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Author
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Topic: Aluminum or Wooden Necks?
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Steve Frost
Member From: Scarborough,Maine
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posted 07 December 2000 03:55 PM
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I'm slaving away on building my pedal steel guitars, one of them birdseye and the other curly maple. I'm curious about the relative merits of aluminum and wooden necks. Is there any kind of a consistent difference in the sound of the finished guitar? Do some brands of pickups complement one material more than another? This is a pretty open question, and I thought perhaps someone had an opinion  or a recommendation for a S12. Whatta ya know? - Steve |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 07 December 2000 10:44 PM
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Well I'll tell ya what a very reputable Guy that has been in the pedal steel guitar business for a long time told me.
"Ricky; you can lay Dog Sh!! under the strings for a neck and would'nt make a difference in sound". He then told me why.
"On a pedal steel guitar the strings are vibrating on changer fingers and those fingers are attached by a shaft that is attached to a mounting system that is attached to your guitar and how it's attached and what it's attached to; is the sound of the vibrations that are picked up by the pickups".
I believe every little part of the whole pedal steel has a little something to do with the sound; but that is the main sound of a pedal steel.
I'm a believer in if you have some beautiful wood body and throw a Aluminum neck on there; that just don't match up to me. Now if it is just a formica(kitchen cabinet)covering of the body; than Aluminum would certainly help out in the looks of it
Ricky |
Dan Dowd
Member From: Paducah,KY
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posted 08 December 2000 02:20 PM
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I have been playing steel for more years than I would care to admit. I have also built many stees,a couple with aluminum necks but most with wood necks. I could never tell any color change in the sound from one or the other. I think there is enough metal in our guitars without adding metal necks. Maybe we should change the name from steel guitars to aluminum guitars. Just kidding. Build what ever you like best. |
Tom Ward
Member From: Port Charlotte, FL 33952
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posted 09 December 2000 07:58 AM
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Wood! |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 09 December 2000 10:41 AM
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Wow!!!With much, much, much respect, I simply must take exception to this. NO way does a wooden neck EVER sound as bright as an aluminum neck at least, on an Emmons' pedal steel guitar. If you folks only knew what research and development I am privy to, straight from Ron Lashley himself, you would KNOW that the Emmons' aluminum neck was even designed to make a decided difference in tone from a wooden neck; EVERY thing else being equal. I had Excel use an aluminum neck on my steel as opposed to his stock wooden neck. There is NO comparison in the tone between the two models. True mine is a wooden body and the others are aluminum bodies. But I do NOT think that is it. I believe with all my heart it is the neck. If, I am wrong, somebody has a very hard sell when it comes to the original "Sho-Bud" sound, and the "new" Emmons sound (early 60's), that set the world on fire respect PSG's. For all practical purposes, it was the aluminum neck on the Emmons versus the wooden neck on the Sho-Bud that made the drastic difference in their respective sounds. Sho-Bud even went so far as to go part way and make an aluminum piece surrounding the changer and pick up area on given models. This was done to counter "complaints" from players that it was NOT bright enough. I know this to be a fact. A number of Sho-Buds were retrofitted with this aluminum surround for this very reason. The late Gene O'neal was one of the players who had this done to get a brighter sound. I am always open for a differences of opinion, but this one... Wow!! God bless you all, carl |
KEVIN OWENS
Member From: OLD HICKORY TN USA
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posted 09 December 2000 02:25 PM
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I think John Hughey had wood necks on those emmons guitars that he played on the Conway stuff. He had enough highs.
Lloyd Green sounds like Lloyd Green with wood or metal necks.
I think 99.9% of the tone is in the player's hands and mind-you have to know what tone you are looking for before you can find it (does that make sense?). I personally like wood necks.Kevin |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 09 December 2000 04:10 PM
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Much of the sound is indeed from the players hands. However that said, The SAME player moving between two guitars equal in every respect, except for wooden versus aluminum necks, WILL sound much brighter on an aluminum neck. Also, and again agreeing that a lot of the sound comes from the hands, EVEN Buddy Emmons said right on this forum that the reason he did not stay with his Sierra and went back to the Emmons was because he had a sound in his head he could only get on the Emmons. Could that have been due to the fact the Sierra has a wooden neck and the Emmons has an aluminum neck? So, while a lot of the sound does come from a player's hands, much of it also comes from the particular type of equipment they use. One other clear example: Jerry Byrd said, NO guitar every built had the sound of a prewar Rick Bakelite. I believe one does have to acknowledge that a particular type of guitar does in fact often make a decided difference in how even the same player sounds. carl |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 09 December 2000 07:23 PM
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There is a difference...not a whole lot, mind you, but...there is a difference! I think everything on a guitar has a little effect on the sound. Some can hear it, and some can't. Ron Lashley once said that simply putting a screw in the wrong place can ruin the sound of a guitar! |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 09 December 2000 07:35 PM
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In his interview in Steel Guitar World Magazine, Del Mullen said his wood necked guitars sounded brighter than those with aluminum necks. Go figger.Lee, from South Texas |
Joe Herchel
unregistered
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posted 10 December 2000 06:48 AM
I'm no building expert so these are just my observations.Ed Fulawka will only make wooden necks. No custom orders for metal. Fulawka's always sounded great to me. Plenty of highs and balance. I play a Carter. They only make aluminum necks. It also sounds great to me. I used to have an MSA, wooden neck. I felt it was lacking in highs, at least for my taste. When I switched to the Carter I thought the neck difference was the main reason for the tone difference. Now I question this factor. There are so many other variables. Interesting thread. ------------------
j0e
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Dan Dowd
Member From: Paducah,KY
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posted 10 December 2000 07:22 AM
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Can someone explain to me how the aluminum neck influnces the raw sound of the guitar. Bill Lawrence to me a couple of years ago that it is a mistake to mount a pickup in a aluminum neck. I didnt comprehend everything Bill was saying, but Im sure he knows what he is talking about. Ha anyone tried different materials for the neck ex; steel carbon for example. I will admit that the Rickenbacker steels sounded different but they were made of all Bakelite. Is there a way of measuring the frequency response and timbre of various mateials for the neck inserts. I personally think how the neck insert is coupled to the guitar body influnces the tone more that the material. Most aluminum necks are a casting and are hollow where mount to the body. Usually a wood is a solid thickness. I guess thats why there are more than one brand of steels. |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 10 December 2000 08:59 AM
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I can tell you this. When Sho-Bud made their foray into aluminum necks in the mid 70's with the Pro-III model, you could compare the sound to the Pro-II, and they were very different. The Pro-III was thinner and brighter, the Pro-II thicker and mellower. Same company, same year, different sound. If it wasn't the wood vs. aluminum necks, then what could it have been? |
Cliff Kane
Member From: Long Beach, CA
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posted 10 December 2000 10:48 AM
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Interesting discussion! My LDG certainly has a woody tone, or a woody color to the sound. It has a wooden neck on lacquered solid maple. I wonder how formica vs. lacquered solid wood factors into this. My LDG is very resonate (you can feel the wood vibrate with the strings), and I'm sure that this is a factor in its sound. I suspect that if I glued some formica to it, it would lose some of its resonance, and if it were less resonate it might sound brighter, too, as less vibration would be absorbed by the body (perhaps a metal neck does this). This makes me wonder if formica laminated bodies are part of the brighter, "modern" sound, along with metal necks. Any ideas on the mica factor? Cliff
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Ann Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas, USA
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posted 10 December 2000 10:55 AM
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Cliff: Bud Carter has written 2 "Ask Bud!" articles about the 2 topics you raised which may shed more light on the subject for you and others: "Ask Bud!" INDEXCheck out these 2 articles:
Hope that helps! Ann Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars
617 West Kearney Street
Suite 101
Mesquite, Texas 75149 USA
1-800-969-7332 orders (accessories and steels)
1-972-288-9100 technical info
1-972-288-9169 FAX
www.steelguitar.com
The Steel Guitar Information Resource
www.steelguitarINFO.com
OnLine Steel Guitarists Directory
www.OnLineSteelers.com
[This message was edited by Ann Fabian on 10 December 2000 at 10:56 AM.]
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Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 10 December 2000 10:56 AM
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As David said, we need a scientific study to put the debate to a rest. I suppose someone who had access to spectrum analyzer scope, and a guitar builder could make a very detailed anaylsis of the overtones with each type of neck. They would, of course, have to use a guitar that is available with either type of neck, and then just swap the necks for each test.It would be interesting, indeed! |
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 10 December 2000 11:00 AM
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I was told by a steel builder that much R&D has been done even with different mica adhesives. I would have been sceptical that this would be a significant sound factor except that this was a builder with much better things to be doing than screwing around with mica goo if he had a choice. But he was that committed to the premise different sonic properties of different adhesives.
If the instrument is sensitive to that, then there's no surprise that it would be sensitive to larger factors like mica/nekkid, wood/aluminum. |
Cliff Kane
Member From: Long Beach, CA
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posted 10 December 2000 12:15 PM
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Ann: thanks for those links! Once again, you folks got lots of great info! Bud says that there is a difference in sound between mica and laquered wood guitars, but he doesn't classify the tone of either. I don't know as there are so many factors at play when I hear a PSG, and I've only had experience with my LDG. Is there a general difference between mica and laquered wood, such as the bright vs. mellow or Sho-Bud vs. Emmons tone perceptions that folks place on wood and aluminum necks, or is it more variable?Thanks, and happy holidays y'all![This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 10 December 2000 at 12:17 PM.] |
Moon in Alaska
Member From: Kasilof, Alaska **** way up NORTH TO ALASKA
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posted 10 December 2000 12:49 PM
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It has been my experience that all the modern guitars are MUCH more lively. There seems to be a heck of a lot more bar noise when you run the bar up and down the strings with out muting. I also find greatly increased sustain !! My Carter with an alum neck has a heck of a lot more sustain, as measured by strumming the strings with no amp, and feeling and hearing how long that vibration last. I have no idea if the alum neck makes the difference, or some of the difference !! I feel comfortable playing my old Fender-400 which I think has a very good sound, but does not sustain nearly as long as the Carter. I can get all the sustain I need with the volume pedal, so that difference don't matter much with me. But, running the bar up and down the strings, requires a little more muting on the alum neck Carter. Does the alum make a difference ? I have no idea but will say if Bud Carter put it on there, I would think it does !! 
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<< Moon Mullin in Alaska >>
==Carter S-10==
<< Old Fender-400 >>
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
Click HERE for Moon's Home Page
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Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 10 December 2000 03:20 PM
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Each and every guitar metioned here has a different changer in it from one to the other. That is what the strings vibrate on and that is what is mounted in what ever guitar you have.
To clarify more. You can have a ShoBud proll and a ShoBud prolll and they will sound different Not because of wood vs. metal neck; but because they are different Changers.
Ok one more time. The strings vibrate on changer fingers and the pickup picks up the sound of that vibration and is amplified through your amplifier. What that changer is and what the changer is mounted to>distigishes the true sound of that particular "pedal steel" guitar.
Ricky------------------
Ricky Davis 
My Homepage
Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@aol.com |
Robert
Member From: Champaign, IL
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posted 10 December 2000 06:26 PM
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And now to muddle things further: density and resonance of woods can vary within even a single tree, not to mention varieties of trees, e.g., maple, mahogany, walnut, etc. So one could feasibly have a wood-necked instrument that sounded AS bright, if not brighter than an aluminum neck. Happy Holidays, Rob |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 10 December 2000 07:02 PM
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Here is what baffles me. On most pedal steel guitars, the neck is just attached to the body. The roller nut straddles the neck, but doesn't touch it. The changer is attached to the body, but doesn't touch the neck. I have a tough time believing that the neck material makes any difference. Different weights and densities could make a difference, I suppose, just by making the body more rigid. I think this would be easier to buy if the changer and the nut were attached to the neck. Of course, I'm just a banker, not an engineer. What do I know?  Lee, from South Texas |
Dan Dowd
Member From: Paducah,KY
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posted 11 December 2000 06:10 AM
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Does anyone remember the fender Tripple necks with 3 legs and the Stringmasters. In my opinon they were the brightest sounding guitars ever built. No aluminum necks and if it was a bright sound you wanted you had it. I think a lot of the tone is in the pickups. The fender's pickups were wound with a lot less wire than the Sho-Bud or Emmons. Im still not convienced the aluminum necks change the sound that much and if they do or don't the player could tweak his amp to compensate for it one way or the other. I'll stick with wood necks. |
David Biagini
Member From: San Jose, CA, USA
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posted 11 December 2000 07:19 AM
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What Ricky said. The type of changer contributes most to the tone of the guitar followed by the wood and whether it is lacquer or mica, and then the pickups. |
Steve Feldman
Member From: Millbury, MA USA
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posted 11 December 2000 08:21 AM
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quote:
Ok one more time. The strings vibrate on changer fingers and the pickup picks up the sound of that vibration and is amplified through your amplifier.
Using just one example that comes to mind, the fact that the changer finger on PP Emmons' contacts the guitar body (as well as the Carter BCT) has been the reason that I hear most often cited as being responsible for "that sound". Whether some Emmonses have "that sound" or not, probably depends on other factors besides simply string vibration through the changer and pickup response. - e.g., top (wood) characteristics, etc. Coming from an acoustic background, I will admit to this bias, but I guess I just see instrument effects on tone as being complex. |
Sage
Member From: Boulder, Colorado
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posted 11 December 2000 10:22 AM
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This is a large animal. IMO it breaks down into a)how the string energy is transferred into the instrument, b)the resonance of the instrument itself, and c)the coloration of the pickup and amplifier. That is just the instrument side, I still think that the player contributes the most to making a beautiful tone. Regarding a)above, the changer/nut mounting designs and tuner mounting and design are critical, but only some fraction (1/3?) of the whole. Likewise the resonance of the cabinet contributes. Monks used to hoard the secret of glue and finish) formulas for the best instrument makers because it made such a difference in the sound (and we're still into construction adhesive and formica??!). Wood vs. Alumiunum necks factor in here in a proportional way depending on how they are mounted and how much responsibility they have for carrying string energy vs. being just additions to the overall resonance of the cabinet. The final color comes from the pickup, and then the amp. It is helpful for myself to break it down this way, otherwise it is too easy to get lost when pondering these very intricate relationships.
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KENNY KRUPNICK
Member From: Grove City,Ohio
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posted 11 December 2000 11:34 PM
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I like both,have both,but Aluminum necks is my favorite way to go. |
Bill Stafford
Member From: Gulfport,Ms. USA
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posted 12 December 2000 04:03 AM
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Hey, Dan Dowd, do you remember the scale length on those Fender Stringmasters? |
Bob Hayes
Member From: Church Hill,Tenn,USA
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posted 12 December 2000 05:46 AM
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Thanks to all off you for this great disscussion. For a while I had a Sho Bud Professional and then got a brand new MSA ClasSic. Well that was almost 20 ears ago. I still have my MSA. And unlike some of you .I can't afford to put out $3000 or $4000 for a new steel. I've done my own maintenance and modifications for years. I feel that I KNOW my steel very well. I've been considering reconditioning it and was considering changing my wooden neck for an aluminum neck..because I noticed that most of the NEW steels being made do Have aluminum necks and have a Brighter or "biteier" sound. I can get that somewhat with the amp settings..but it still isn't RIGHT. Todays music have a more "attack" sound then the older music did.. So to keep up with the times it does seem to me that a change is in order.
One other thing..What can I do with the back legs the threads seam to worn..Should I try to get new ones or is there some sort of threading insert or material to use? Can anybody help?
Bob Hayes A poor old steel picker |
Dan Dowd
Member From: Paducah,KY
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posted 12 December 2000 05:47 AM
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Hey Bill, I think the 3 leg 3 neck Fender was 22 or 23. The Stringmaster I think was 25. However I have been not always right but never wrong. Ha |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 12 December 2000 06:04 AM
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Bob, first make sure it's the leg sockets in the guitar that are worn and not the steel plugs in the legs that are worn. If it is the leg sockets and there is enough aluminum surounding the hole, you could have a machine shop drill out the holes enough to insert helicoils. A helicoil looks like a coiled steel spring where the internal windings are the thread size you want, which is which for the leg holes is a 1/2-13 thread if memory serves. Properly done, the fix would only be visible when the guitar is upside down in the case. |
Bobby Bowman
Member From: Cypress, Texas, USA
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posted 12 December 2000 06:22 AM
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I guess if you want to split hairs on this subject, you could take it down even further. What effect does the fret marker have, when attached to the neck? If it's metal, plastic, wood, paper,,,,is it glued, screwed or silk screened,,,,how thick is it,,,,and on and on and on? Does it make a difference if you use stainless screws, aluminum, plated, brass or whatever? Does it make a difference if you use wood glue, contact cement or some other adhesive? How about the size of the fasteners, both length and width?
What about the type and catagory of metals, 6061 or 7075 (typical),,,,stainless, brass, bronze?----type of strings, scale length, type and brand/kind of pick-up, rubber or plastic tips on the leg ends, tone bar, picks, right and left hand technic and probably a hundred other things to consider.
The obvious answer to all of these questions is a bottom line, yes. How much of a yes is yet a larger discussion, which is what we have in this thread.
I tend to think the most important factor is the player. However,,,,the guitar, with all of the variables discussed here and other places and times, does have an impact.
Final answer-----find one you like, play it the best you can and enjoy the discussions and debates of the autopsy. 
BB------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good! |
Sage
Member From: Boulder, Colorado
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posted 12 December 2000 10:52 AM
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Amen to that, Mr. Bowman.
Best regards- Sage |
Marco Schouten
Member From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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posted 12 December 2000 11:11 AM
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I notice on my Sho-Bud that when I play the strings, the return springs "under the hood" are also vibrating. I can imagin that this can change the sound. Also the wood and aluminium necks vibrate. Probably a lot of factors do have an influance on the sound. (Hope I spelled that one right)------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom |
Bob Hayes
Member From: Church Hill,Tenn,USA
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posted 13 December 2000 04:18 AM
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Jim,
Thanx for the advise.My mind is getting to the point that I can't think logical at times.I'll check around a machine shop somewhere in my area for the fix. Thannks again,Great help.
Bob
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Steve Frost
Member From: Scarborough,Maine
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posted 13 December 2000 03:15 PM
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Thanks for the discussion, one and all. I wasn't really expecting a silver bullet to guarantee results. I'm inclined to go with the wooden necks,though, since I prefer the look, the ease of machining....and I've got just about enough aluminum chips in my basement as it is!
Ricky- I enjoyed your comment about the notion that an aluminum neck would likely improve the look of a formica clad cabinet.BTW- Formica is a brand name of plastic laminate , to be industrially correct. Mica, on the other hand is a flaky mineral. The description "laminate" will cover the necessary ground. Thanks- Steve |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 13 December 2000 04:57 PM
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Let us read Ricky's explanation again. it makes a lot of sense. If the changer fingers touch the wood body, there is bound to be an improvement in the sound. Proof?Not scientific, but I played an older Carter , then played a new Carter with the BCT technology and Wow! A much greater sound, in my opinion, and in many others too. I have noticed as mentioned here , that for mellow, Wood Neck,,, for bright Aluminum Neck. All things being equal.Good Post...Happy Holiday Season...al |
Andy Alford
Member From: Alabama
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posted 04 October 2002 02:17 PM
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A wood neck does or does not not sound as bright as a metal one? |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 04 October 2002 02:45 PM
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On the same guitar, an aluminum neck will sound brighter than a wooden neck.I've never heard anyone argue successfully to the contrary. |
Peter Siegel
Member From: Belmont, CA, USA
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posted 04 October 2002 03:29 PM
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My 2 cents worth is as follows. The various materials a guitar is made of, wood aluminum, whatever, have different frequencies at which they resonate and will affect the tone of the guitar in some way. What a person prefers and what sounds best in your hands is up to the individual. However I had a Sho Bud Pro3 with aluminum necks for many years, it was the first double neck I owned. I liked the sound but it was extremely sensitive to temperature changes. Staying in tune when gigging outdoors was always a struggle and playing in the sun was really tough. Wood necks i.e. my Dekley do not seem to have much trouble with this. So wood might be a more stable choice. Anyone else had this experience? |
Peter Siegel
Member From: Belmont, CA, USA
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posted 04 October 2002 03:32 PM
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My 2 cents worth is as follows. The various materials a guitar is made of, wood aluminum, whatever, have different frequencies at which they resonate and will affect the tone of the guitar in some way. What a person prefers and what sounds best in your hands is up to the individual. However I had a Sho Bud Pro3 with aluminum necks for many years, it was the first double neck I owned. I liked the sound but it was extremely sensitive to temperature changes. Staying in tune when gigging outdoors was always a struggle and playing in the sun was really tough. Wood necks i.e. my Dekley do not seem to have much trouble with this. So wood might be a more stable choice. Anyone else had this experience? |
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