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Author
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Topic: Robert Randolph's New Pedal Steel
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Dennis Olearchik
Member From: Newtown, PA
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posted 11 April 2003 07:57 PM
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Sage, any more info about how this baby is coming along?
http://www.harmosmusic.com/images/MVC-452F-clnB.jpg
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jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 11 April 2003 08:05 PM
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wild, believe it our not,,,it makes sense to me |
Rich Weiss
Member From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA
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posted 11 April 2003 10:01 PM
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A friend of mine played this a few months ago. I believe he said that all the bugs had not yet been worked out at that time. The way it's put together, very tight and with no slop, supposedly eliminates the need for a cabinet with a lot of mass. It's very light. I believe he also makes a lap steel, which sounds amazing. Is this correct, Sage? I'm going by my memory, which is very short-term. 
[This message was edited by Rich Weiss on 11 April 2003 at 10:09 PM.] |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 12 April 2003 02:14 AM
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How does the changer work? Can it do multiple raises and nlowers?Are there any knee levers? |
Dennis Olearchik
Member From: Newtown, PA
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posted 12 April 2003 04:30 AM
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Two more pics...
http://www.harmosmusic.com/news.htm#PressRelease |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 12 April 2003 06:28 AM
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Well it's certainly beyond the conventional Steel..I thought that the new MSA was the new "Carbon FIBER" technology..No ?Knee Levers ? ..good question .. Maybe they will become extinct ... In can see it now..new players that Robert has introduced to the Pedal Steel will get hooked and go out to buy one, They will see a conventional Emmons or a Fessy , heck even the new MSA , and maybe even a Carter and say.. "Thats not a Pedal Steel " "I want a real Pedal Steel like Robert plays" ... One never knows... TP [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 12 April 2003 at 06:35 AM.]
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Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 12 April 2003 08:24 AM
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Believe it or not, there are players who can play without 12 knee levers and without a 6 raise/6 lower changer.  |
Chris Forbes
Member From: Beltsville, MD, USA
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posted 12 April 2003 09:25 AM
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It's certainly not your father's Sho-Bud (nor mine for that matter!!). |
Dennis Olearchik
Member From: Newtown, PA
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posted 12 April 2003 11:05 AM
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I fell in luv with the looks and sounds of the 60's era Fender pedal steels (w/the beautiful sunburst finishes). In the 70's, I became aware of Sho-Buds and ZBs and I fell in luv with these guitars as well. Since then, these guitars have defined (for me!) what a PSG is all about (even though they're no longer made). But imho, I think Sage is doing something wonderful and significant in developing this new pedal steel guitar. I just hope it doesn't cost $6k and I can get it with a combintion of Aiello/lLollar and MIDI pick-ups
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 12 April 2003 11:37 AM
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Looks like something from the movie "Brazil".
Seriously, I'd like to know how this thing works. At first glance it looks like it would be very limited mechanically, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Some of the greatest steel music ever made was on "limited" instruments.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 12 April 2003 12:46 PM
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I played a Tiesco pedal steel in Korea for several months that had pedal hookups like that......They were actually motorcycle throttle cables and worked fairly well as long as I kept them lubricated. www.genejones.com |
Sage
Member From: Boulder, Colorado
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posted 13 April 2003 01:24 PM
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Howdy all- Thanks for the questions. Dennis O, It is finally working and with Robert somewhere. He used it to record a couple of songs on his new album. One of them is the old gospel standard "Nobody", which is a kickin' song. I got a LOT of help from some great friends to be able to build this. You should know that this is the first and only pedal steel I have ever made, and it is consequently kind of rough. It was a proof of concept prototype- I wanted to try some design principles and see how they turned out. Jim, it is wild and I had the idea for it over ten years ago when I sold my '64 Dodge Dart for a box of tools and enough cash to start making models and crude prototypes. Rich, Lap steels are what we make at Harmos Steel Guitars. The carbon fiber octet truss body is exactly the same that is used on our lap steels, weighing less than one pound. With 13 strings @ about 380 lbs of tension plus the force of the changes bearing against it, the frame does an amazing job holding it all together. The body is mounted to the perimiter frame (round tubes) at four points (Thank you Leo Fender). One end is bolted firmly and the other end floats a little, to compensate for the different thermal expansion rates of carbon fiber and aluminum. Mike, there are 5 knee levers. The changer was made by Glenn Taylor in Denver. Glenn Taylor, Joshua Motohashi and I used to go out for lunch years ago in Denver and talk pedal steel design. We dreampt up the idea of putting the tuners on top of the changer fingers, and putting the whole thing over on the nut end. That leaves the guitar with a fixed bridge that can interact with the body like a lap steel, and moves the mechanical noise away from the pickups. My children came along earlier than Glenn's did, and he followed through and became the first builder I know of to do this. He has built several beautiful MOYO guitars (his brand, which means HEART) with this type of changer. It is a Klein style unit, so it can be made to pull just about anything, but not easy for changing setups. There are 29 pulls on Robert's setup, and it was like building three ships in a bottle to get them inside of the spaceframe. Not a commercial design. When I thought this thing up, I was anticipating that servo changers would work. Well, they may be closer than some think (and may still not ultimately be the thing), but at the time I started making this one (two years ago) they might as well have been on the moon. When I first began over ten years ago, I figured that my design was about 25 years ahead of it's time. Hey folks- less than 15 to go! A lot of good ideas could be tried to further the development of our beloved PSG at this point, but you either have to be independently wealthy with lots of time (not me) or just be persistent and do the best you can with what you have. Frankly, I have a lot of gall even getting into this right now, with so many master builders at the height of their art. That is the main reason that I'm not going to try to make a production version right now. The economics of this industry are bad enough without tilting at windmills with a carbon fiber lance. I love the instrument and wanted to make one that was really hot, that growled and sang and had insane amounts of sustain. One that caught the eye and the imagination, and would hold it's own in today's music. By the grace from beyond and with a lot of help from my friends, I did just that. To see some of the inspiration for this, find the old Pedal Rod article "Food For Thought" by Jeff Newman from about 1990. While the great builders of today have been creating Cadillacs, Lincolns, Rolls, and even a Deusenberg or two (all fine makes), I wanted to make the Ferrari of steel guitars. This prototype isn't ready to wear Enzo's horse yet, but maybe someday. Actually, the curved legs and cables were inspired by the Audi TT. At Dan Tyack's suggestion, I designed it to fold up- the body swings down into the rectangle formed by the leg uprights, and the legs themselves fold into the remaining space. Since it is cable, no pedal rods need to be hooked up. Setup takes about 30 seconds. Weight is 25 lbs total, out of the case. The fretboard in the photo is not the "real" one, I grabbed a reject (bowed) 8 string board because the psg boards hadn't come in yet. The semi-transparent plate on the front of the guitar is a red/purple/blue color shifting hologram with wave patterns and gold/copper reflection. B0b and Gene, It does use bicycle brake cable up through the "manifold" at the bridge end of the guitar, and then the pulls are split into a (more or less) equalized yoke system of 3/32 stainless rod inside of the spaceframe. The pedals are too squishy and inexact, and the effort remains too high on this one. Next time around I'll try something different.
T. Sage Harmos
Harmos Steel Guitars[This message was edited by Sage on 13 April 2003 at 01:52 PM.] |
b0b
Sysop From: Cloverdale, California, USA
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posted 13 April 2003 02:10 PM
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I want one, Sage!  |
Sage
Member From: Boulder, Colorado
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posted 13 April 2003 02:26 PM
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Well B0b, we leased the guitar to RR because we couldn't ask a reasonable price and recover the costs of the ONE that I made. So, in about two years what's left of it might be for sale . Hopefully, by then I'll have another one or two built- who knows? Of course, if someone wants to throw truly silly ammounts of money at me to make another one now, I'll be happy to. Thanks.[This message was edited by Sage on 13 April 2003 at 02:28 PM.] |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 13 April 2003 04:02 PM
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Sage, thank you for your explanation of the design of your prototype guitar....it is without a doubt innovative and worthy of further exploration and I sincerely wish you well in your development of the Harmos.In reference to my post above, I just want to assure you that my comments were only in reference to the mechanics of the guitar that I was playing, and I did not intend to infer any judgement or comparison to your guitar other than the location and appearance of the cables. I wish you well in the development of your prototype. Best wishes, www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 13 April 2003 at 04:08 PM.] |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 13 April 2003 05:21 PM
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Sage!
How cool that thing is! If you could make a version of this thing that'll stay in tune you could change whole game here. It has a mechanical, black rot iron look about it. It's modern. If it plays good and stays in tune it'll win with a bunch of working musicians me included. What about Titanium tubular design? It's more expensive but light and stronger than steel tubing I hear. If you could make it more affordable than the wood bodies yet sound good you'd have a winner. |
Bill Moore
Member From: Manchester, Michigan
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posted 13 April 2003 05:26 PM
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Wow, this looks really cool. I'm wondering, though, have you considered using this type of body with a conventional changer,legs, etc. Maybe team up with an established builder and use their parts. The mechanical parts of the PSG have been developed pretty well, maybe a combination of your body design in a more familiar package would work, and be easier to market. |
Damir Besic
Member From: La Vergne,TN
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posted 13 April 2003 07:02 PM
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Looks like something out of "Alien" movies,scary look.Wish we can hear it.Can you post a sound clip Sage?------------------
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Drew Howard
Member From: Mason, MI, U.S.A.
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posted 13 April 2003 07:27 PM
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VERY COOL! You are to be commended on your vision of the future...cheers,
Drew ------------------
www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com |
Rich Weiss
Member From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA
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posted 13 April 2003 07:54 PM
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Yes, but what about 3rd string breakage?
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Dennis Olearchik
Member From: Newtown, PA
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posted 14 April 2003 09:58 AM
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Sage,Thanks for giving us the story on this truly unique PSG. I hope that somewhere along the line, you're somehow rewarded for your ideas and efforts. All the best, Dennis p.s. like b0b,I want one too! |
Bill Ford
Member From: Graniteville SC Aiken
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posted 14 April 2003 11:16 AM
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Looooong deeeep sigh!!!!!!!!!
If I was young enough to learn one of them contraptions,I'd love to have one...Tho,I would love to look at/play one,great ideas are where great new products emerge. That is in my opinion a great idea!!!!!!!!
My past work history being mechanics/machine tool work,I would like to see how everything is laid out,keep us posted on playability/reliability.The mp3s sound pretty good... ------------------
Bill Ford |
Chuck S. Lettes
Member From: Denver, Colorado
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posted 14 April 2003 11:21 AM
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Hello Sage,
I enjoyed talking with you at the Dallas Show. Are you coming to the Denver Show at the Grizzly Rose on May 4? I hope that you bring some samples of your work. I look forward to seeing you at the Denver show.
Chuck |
Eddie Malray
Member From: South Fulton, Tennessee, USA
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posted 14 April 2003 06:24 PM
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I just looked at the pictures> If this thing sounds like a steel should, you can throw all openions about wood. aluminum, carbon fiber , mica and everything else thats suppose to make a good steel out the window. If the day comes when I have to play something like that---I'm done. Eddie Malray |
Kenny Davis
Member From: Great State of Oklahoma
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posted 14 April 2003 07:54 PM
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Somebody had better go check on B.S. - He might have had a heart attack after seeing this new guitar!!!Sage - I enjoyed talking with you briefly at Dallas, and I wish you luck on your pedal guitar. |
Sage
Member From: Boulder, Colorado
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posted 15 April 2003 06:48 PM
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Thank you all for the kind words,
Gene, no offense taken. Thank you Frank. I like your reference to iron- I like it too. Titanium is great but very hard to work with and very expensive. Bill Moore, I have considered that very thing and it is a good idea. I haven't figured out a way to do it because I don't want to give up the changer on the left with the tuners on the fingers. With that said, the body of the guitar does have a lot to do with the tone, I know because one of Glenn Taylor's guitars has exactly the same changer and pickup (Lollar, of course) as mine and they sound different. Also, the frame body is not very friendly to standard bell crank design. Damir, I've heard "terminator" used to describe it also. It is more scary than pretty. No sound clips, we'll have to wait for R.R.'s CD (please note that most of it was recorded on Robert's trusty and sturdy Fessenden, which is a great guitar). Thank you Drew, that means a lot to me. Rich I had the ball break off on a 3rd string once, but the problem was a sharp edge where the ball and mounting hole met. It didn't break any strings while on the job, but that doesn't neccecarily say much. And Dennis, I hope so too. Bill Ford, when it comes up again, I'll let you know how it's doing. Chuck, Good to meet you as well. I plan on coming out to the Denver show and I'll bring my guitar. Eddie, I hope you're never done. Kenny, I haven't seen B.S. here yet, but there's always time...
Thanks again!
T. Sage Harmos
Harmos Steel Guitars |
Damir Besic
Member From: La Vergne,TN
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posted 15 April 2003 07:23 PM
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Pete Drake said he wont play something that looks like a kitchen cabinet (mica guitars) I can only imagine what would his coment be on this one ------------------
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Terry Wendt
Member From: Nashville, TN, USA
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posted 15 April 2003 09:26 PM
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Now that's unique!------------------
PedalSteel.us Magazine TheEarlyDays.com and appearing regularly...aLotOfSpace.com
Jimmy Crawford/Russ Hicks... and Buddy Emmons on Bass!
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Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 16 April 2003 11:21 AM
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Very cool Sage! There really is something
cosmic about musical ideas formed near the Flatirons and Sugarloaf. I swear I visualized something like this was going to happen 25 years ago (in an altered state to be sure) when Dusty Drapes bought me a Shobud, a Texas Troubadors record, AND a Weather Report record on the same day...Just so I could learn to play and join their band. The old Boulder hippy in me loves what youre doing! |
Eddie Malray
Member From: South Fulton, Tennessee, USA
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posted 16 April 2003 06:15 PM
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Sage: I hope you did'nt take offense to the remark I made about your new steel design. However, I did go into shock for a spell. I thought I had clicked on Star Wars in stead of the Forum for a minute there. I Hope this new design works out for you. Great things have came about because someone took a new approach. This looks like a physicaly strong guitar. I saw Robert play and it looked to me like he needs a tank. I don't think anyones still could hold up if he plays that way all the time. Heres wishing you and Robert the best.----EDDIE |
Marco Schouten
Member From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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posted 17 April 2003 07:35 AM
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It is definately original. Would love to hear it. I'm surprised that it uses cables, my first impession when I saw the pictures was that is was hydraulic.------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom; Sho-Bud LLG; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Panther amp
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Rusty Walker
Member From: Markham Ont. Canada
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posted 17 April 2003 03:52 PM
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Very unique-but so is R.R.They may compliment each other to no end.I once sat and watched Phil Baugh(hope I spelled it correctly)and P.F.trade psg licks.I still get moist at the thought. |
Sage
Member From: Boulder, Colorado
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posted 22 April 2003 08:57 AM
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Thanks for looking at the guitar and commenting on my efforts. Damir, right you are, I don't have anything in my kitchen that looks like that. Thanks Terry, congrats on your efforts- I still need to get on board. Rick- there is indeed something about this place, and I was finding the Texas Troubadors and Weather Report at about the same time back in the day, and then later on an infusion of Red Knuckles and the Trilblazers and the Cramps. Drop me a line next time you come thru town. Eddie, no offence at all. It is a strong guitar and that was a large design challenge- to make one extra strong and extra light at the same time. I have relied heavily on Ultimate support systems components, which are well engineered to withstand the road as speaker and drum stands. It makes sense to me to use preexisting components that are strong and readily available at music stores around the country (if one breaks) rather than rely on made from scratch parts. Thank you for your good wishes. Marco, That is a reasonable impression. I would like to try one that uses microhydraulics, and it would probably look a lot like this one. I know that hydraulics have been tried before without much success, but I think that a lot of that had to do with the scale of the components used. Pistons that are too large have excessive stiction, which will kill the performance. There are much smaller ones now in common use, and I think it will be worth a try. Finally, I am grateful to all of the giants who have made the traditional PSG into what it is today- both players and builders. Because of them and the great work that they have done, I am free to push the limits of design. That said, I still love the look and sound of traditional steels. Thanks again, everyone.
T. Sage Harmos
Harmos Steel Guitars |
Steven Black
Member From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA
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posted 30 April 2003 12:42 PM
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Hey I would love to play something like that,
that has technology in it. I wonder what one would cost? Steveb. |
Sonny Jenkins
Member From: New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
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posted 30 April 2003 06:42 PM
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This looks like the kind of thing that great innovator Zane Beck would have had to have a piece of. |
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