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Author
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Topic: C6th - G vs: D on Top
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Jim Saunders
Member From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.
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posted 02 August 2003 07:21 PM
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I know there has been prior posts on this subject, but here goes. I've been playing pedal steel now for just over 3 years and I still use the G on top. I'm not a speed picker and I use more chords than single lines. I've noticed on my tabs that the first string is hardly used on C6 chordal arrangements. My question is this; is the advantage of D in the single line picking, such as improvising and speed picking? Would the G be better for chording?
If there is a reason to change, I'll make myself do it. Help from the experts please. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 02 August 2003 10:28 PM
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I have it on my 12 string, but I hardly ever use it. The way I play, most of the action is on the middle strings.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 02 August 2003 10:31 PM
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I opt for the D on top for the following reasons:1. It gives you a D root note for pedal 5. 2. It gives you a 6th/13th note for the F chord on pedal 6. 3. By raising it to an Eb with Pedal 8, it give a nice blues note in various situations. 4. It fills the wide E to C gap and allows rapid scale notes (not necessarily speed picking), without having to move the bar. Items 1 and 2 alone would cause me to keep it. Use it all the time with these 2 pedals. Also, I was never pleased with the tinny sound of that high G note for major chord triads. Better to raise the top C to C# (with a knee lever) and move up 3 frets IMO to get a much better sounding major triad. All in all, once most have tried it, they love it. A few didn't. So in the end, it is what YOU like, May Jesus bless you in your quests, carl |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 03 August 2003 02:07 AM
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Why doesn't anybody put 11 strings on the C6 neck so players can have both? |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 03 August 2003 03:25 AM
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Mike good idea. I have heard of one 11 string player, maybe that's what he has on it.A nice I, C E G on top w/9 and a V with a C3 to B on a P4. And the A minor's d7.
Drop the G to F# and get a nice 6 too. [This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 August 2003 at 03:38 AM.] |
Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 03 August 2003 06:56 AM
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I'm taking my cue from Herby. When he decides to get rid of his high G, so will I.
Erv[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 03 August 2003 at 06:57 AM.] |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 03 August 2003 07:01 AM
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The D string on top gives you additional versatility in your chord and single note playing. The G string gives you additional range at the top. It's a tradeoff as always. Most use the D, but some very well-known players still use a G. With all that being said, how much do YOU use the G note you have right now? I'll bet very little. If that's the case, experiment with the D on top for a couple of months, and then decide. ------------------
Jeff's Jazz
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Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 03 August 2003 07:20 AM
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Oh this is just another can of worms..kinda like the tone argument..Mike , you can't make an 11 string and have em' both cause all the manufacturers would end up with a different tuning anyway..then we would have just another string to argue about.. And although Herby..has a G on top... (Does this equate to Herby with a G string?) I know a few others ( does BE come to mind ? ) who have a D on top..so the argument of who may be right will pretty much never end...as it shouldn't... I personally like the D as it allows some natural room for passing notes with the 2nd and 3rd strings... It really gets down to use either the D or the G to match your style..
or not.. tp |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 03 August 2003 07:57 AM
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I play a Zum D10/11 with an 11-string C6 with a D and G on top. Obviously if you want to play an 11-string, you will probably have to buy a new steel since it'll be like looking for a needle in a haystack to find a used one. Of course, you can always opt for a D-12 as well. As far as whether it's worth having both the D and G on top, you get the best of both worlds. But then you have one weird instrument.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 August 2003 at 08:00 AM.] |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 03 August 2003 08:02 AM
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Gotta go along with Jeff on both his posts. I also have both on my universal. If one plays a U-12 and uses the Jeff Newman setup it is automatic. IE, the second string is lowered to a C# (effective D on a C6 tuning) with the same lever that lowers the E's. I feel this makes this lever toooooo stiff. So I lower the E's by themselves and when I want the C# it is on another knee lever. Works great. carl carl |
Doug Seymour
Member From: Jamestown NY USA
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posted 03 August 2003 08:03 AM
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I'm with Carl on this one.....I never cared for the sound of the G up there. I raise the Cs & get an open A6th with the E (2nd)as the top note. Similar thinking to the F lever on the E9th tuning giving you the C#6th open.
(his first post, I mean. He snuck one in on me)[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 03 August 2003 at 08:05 AM.] |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 04 August 2003 05:55 PM
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Jim, there are great single string patterns laying all over the 1st four strings up and down the neck with the "D" 1st string. If you need the "G" note there is no problem getting it elsewhere up the neck. If you are into Pete Drake C6th then the "D" is not for you. Otherwise, I would suggest you give it a try and if you need some help finding some neat pockets give me an email.
Jerry |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 04 August 2003 08:31 PM
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Another vote for D
I play universal and have both, but if I only had one (and when I did/do play 10 string C6) it would be D with a lever to raise the 3rd string to C# to get the inversion up 3 frets.------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Bobby Snell
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 04 August 2003 08:52 PM
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Using the 5th pedal half-step 1st string raise and the knee dropping the 3d string is interesting, and rocking on and off the pedal will get some nice major/minor stops up the neck. And I couldn't live without the 6&7 pedals together. G for me.
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David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 05 August 2003 02:27 AM
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I have a G on top and use it constantly. The D is an artifice designed by E9th players who got used to having their strings out of order, for speedpicking banjo rolls. I think Buddy Emmons tried it once, got used to it and everyone's been copying him ever since. You won't often see violinists, guitarists, or piano players sticking strings willy-nilly all over their instrument. |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 05 August 2003 03:09 AM
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Willy Nilly all over their Instruments?I think we are talking about 1 string which has earned it's favor...more than earned it's favor I would say... Piano's, Violins, 6 string electrics, do not have the ability to modify tunings or string notes on the fly via knee levers or pedals.. if they did they would be experimenting all over the willy nilly place, just like the Tele' Bender G and B string dudes and dudettes...and lets not forget the Bass players putting the extenders on the key head tuners..I played 4 string Bass for years in a Praise band where many songs would require that the E string be dropped to Eb and the rest of the strings still at A,D and G.. Now theres a tuning for ya! sure a 5 sting would have made life easier ..but what the heck.... Willy Nilly is a great term..sounds like a great Bluegrass Tune ! Willy Nilly rag... All it will take is one more Steeler to experiment with another change that we all gotta have and away we go again .. it's just 1 string..1 note... |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 05 August 2003 06:16 AM
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Yeah, besides, what does Buddy know??  |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 05 August 2003 07:30 AM
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Adding strings is not the point -- musicality is. Most C6 players seem to feel that there are more uses for the D than the G in both single string and chord playing. The steel mfgrs have adopted the D as the standard tuning for D-10s.The analogy to a piano adding strings is interesting. A piano already HAS every string of the chromatic scale. What would they want to add? Johnny Gimble added a string to his violin many years ago, as did Joel Sweeney who added the 5th string to the banjo before the Civil War, not to mention 5- and 6-string basses (oops, I just mentioned them). And Bucky Pizzarelli, John D'Angelico, and others with the 7-string guitar, not to mention Jack West's 8-string monster (oops, there I go again). Whatever the modification, if it improves the musician's ability to express him/herself on an instrument, I'm all for it. I prefer both, but the D clearly makes more sense to me -- more bang to the strang.  And, Tony, I'm surprised at you. Willy Nilly is a Western Swing song. You know, "Willy Nilly, Daddy's littly fatty . . .". ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 05 August 2003 at 07:33 AM.] |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 05 August 2003 09:03 AM
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Larry , HUH ??? I was thinking it might even be Willy Nelsons real name but nobody would listen to his demos under his given name of Willy Nilly...so one day when he was watching Ozzie and Harriet he had a brainstorm and the rest is history. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 05 August 2003 10:12 AM
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I'd like 11 strings just to be able to add a middle D without sacrificing the low C for it.------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
pdl20
Member From: Benton, Ar . USA,
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posted 05 August 2003 11:11 AM
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Heck, i found lots of uses for the d.but what are we supposed to do with that bar thingy ( don't answer that)------------------
Rudy |
Jim Saunders
Member From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.
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posted 05 August 2003 11:53 AM
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Many thanks for the replys. I have dug out that 14 guage string I had stuck in my drawer and I put it on, tuned it to D and I'm trying. I've got to admit, it feels like it does when you break a string and keep trying to play around it. Anyway, I'm making up chord charts with the D and it should help my playing, if anything can. |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 06 August 2003 09:18 AM
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I go along with what Larry Bell and most of the guys say. The high D is more useful musically than the high G.As mentioned, lots of guys get that major triad by moving up three frets and and raising the 3rd string C to C# on a knee lever. However I play E6, so do it a little bit differently.....al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 06 August 2003 09:37 AM
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Jim Saunders- I forgot to mention another alternative. I had a 8/8 Carter , belonged to Junior Knight. He had some nice pulls on the C6 neck. He lowered the 2nd string E to D on a knee lever and kept the G on top that way. And the D was in the proper order yet. Reece used this pull too on his Bb6. AND by dropping the C to B with it, gets the E9 sound of A and B pedals. Not bad....al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 06 August 2003 02:36 PM
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Al,
Thanks for the post! I have a vertical lever on my C6th neck and am going to put that E to D drop on it. Then I will have the best of both worlds!
Erv |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 06 August 2003 05:15 PM
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Erv, you will not have the best of both worlds by dropping s.2 E down to D, since you'll not be able to play a scalar run a la' chromatic strings at the home fret as well as 3 frets up (with the C-C# change). Nor will you have the 13th chord with p.6, nor will you have the higher inversion of the 9th chord with p.5. But you will have s.2 lowered to D, if you want to use the licks Jr. and Reece do with that change.------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 07 August 2003 12:42 AM
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I have the G on top, with LKL lowering my lower G to F, LKL lowering E to D and RKR lowering my A's to Ab's. LKR and RKL gives you a G9th. LKL, RKR and 5 and 6 give you a full Ab open (C at the 4th fret). 6, 7 and RKR gives you a Bb6th. Everything you try has tradeoffs, that's all. |
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