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Author
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Topic: That "transparent" Sho-Bud sound
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Nathan Delacretaz
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 18 September 2003 07:35 AM
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I wonder if you guys know what I'm talking about - it sounds "transparent" or not as dense as the typical steel sound...it happens at the very end of "Hogan's Dream" (#10 on Lloyd Green's new CD, where he cuts all the reverb) and Marty Muse gets it on "All the Rage in Paris" by the Derailers...All I know is that these gentlemen use Sho-Bud guitars. Is it a technique? Wood necks? Am I off my rocker? |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 18 September 2003 11:36 AM
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Most likely it's the overtones inharent at the 12th fret....I don't know what key those songs are in off hand...but if it is played at the 12th fret that your talking about....than..there are those chorusing sounding overtones you get at the halfway part of your scale...when the hand does not dampin' the strings behind the bar..
Ricky |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 18 September 2003 12:08 PM
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I don't have the Derailer's tune, but to me the ending of "Hogan's Dream" just sounds like pure Steel Guitar in the hands of a master.I don't hear chorusing effect the Ricky mentioned in that lick. Just pure Steel. I wonder if it would sound the same played by Lloyd on his JCH. |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 18 September 2003 12:25 PM
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Nathan, you are someone with ears. Thats exactly why I play a restored Sho-Bud Professional. Thats the same tone that you are describing that I hear.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 18 September 2003 at 12:25 PM.] |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 18 September 2003 12:54 PM
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I think Buddy Emmons had the sound on "Rose City Chimes" on the Ernest Tubb Midnight Jamboree album. Also the entire "Night Life" Ray Price album.Also Lloyd Green's fingertip on some of the Johnny Paycheck records. My fingertip has that transparency, and I've heard it with Ricky Davis' Pro-II played through the Twin w/15 JBL. ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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Nathan Delacretaz
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 18 September 2003 01:32 PM
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Yeah, Herb - that sound quality is on Night Life too. I gotta go listen to that one tonight!Thanks for the input, guys - because I only hear it in certain passages, I was wondering if certain instruments make that sound in certain ranges of the fretboard (certainly possible)... or if it could be a coil-tapped pickup, a right hand attack modification...dunno... |
Bill Crook
Member From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance
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posted 18 September 2003 01:48 PM
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The effect we hear at the 12the fret is a natural sound offered by any and all guitars. It isn't the axe but a natural tendency of any stringed insturment plucked at the ½ way point of it's length. Check this out on your 6 string guitar. Same thing, right..... Now this effect can be used at several places on the pedal steel,only that one must be careful to be at the exact point on the fretboard.1) Place the bar at the 12th fret,pluck or strum the strings on the "left" side of the bar. the sound is a very rich "corus" and even "reverb" sound put together. This effect isn't used much due to it's extreamly exactly positioning demands,because if not nailed true to point,it is a real train-wreck. Bill |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 18 September 2003 03:15 PM
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For an excellent example of this "behind the bar" technique listen to Jim Cohen's ending of "Taras Theme" on his "Finally Here" CD.He resolves from a B sus into an E Maj at the 7th fret strumming behind the bar. Sorta like chorused chimes, a very "Acceptable Tone".  |
Nathan Delacretaz
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 19 September 2003 07:00 AM
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Nah, fellas - it's not the behind the bar harmonics/overtones I'm thinking of (but thanks for pointing out *yet another* thing I need to learn how to do! ha ha)... Kevin and Herb latched onto the idea - it's a beautiful, glassy sound quality that pops out now and then...just seemed to occur on older records and/or older wood-necked instruments. |
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 19 September 2003 07:50 AM
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The problem with word descriptions of sounds again rears its ugly head.
I believe I know what you are talking about and although I don't know what pickup Mr. Green currently uses in his Sho-Bud, I have always associated that 'transparent' sound with older--perhaps relatively underwound--pickups. With the reduction in impedance or is it inductance, whatever, comes a thinning out of the blooming mids that I associate with the high powered humbuckers of modern times.
No--I am not ignoring or discounting the inherent great sound of Sho-Buds and I'm surely not discounting the great touch of such a master but when I hear Lloyd or I hear Night Life era Buddy it's the lower output pickups that catch my attention as a major element of this particular sound.
As a side note--Bill Lawrence's IQ-1200 which he told me he likes to think of as a 'time machine,' rolls back a humbucking pickup to similar aural qualities and, I presume, similar technical characteristics. Turning the knob--that's the hard part. Sounding like the masters--piece of cake.......in my dreams. |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 19 September 2003 07:56 AM
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Nathan,
Here's the answer by a guy that was there. quote:
"The tone on the end of "Hogan's Dream", which I wrote was achieved by me asking Russ Pahl to turn all reverb off for the a capella part. I wanted to get an intimate feeling for the end of our CD which would draw the listener right into the seat next to me. I thought it would be an appropriate way to draw the curtain on the music. The only sounds heard are me playing my Sho-Bud through my Hot-Rod Fender and with Russ's D-130 JBL speaker. Nothing else. What you hear is me playing the way I play and the steel sounding as natural as possible. If you hear other nuances, that's good! Everyone should hear something that gets their attention and curiosity. If that happened I accomplished my purpose." - Lloyd Green
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Rick Collins
Member From: Claremont , CA USA
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posted 19 September 2003 08:58 AM
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Yes, "transparent" is a good descriptive metaphor for this sound of the Sho-Bud. Those who have the "ear" for it, will know what Nathan is talking about.Rick |
Jack Anderson
Member From: Scarborough, ME
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posted 19 September 2003 09:02 AM
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Guess I should have asked this question here (it took me too long to learn how to reference another thread!).[This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 19 September 2003 at 09:04 AM.] |
Nathan Delacretaz
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 19 September 2003 09:34 AM
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Wow, Joey - thanks for posting Lloyd's comments!! And thanks to Lloyd for his input! Glad my question has elicited some fun and informative discussion. Another cool forum moment - you guys kill me every time!Kevin and Rick - thanks for affirming that my ears aren't playing tricks on me (yet)... And yeah Jon, trying to describe music/tone in words is - as Zappa said - like "dancing about architecture"! I know words will never cut the mustard.
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Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 19 September 2003 11:11 AM
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Jon; Lloyd has a Bill Lawrence 710 in his LDG.
Nathan; Ok I get what you were originally asking about and THAT sound.
Have ya found it yet??? ha...LOL.
Ricky |
Nathan Delacretaz
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 19 September 2003 11:44 AM
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Ricky: no, bud - my Mullen and I are still looking for that sound (and all the others for that matter)... But as I got told once - if you wanna get good at finding, you have to practice searching! |
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 19 September 2003 12:13 PM
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Well, since I reckon that the BL 710 qualifies as a high powered humbucker of modern times then I probably qualify as just another bozo running off at the mouth. Oh well. Thanks Ricky, thanks Joey, and especially, thanks Lloyd! |
erik
Member From:
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posted 19 December 2003 06:10 PM
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I too heard that sound at the end of the CD and also fealt it portrayed a feeling of intimacy. You can hear a lot of natural string sounds on the Jimmy Day Steel And Strings CD. I think it adds some tension and helps you appreciate how much work is going on with the instrument. |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 19 December 2003 06:37 PM
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quote:
I have always associated that 'transparent' sound with older--perhaps relatively underwound--pickups.
BINGO! Yes, that "old sound" that some players crave is nothing but old, low impedance (single-coil) pickups, along with tube amps. Great, wasn't it? Buddy Charleton had that sound on most all his old stuff, and the old Sho~Bud certainly helped him get it. Many players go batty trying to re-create this sound with all the latest gizmos, from pedals, to S/S amps, modeling units, processors, special pickups, matching devices, etc.. That's like trying to make a knife and fork out of a Cuisinart! Look, if you long for that simple, clear, old '60s sound...take the simple route, and use simple old equipment.  |
Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 19 December 2003 08:11 PM
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Just my opinion, but I think Lloyd Green could take a 2x4 and put Barbed Wire on it for strings and still sound great, what a master of tone and of just great thoughts that go into his playing.
Gene |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 20 December 2003 02:03 AM
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I sure like the 16k JW rewinds on my SB.
I think I'll go for even less windings on the Professional when I do it.Danny Shields wound me a couple that had even less windings but they wore out about 10 years ago. Seems like "less is more" in this case. EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 20 December 2003 at 02:39 AM.] |
Brian Herder
Member From: Philadelphia, Pa. USA
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posted 20 December 2003 06:57 AM
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My favorite part on that disc. The tune ends and all of a sudden it's like L.G. is sitting in the same room playing..awesome. I'd say it's a more resonant, airy tone...very 3D, as opposed to the more focussed, flat pinpoint kind of thing. Sort of like comparing a 50's Strat through a tweed Fender, and an 80s Strat with Lace Sensors...through a solid state amp. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 20 December 2003 08:54 AM
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Also consider that the L-710 pickup is a unique design. It's a very hot, high-output pickup, but for some reason it has a very clear and bright top end. Often times an overwound humbucker will get thick in the mids and lose the top end a bit. Not the L-710, it's very bright on top. So bright that people (like Bill Lawrence) say it's best used with a passive, pot-type pedal. It seems to be the perfect pickup for Lloyds Sho-Bud as it gets a big and fat yet delicate and sweet sound. Old underwound pickups had lots of sweet top end but lacked the beef. It's a new and spectacular tone for our Mr. Nashville Sound. Also the issue of removing the reverb for the sake of intimacy as demonstrated at the end of "Hogan's Dream". I was taught years ago that reverb should be considered primarily for controlling the illusion of distance. The wetter the farther away, and the dryer the nearer. Very tasteful use of this by Mr. Green and Mr. Pahl. Brad Sarno |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 20 December 2003 10:44 AM
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Brad, thats exactly why I have BL-710's in my Marrs/Surratt Custom Shop restored Professional. Crystal clear through the highs, the mids, and the bass. Perfect combination with the Sho-Bud. Eric, I am hearing that the Wallace True Tones sound very similar to the BL-710's in a Sho-Bud. Just slightly more of the single coil edge. Finally someone has ears. |
Bill Terry
Member From: Bastrop, TX, USA
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posted 20 December 2003 11:40 AM
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quote:
Seems like "less is more" in this case.
quote:
..if you long for that simple, clear, old '60s sound...take the simple route, and use simple old equipment.
I would agree Eric and Donny. My '67 P/P has the stock Emmons PUs at about 14.5K. I really think I like the sound of the lighter wound single coils better. Back to the topic of this thread, there seems to be a transparency to the sound that I've never been able to get before. Since I got this guitar and a '76 Session 400, I retired all the digital processors. The guitar -> vol pedal -> amp sound I've got right now is the first rig I've ever had that has basically cured all G.A.S.
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Tyler Macy
Member From: San Diego, CA, USA
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posted 21 December 2003 11:28 AM
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I'd just like to add that I am very much a beginner on steel. I haven't been playing long (couple years), my knowledge of the instrument/technique/tone all stink.That said, I play a Pro III Shobud through a JBL-loaded Twin, and I can get that "transparent" sound with ease. I strongly agree that it is a function of underwound pickup into tube amp. Tube amps have a special way of reproducing (or perhaps producing) those real high chimey sparkly overtones. And in general, weak pickups are needed to get a bright, mid-scooped sound. Humbuckers or hot singles are usually too thick, middy, and dark to get that mooney/brumley/lloyd sparkle. My 2 cents. [This message was edited by Tyler Macy on 21 December 2003 at 12:30 PM.]
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Nathan Delacretaz
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 21 December 2003 03:32 PM
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Tyler - thanks to you and the others for breaking it down for me... I am also a newbie (started PSG in May 2002) and am just beginning to scratch the surface of all the great things the PSG can do... I am a devotee of Fender tube amps (mine is a Deville 212), but I play a very contemporary-sounding Mullen SD10...though I'm told that the Mullen pickup is based on the older single-coil designs..? My inability to stumble onto that glassy, transparent sound led me to believe it was somehting to do with the older, wood-necked instruments...I guess I was in the ballpark, eh? |
Tyler Macy
Member From: San Diego, CA, USA
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posted 21 December 2003 04:10 PM
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Yes, but my Shobud is metal necked (and a newer one at that) but is still all Shobud in tone. The pickups are about 17Kohms. A twin with the bright switch "on" will make a big difference, ESPECIALLY with JBLs. |
Rob Hamilton
Member From: Concord, MA, USA
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posted 21 December 2003 06:26 PM
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Another factor I've found that influences the tone is the distance between the changer and the picking hand. Sometimes I'll move my right hand away from the changer, up and into to the fret board, so I'm picking around frets 15-17. I don't know whether this is what Lloyd did on Hogan's dream, but it sounds kinda like that to me.--Rob
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Sho-Bud Pro-I, '62 Fender Vibrolux |
Chris Scruggs
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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posted 21 December 2003 10:09 PM
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True. I believe the best tone you get is when you play exactly half way up your scale. So if you are playing on the 12th fret, pick on the 24th, or if you are picking on the 5th fret, pick over the 17th fret. If gives you a warm "bounce" that you don't get otherwise. But on the other hand, I love the sound of my 1958 Fender 400 when I lightly palm mute, and pick right at the bridge. It gives that mean early Jimmy Day tone you hear on so many old shuffles. |
Nathan Delacretaz
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 22 December 2003 07:59 AM
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Rob & Chris - yeah, that was one of my original thoughts - that you could exaggerate that tone/texture by modifying the right hand attack. I'll try those things...Thanks for the feedback! |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 22 December 2003 12:39 PM
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It seems to me that a lot of the sound you're describing is the "scooped" frequency response of the JBL speaker. The aluminum dome gives those speakers a unique sound, which is a large part of what I notice about the tone of that Lloyd Green track.
I used JBL speakers for many years. It was easier to get that "transparent" sound than it was to get rid of it when I didn't want it!------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 19 August 2005 11:46 AM
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Nathan... The sound you described in words is what I have in my head as the ideal steel sound... I believe there are 4 parts to the equation, and they were all hit upon at one time or another in this thread... I will list them in order of importance as I see it [[for whatever THAT is worth!}1...LIGHTLY wound pickups as used on most older steel guitars.. It would be tough to get that "transparency" out of todays 22K electromagnetic dynamos 2.. Tube amps.. including the preamp! 3 JBL speakers ..D 130.... They are the voice of vintage steel tone 4.. wood neck.. however I think this is the LEAST important part of the equation... Take it with a grain of salt, but thats what I think .... bob |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 19 August 2005 12:52 PM
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Yes. What you search for is that "scooped" Sho~Bud sound! It's easy to get with a tube amp, light-wound single coil pickups, and an amp capable of a big mid-range scoop. The only difference between that sound, and the old "Emmons" sound, is a little fatter bottom and top end, as well. Emmons guitars were flatter in response, probably due to the necks and smaller cabinets. They just don't possess the "body" (sound, not cabinet) of those big ol' Buds!Modern stuff will get you close if you use a good equalizer, but the dynamics still aren't there if you use humbuckers, I don't care who makes 'em! |
Larry Robbins
Member From: Fort Edward, New York, USA
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posted 19 August 2005 01:10 PM
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Yup,
I think you can come close with this and that but, when its all said and done...you gotta start with one of them old Buds, if you want that old Bud sound!( simple aint it) ------------------
73 PRO II, 79/80 PRO III
Steelkings,Fender guitars,Preston covers,
and Taylor(Tut that is)
Reso's
"Of all the things Ive lost in life, I miss my mind the most"
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