"I tried it and was wayout of tune."

Well, is it really out of tune? Some say that 440 is IN tune. It depends a lot on how one comes up through their musical background. Plus, years of ear training.

Because of the PSG's unique "overtones", it tends to sound in tune when there are little to NO beats between any two strings in most cases (7th's, Dim's and aug's excepted). This is called Just Intonation tuning. But this is NOT the same for all instruments. For example a piano can sound quite pleasant with beats between notes.

Also, as one's ear becomes more and more cultured listening to all kinds of music, beats between notes (primarily 3rd's) do not sound as much out of tune as they once did.

This can easily be proven with a common scenario. Tune your steel 'til it sounds perfectly IN tune to you by yourself.

THEN, sit in with a band and immediately it sounds OUT of tune. The reason is; many of the band instruments are tuned (because they have NO choice) so there are beats between notes. Then, the clash with the steel sounds out of tune.

Further proof is the old E chord versus C chord "tail chase" on a regular guitar. Tune it til it sounds perfectly in tune for the E chord. The C chord will sound terrible. The reverse is also true. A compromise is necessary here.

In other words, in order for the E AND the C chord to sound reasonably IN tune there must be beats between the 3rds in the E chord AND the C chord. Or put more succinctly, "tuning to (or close) to 440"!

These two examples will plague and frustrate a steel guitar player forever, unless he understands what is happening. And lives with it.

It is why several players (having tuned JI) for soooo many years, now tune closer and closer to ET (440 reference). Weldon Myrick tunes 440 straight up for all strings with AND without pedals/knee levers. And yet he tuned JI for 40 yrs! Go figure.

It is ALSO why many pianists listening to a "perfectly in tune" PSG will comment,

"Your steel is FLAT!!". Now why would they feel that way and WE feel it is IN tune? It's the SAME sound. Just different ears.

You are correct if you say it sounds out of tune when you tune 440. However, how an instrument sounds does NOT make it IN or OUT of tune.

It depends.

God bless you,

quote:

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However, how an instrument sounds does NOT make it IN or OUT of tune.

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Wheeooo !

Bob

quote:

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This can easily be proven with a common scenario. Tune your steel 'til it sounds perfectly IN tune to you by yourself.

THEN, sit in with a band and immediately it sounds OUT of tune.

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Bill Cole

[This message was edited by B Cole on 29 April 2002 at 09:01 PM.]

Wheeoo (to the infinite power...)

I read your post and it is a subject that I had to reply on. First, I have never claimed to be much of a steel player but I love it too much to give it up. I have however been lucky enough to spend a lot of time around some incredible steel players, too many to list here. To my ear, and what sounds the most pleasing to me, is when the steel is tuned to be in tune with itself which means that all strings cannot be tuned "straight up" with the tuner and that the thirds need to be slightly flatted, etc. I have to agree with b0b on this, in my experiences this will sound in tune with the rest of the band if they are in tune themselves. However, this does require the constant moving slightly above and below the fret-lines and in some cases even slanting the bar to compensate on some inversions, etc. It is a pain but just part of playing the instrument and very worth the effort to me.

I have heard way too many cases of taking tuning methods that are more of the "all strings straight up" variations or the "sharpened thirds" approach and over-compensating with them to the point of sounding just horribly out of tune even on open strings. Like pulling teeth to listen to. Then when you push the pedals down it gets even more out of tune, severe beats everywhere....just dissonant as can be. It can sound like hell and I've wondered how that kind of harsh tuning can ever become pleasant. The "ear training over time" only makes sense to me if you're training your ear to recognize and hone in on true harmony,which is definitely tempered. Not to step on any toes because I am nobody but to me, if it's out of tune with itself how can it be in tune with the band? I guess that approach means kind of "shooting in the middle" and being partly in and partly out of tune with the entire picture the whole time. That might work for some guys and that's their option but I just can't take it!

I think you are on the right track with wanting to hear the tempered tuning. It's a lot more work, granted, because I'm compensating above and below the fret constantly and slanting and so forth, but if it sounded better and more in tune to play on barbed-wire pedals...I'd have bloody feet!

Again, it's just my humble observation and this is a much debated topic. It's an individual call and I try to respect all points of view. There's no real right or wrong here. I just know that this is how the most in-tune players I know tune their axes and they always sound in tune to me and the players around here that I respect the most. Hope I haven't insulted anyone. It's just one opinion. The sad truth is that it's never really, totally in tune everywhere, no matter what!! Yikes!!!

For recording or solo playing I take a great deal of time tuning the octaves, 5ths and 3rds on adjacent strings to ear after getting a reference tone.

Wheeooo !

Bob

You are CORRECT!

Thanks for pointing the error out.

I should have added "to one's ears" between the words "sounds" and "does".

The answer is:

It is the overtones (harmonics of played notes) that distinguish the difference in sound of one instrument versus another. Most people can easily tell it was a piano that played a given note from say a Trumpet. Or any other instrument. Why is this if they play the exact same note?

When a note is played one hears MORE than just the note played. Each instrument gives out a certain number of discernable harmonics (overtones) and the level plus number of these overtones is different for EACH instrument.

Pianos and regular guitars (among other instruments) have little choice if any, in tuning. They simply are tuned straight up or very close to it. Because a steel guitar uses a straight bar, it was very easy from the onset, to tune EACH chord (each fret) for no beats (E13th tuning excepted).

It was not until the advent of pedal/knee lever combinations that the dilemma most other instruments face entered its ugly head. The first example is strings 1 and 7 (pedals up versus down).

From that day, the scenario of trial and error, hours of frustrated tuning efforts and debate (such as this thread) abounds.

But this is NOT new. I have read that Beethoven was so determined to get around the problem he designed a piano around his "thesis". But it could only play in one key! Chet Atkins once said on stage, "If I EVER get this Git'-tar in tune, I am going to solder it!! "

Jeff brings up a most poignant point. WHY is it that we hold to JI when other instruments have NO choice?

I tune JI. Always have and always will. I can't stand to play it straight up. But that does NOT make it correct.

The greatest player I ever heard (outside BE), has his thirds (to my ear) SOOO sharp, I cannot stand to play his guitar without flatting them. Yet when HE plays, it is simply music from heaven. WHY????

Debating this will go on forever. But, we still come back to the fact that many steel guitar players tune "OUT OF TUNE" with the rest of the musical world. Why is this?

carl

Man invented equal temperament (ET) to accomodate the diatonic system of music, another of man's inventions, in a variety of "keys".

The human ear will resolve the unnatural intervals of ET to their JI counterparts. It's what we want to hear. We are God's creatures, after all.

Guitars and pianos don't sustain notes very long. The fleeting memory of the decaying notes resolves to God's natural harmony in the listener's head.

Sustaining notes on an electronic keyboard do sound out of tune. Many of those patches use chorus and similar effects to mask the beat effect.

The steel guitar is unique in that it allows JI triads to be played in any key. Previously, the only way to do this was to assign single notes to multiple instruments, as in a string quartet (or an orchestra).

A barbershop quartet sings in JI. If you add a piano, the listener's ear resolves the piano's tones to match the quartet. This annoys the singers a bit, but the listener won't notice any "out of tuneness". All God's creatures want to hear just intonation.

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Re: Tuning the steel
From: Buddy
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 12:19:21

Comments

The best way to have equal temperament of all pedal changes and be in tune with all other instruments is to tune 440. Anything beyond that is a compromise to accommodate the flexing of cabinets and/or what one personally perceives as being in tune (semantics). That would apply to either neck.

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Where can I find this "Ask Buddy" website?

Thanks,

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But because the PSG plays chords and sustains them, the effect is more pronounced. And therefore, the problem is singularly unique to PSG. And the argument that "since pianos and 6-string are tuned ET, then why not PSG" isn't valid because of the sustaining characteristic of the PSG. Do you feel that you have scientifically accounted for this paradox?

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 30 April 2002 at 02:48 PM.]

Actually, listening to beats that are so logically arranged, while tuning a piano, can be kind of satisfying.

I agree with the "decay envelope" theory, although I wonder if it also accounts for the initial sound itself. The PSG's structural characteristics make those two or three note things really jump out in the first place, as does the bar. What other instrument can do that?

There are a couple other sonic reasons why a pedalsteel has more tuning issues than some other instruments. It has to do with the numbers of accented even
and/or odd overtones within the sound of a steel. Other instruments that have to deal with tuning issues in a similar way are french horns, flutes and oboes.

If tuning to 440 somehow helps anybody deal with there instrument than go ahead.
Whatever works works.
This issue is in no way unique to steel players. The reality as I see it is that absolutly nobody making music in any form gives a flying fart about being correct. All that matters is that it sounds good. For it to sound good you need to train your ears.

Here is what young classical players are doing these days to get there intonation together:

www.codamusic.com/coda/it.asp

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There are a couple other sonic reasons why a pedalsteel has more tuning issues than some other instruments. It has to do with the numbers of accented even
and/or odd overtones within the sound of a steel.

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This issue is in no way unique to steel players.

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My problem with the subject is the often explicit statements that there is something wrong with the fact that most of us DON'T tune ET. "How come pianos and 6-string do, but we don't?" etc. etc. Well, you, Carl, and b0b seem to have figured out that there are musical dynamics related to overtones that would account for the fact that, while those instruments can tune ET, we can't. And you point out that the issue is rampant amoung many other instruments, but we are only aware of what our issues are. So, the conclusion I reach, which is what I was looking for, is that when someone makes the point that we should tune straight 440 (ET) because pianos and other fixed instruments do, that you are mixing apples and oranges. The two cannot be directly compared, so they cannot be used as the rational for why the steel should be tuned that way. I hope that overtone idea really is valid. Anytime the point is brought up in the future, then the reason should be "overtones". Hope that's right. Thanks.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 02 May 2002 at 04:29 AM.]

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Well, you, Carl, and b0b seem to have figured out that there are musical dynamics related to overtones that would account for the fact that, while those instruments can tune ET, we can't.

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I hope that overtone idea really is valid. Anytime the point is brought up in the future, then the reason should be "overtones". Hope that's right

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Well I couldn't resist.... I have a spectrum analyzer plug-in for Sound Forge and I just did the following:

Played an A 440 note on my Frypan (with 1 1/2" horseshoe magnets)...no vibrato just sounded the note. Did the same with a Gibson SG (same amp/settings/wide open pots)and an upright acoustic piano.

The results were OVERWELHMING...the Frypan had the first 10 HARMONICS (A,A,E,A,C#,E,G,A,B,C#) showing up with relative intensities that were VERY SIMILAR(they show up as colors which vary with intensities). The other two instruments lacked various individual harmonics and they (the harmonics that were there) varied widely in intensity (colors).

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The bottom line is that the ear is tolerant of thirds that are tuned anywhere between 385 cents (JI) and 400 cents (ET).

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They were normalized but otherwise "unedited".

I hope this helps!!

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"How come pianos and 6-string do, but we don't?"

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Check it with a tuner if you want, or ask a pro piano tuner :
Pianos do not tune to 440 either.

Tuning stuff is all messed up for all western instruments. Its all a big mish mosh of contradictions and compromises. If anybody wants to play in tune they need to train there ears to handle whatever sonic issues that come up.

Weds I spent all day doing overdubs on a pop record that was some of the best music i have ever dealt with. It had a strech tuned piano, jazz string bass player that leaned flat, 2 acoustic guitar tracks and a classical string quartet where the violins leaned sharp.Oh yea, and a chick singer scratch voc that was all over the place. I had to play pads, fills and solos and make sure it all sounded sweet. It was a freakin intonation nightmare ! Trying to use a tuner in a situation like that is sorta like being attacked by 7 hungry, rabid grizzly bears and trying to use a boy scout compass to defend yourself.

With that said I can see how tuning 440 on a steel could make perfect sense as a way of dealing with the neck. Nothing is going to work without the ears though.

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I think I have a handle on this. The bottom line is that the ear is tolerant of thirds that are tuned anywhere between 385 cents (JI) and 400 cents (ET). Outside of that range you will sound out of tune. Within that 15 cent range, most musicians and all audiences will agree that you are in tune.

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b0b, I'm not trying to be picky, but the way I read that is that you are saying it really doesn't matter whether somebody tunes to E.T or J.I., because it will still sound in tune. And yet you also acknowledge in these discussions that musicians DO hear a significant difference. Could you clarify this for me?

Also, when you speak about pianos being tuned with a "stretch temperamnent" so that they are "sweeter than E.T.," are you saying they are closer to J.I, or something like that? I have always understood the "stretching" of octaves to be a compensation for "inharmonicity," which causes overtones to be sharp. This means that a piano must be tuned so that even the fundamental pitches get increasingly sharp as you go up the keyboard from center, and flat as you go down. This allows coinciding harmonics between chord tones over a wide range of the keyboard to sound more in tune.

The temperament octave in the center, as far as I know, is tuned to achieve 12 equally spaced notes (E.T,) although this is done by tuning overtones to each other rather than fundamentals.

I'm just curious about the specific theory or phenomena you're talking about.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 02 May 2002 at 03:20 PM.]

"The reality as I see it is that absolutely nobody making music in any form gives a flying fart about being correct. All that matters is that it sounds good. For it to sound good you need to train your ears."-Bob Hoffnar

That's exactly my point Bob. What I was trying to point out in my observation was that I've heard too many steelers take a theory and overcompensate with it, not paying any attention to what their ears are attempting to tell them. Just doing what they've heard is "correct". The danger there to me is getting used to a tuning that sounds like Godzilla's breath to most everyone else and thinking that it's "right" because so & so said, even though they've drastically overcompensated the theory they've heard about. I've seen cases where nobody knows how to tell them just how drastically "out" it sounds and by now they have probably totally cofused their ears and pitch definitions anyway.

I'm also a guitar player and that is a constant tuning nightmare, work all the time. You can only compensate so much and there's only so much "english" you can pull off while playing, especially chords. With pianos we have absolutely no control over the movement in pitch of any of the notes so we're kind of just stuck with the best we can do there, unfortunately, but can get used to it. But on steel, we can move quite a bit which definitely helps in a lot of situations. BE sounds awesome everytime but I've heard guys take his tuning ideas and over-do them then claim that tuning came from BE, not doing his tuning ideas any justice. They work for him that's for sure. Buddy is like Randy Reinhard to me in that they could be in the middle of the most out-of-tune yokels in the world and still sound so in-tune! I suspect the hands my friends.