other">Tommy Morrell.
Tommy also said; "just go with one you are most comfortable with and stick with it, then you will find ways around anything you might be missin' with the other".
I tend to listen to Tommy on this one.
Ricky------------------
Ricky Davis
http://hometown.aol.com/sshawaiian/RickyHomepage.html
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html
sshawaiian@aol.com |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 02 May 2000 07:51 PM
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Don Walters brought up this same thread back on December 8th. There's a lot of good answers there too! |
Bobby Bowman
Member From: Cypress, Texas, USA
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posted 02 May 2000 08:49 PM
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Bobby Lee,
May I point out that by raising the third string to C# by itself will but you in an A-7'th (at least part of an A-7'th chord) instead of a B-6'th. When you engage the common 5'th pedal you would be in an A-6'th chord. I take it another step and also raise the 7'th string C to C# on the same lever (my RKR), thereby giving me a fuller a-7'th (or with the 5'th pedal a fuller A-6'th with a root four on the bottom, which if you're on the third fret would be the same F note you have on the 9'th string in the open position.) With the knee lever and pedal 5 in when you add pedal six, you have a "Two" chord just as you would with pedal 5 alone. BTW, I also raise string 7 a half on the eight pedal just like everybody else. With the D on top, I feel I have the best of both worlds. I've had the D on top for about 25 years now and it is my preferrence when I have a choice. One more thing,,,,If you like to hold true to the Remington arrangements in A, it's right there for you.
BB------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good! |
Ernie Renn
Member From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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posted 03 May 2000 04:21 AM
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Buddy started using the D in the late 60's. As for the black album's tuning, he had written several of the tunes prior to changing to a D and decided to do the whole album with the old tuning.
I don't think that the tuning had anything to do with Buddy deciding to not tab the album. I think it had more to do with getting a rhythm track made, than any other single reason. But, I'm relatively sure that there was more than one reason for deciding not to do it.
BTW: Jay - Buddy's Steel Guitarist columns are on the The Fun Stuff Page.------------------
My best,
Ernie
The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com[This message was edited by Ernie Renn on 03 May 2000 at 04:24 AM.] |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 03 May 2000 06:14 AM
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I put the D on in 1977, at the suggestion of Paul Franklin Jr. when he told me "if you want to play modern music or in a minor key, the D note is essential." I can't live without it now. I put the C-C# change (like Bowman on 3 and 7) about 1979.Incidentally, when you go up three frets for the "5th on top" inversion, the first string gives you the fourth (or eleventh) tone of the scale. So the first string can be used there as either a melody string, a suspended tone, or as part of an eleventh chord (if you don't add pedal 5 to the mix). D on top, and C-C# is a very useful change! b0b, you can raise your third string 1/2 tone on the Speedy guitar if you are already raising it a whole tone. Use a knee lever with a bellcrank having either the Emmons type or Sho~Bud type tuneable collar on the changer rod, should be no problem. That changer only prohibits you from both raising and lowering the string, not double raising it. ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Homesite |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 03 May 2000 10:59 AM
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Thanks for the tip, Herb. |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 31 May 2000 09:18 PM
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Boy, everything that can be said about that high D has been said.This forum is really great! A new steelie is getting lessons and information free. Wonderful....I have a E6 tuning so use the 9th. F# on that first string.It is almost exactly the same as C6 only brighter.And as one mentioned, by lowering the tonic C to B , can be used in place of Pedal 7. I lower my tonic E to D# and with the F# have the same two notes up there that is on E9th. I would hope that the newer younger players would go to E6 on the bottom neck, and use all the same C6 pulls. It works great!You can use a set of E9 strings even, except for the low E...top to bottom-
F#-G#-E-C#-B-G#-E-C#-A-E
..............................al |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 26 May 2003 03:34 AM
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I have just tried the G on top at the end of a string sets life. It has a nice tone for me and made some blues licks more complete.
I have some Herbbie Wallace TAB that asks for that string.Seems to be something to both arguments.
So a D for more jazzy stuff and G for bluesy stuff mebe.
Too bad one string gauge can't work well for both. .011's a bit twangy for the D, but I don't imagine a .012 will get up to G too well, .0015 not on it's best, made to Nasa specs, day. P6 and P8 s1 D to D# sounds like Rancho Rhythm Roundup to my ears.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 May 2003 at 03:47 AM.] |
Chuck Martin
Member From: Mc Lean, Virginia
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posted 26 May 2003 05:04 AM
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I have very little experience playing C6th but have owned some D-10s that came with the G on top. I noticed that its usually raised a half step with pedal 5 producing a nice extended "big band" chord; augmented I think. Is that a standard change for you guys that play with a G on top and how do you use it? |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 26 May 2003 07:24 AM
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I beg to differ. I have a G on top with a raise to G# on the fifth pedal, and this with the RKL gives a nice useful major triad. The seventh pedal gives you a rich 6th chord and a lot of pocket possibilities. Scales are meant to go UP as you cross the neck, and a descending note on top is a leftover artifice from E9th wierdism and a sure invitation to demonism, hairy palms and all other sort of mischief. |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 26 May 2003 08:42 AM
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David-One way to have both, and Reece Anderson does on his Bb6 -maj7 th tuning. Is to Keep the G up there and LOWER the 2nd string E to D.! That is a nice very useful pull. Then if you lower the C to B as usually on another knee lever, you have the maj7th tht goes along with P 5 and p6., Thne you don't have to put both feet down to get P 7.
And as you say, you still keep the notes in progressive up order.
I used to do that a lot with my A6,C6 or Bb6th tunings. I got the idea from Reece in 1968.
Now that I play E6, It is too long a pull to go from G# to F# and I don't have the 5th B on top, like the G is on C6. So therefore, I place the F# on the 1st string and G# on 2nd string. And I get Get that chord with the E to F lever 3 frets up, ( I also use the E to F lever for me Boowah 8th pedals) same as mentioned on C6 to Raise the C to C# and go up three frets.
I prefer E6 as it is same bar postions as E9, and a brighter sound than C6....al  [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 26 May 2003 at 08:43 AM.] |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 26 May 2003 09:26 AM
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DavidI'm sure you're right! I've only played C6 for three years after thirty years on E9 - and the 'D' on top of my back neck was a lifesaver for me, giving me a feeling of familiarity as I used the top string for passing notes. Now I've found my way around the 'C' neck a little, I can't help wondering how you guys with that 'G' ever managed ! Raising the 3rd on my LKR gives me even more parity with my 'Day' E9 set-up, as it almost parallels my E-F raise. While my rudimentary fumblings on the back neck barely qualify me to even offer an opinion, I will say that I think the 'three frets up/P5/raise 3rd' has a warmer and thicker timbre than the same chord at 'zero' on the old 'G' tuning - in my view that alone is a major advantage. When I factor in the ease with which passing notes can be accessed with the 'D' on top, it seems (to me, at least) to be a step forward... ------------------
Roger Rettig
[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 26 May 2003 at 09:28 AM.] |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 26 May 2003 12:13 PM
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D on top.It just feels natural for me.. Playing scales across the neck can be extended very naturaly as well as ascending scales taken from different root positions. I almost feel like a Guitar player !
tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 May 2003 at 08:14 AM.]
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David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 26 May 2003 01:19 PM
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Al You have some good logic there too. I see a bit of both camps. I am not locked into either.
I have the half step raise on s1 on the Bowah, which works with the P6, I can see where that is coming from. What I noticed the other day was, musically I was running short of finishing a musical idea several times. When I tried G it was there. Something about the starting point for the idea just wasn't working lower, and higher it came up short. So I looked up this old thread again. I have also bee analysing the neck and the pedals for the 10 string, while following the C6 modal thread in No Peddlers for 6 string, and did some charts which I have on a web site.
http://home.fr.inter.net/animatic/c6_tuning_psg_10_strings.htm I am sure there are few mistakes and I have't looked at the mode changes with pedals.
But this is getting things clearer for me.
I haven't combined pedals yet for a chart, but I will.
I have not looked at alternate roots. Just from C. But expect to. |
Ken Williams
Member From: Arkansas
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posted 28 May 2003 09:03 PM
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I put the D on top about 10 years. Never played much C6 till then because the things I wanted to do seemed immpossible without lightning fast bar movement. I'm speaking of kinda mid to high range single note scale type licks. When I put the D on top everything just seemed to fall into place. Different players have different approaches, but the D on top just seemed to work better for me.Ken
http://home.ipa.net/~kenwill |
Bobby Snell
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 29 May 2003 06:16 AM
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G on top.
Pros:
Western swing and old-timey flavors come easier to me, whereas the D seems to be in the way.Have that octave grip to go along with the C's, A's, E's. Using p6 and rocking on and off p7, there's a lot of good rocking licks. (I seem to gravitate to the C neck for most blues/rock material.) P5 raises to G# (.012 string), which in combination with RKR C-B gives a nice inversion. Sliding up a fret from the I position with that gives the IV. Using the p5 as needed will give major/minor changes up the neck. I like having a difference from the E neck chromatic strings tuning. Yet, if I break the third string on the E neck, the G on top gives some country options. (Listening to Herby Wallace, G on top, as I type.) |
Wayne Cox
Member From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA
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posted 29 May 2003 12:33 PM
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Well, there is at least one more thing to be said about the D on top...have any of you tried swapping places with the D and E? In other words,instead of D E C A etc.,try E D C A etc. Like everything else, it has advantages and disadvantages. Some scales become easier,while some chords become cluttered,IMHO. By the way,it is my understanding that Johnny (COX) has his C6 set up with both a G and a D. But in his own words,"That's today." When all is said and done,I have to go with B.E. on this one.
~~W.C.~~[This message was edited by Wayne Cox on 29 May 2003 at 12:39 PM.] |
Joe Miraglia
Member From: Panama, New York USA
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posted 29 May 2003 04:47 PM
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I tune my first string A 12gage. What A. ?Yes and the 2nd. string E that is the 5th. note of the cord. But that is a different story. I tune to A6th. Why ? like Burger King have it your way Joe. |
Tony Smart
Member From: Harlow. Essex. England
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posted 30 May 2003 03:12 PM
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I keep the G and lower the E to D on a knee lever - a good compromise.
Regards Tony |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 30 May 2003 03:26 PM
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I have both on my D-12's.  My C6 starts F-D-G-E-C-A... |
Chris Scruggs
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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posted 08 June 2003 11:33 PM
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Neither D or G.E is the definite answer. And don't let ANYBODY EVER tell you anything else  ! |
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