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Author
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Topic: How do you tune your guitar?
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Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 13 December 2003 10:09 AM
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I dig your position Richard....but I have found that two guitars "out of tune together" sound less bad than one "out" and one "in".  ......give me an "E open chord"!..... www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 13 December 2003 at 10:19 AM.] |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 13 December 2003 12:17 PM
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Eric, assuming your question is directed at what I said, if you tune to open E at the nut, then your pedals-down A chord (assuming you have tuned your A and B pedal strings to the E strings) will be flat by the ammount of your cabinet drop, as Ricky pointed out above. That is usually only a few cents. When you play with the bar up the neck, that difference is practically imperceptible visually, and would seem to be well within our motor and visual error in placing the bar directly over the fret (parallax, etc.). I think most players only use the frets as guides to get in the vicinity, and they adjust to suit their ear, and that would automatically take care of that small cabinet drop difference everywhere but at the nut. So I see this cabinet drop problem as forcing one to decide whether they play at the nut more with the pedals up or down (or whether you prefer your error at the nut to be sharp or flat, as Ricky also pointed out). Everywhere else, your ear should take care of it automatically.This is an empirical question. To test it, slide up or down to a particular fret (not the nut) several times without picking the string or listening to it and check each time with the meter. This will indicate your visual error range. Then do the same thing picking and listening. That will indicate your ear's error range. My bet is that your visual error range is the greatest, and is bigger than the cabinet drop range. And I'll also wager your ear error range is about the same with the pedals up or down, and the cabinet drop difference at the nut is not added on to your normal ear error range. Also, both your eye and ear error range will get worse as you get higher on the neck and the frets are closer together (unless you are John Hughey). Man this is gettin' pretty nerdy, ain't it?  |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 13 December 2003 01:01 PM
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I know Dave..Right now I'm not having ANY problem finding reasons not to plug in my guitar after watching that Emmons/Rugg vid I borrowed from a friend.... Today I'll just say that I haven't figured whether I'm using "just intonation" at the 5th fret, or a "tempered" fret position.. DAMN what A video! Those guys even in their 50s can STILL make it happen! Also great was the "Summit" Vid with Lloyd, Hal, Jimmy C, and Weldon. That one's a little older but I got a better insight into "the way things came about". Actually after I plug in in a minute or two I'm gonna spend a day or so over at Ricky's Intro page. EJL |
Frank Harris
Member From: San Diego, California, USA
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posted 29 December 2003 02:46 PM
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just play your steel with a cd by george s or joe diffie and you will see why jeff newmans way is the best he knows believe me go to his webb site and get the info on tunning steel this is the last word and truth on subject. |
Frank Harris
Member From: San Diego, California, USA
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posted 29 December 2003 02:48 PM
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use jeffs tunning and play with a cd by george s and you will see why jeffs way is the way to go |
Michael Johnstone
Member From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
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posted 29 December 2003 04:55 PM
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I've chased my tail around the E9 neck for years trying to get rid of the beats etc only to have them stack up at the F# strings blah,blah,blah. But all that changed last year when I got my U-12 Excel with the anti-detuning gadget.It's essentially a great big compensator that works across the whole keyless tuning block and effectivly zeros out all cabinet drop by sharping the whole neck microscopically by variable amounts according to which
pedal(s) you engage.So all this pre-emtive sharping your E strings and all that is history.I also have seperate compensators on my F# strings so THAT problem is addressed.Then I sat down for 2 days and fine tuned my guitar back and forth,up and down till I was satisfied it was as in tune as it could ever be and wrote down all my offsets and programmed them into my Peterson tuner - then I tested it on gigs and tweaked my offsets some more.Finally now I'm very,very close to beatless JI throughout my strings and changes.Yeah - I still have to play my A+F and a couple other combinations sharp to the fret but I've been doing that all my life and it's a small price to pay for the heretofore unattainable: real practical,across-the-board JI without grossly out of tune,unplayable combinations here and there. Plus,w/the Peterson I can tune silently in a noisy honky-tonk - now if I could just learn to play..... -MJ- |
Dave O'Brien
Member From: Okeechobee, FL USA
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posted 29 December 2003 04:59 PM
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I play along with my favoite records or CD's and touch up the guitar as need. When I compare with the Emmons chart it's real close!
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William Steward
Member From: Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands
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posted 30 December 2003 07:42 PM
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I am a relative newbie to the steel but not to tuning (I have tuned my own Rhodes electric and acoustic grand pianos for some time)and I have struggled with the tuning on my Mullen D-10 guitar. The 'cabinet drop' is very noticable and a major inversion at the A-F position sounded particularly sour with some of the tuning 'formulas' I have tried thus far. As someone pointed out it is difficult if not impossible to tune by ear on stage unless you are to show up in the middle of the afternoon in an empty nightclub after leaving the instrument in the air conditioning for several hours to cool down...playing outside in warm weather is even wose. Herby Wallace's tempered formula seems to work for my ears as a guideline in a situation that doesn't allow the luxury of tuning by ear:
1. 0
2. -14 (K3 -16)
3. -14 (A -10)
4. 0 (C -18) (K1 -14) (K2 -23)
5. +2 (A -16)(C -16)
6. -14 (B -10)
7. -18
8. 0 (K1 -14) (K2 -23)
9. -7
10. +2 (A -16)
Fairly standard Emmons pedal setup:
Pedal A - 5,10(+C#)
Pedal B - 3,6 (+A)
Pedal C - 4(+F#),5 (+C#)
K1 - 4,8 (-Eb)
K2 - 4,8 (+F)
K3 - 2 (-C#)As for the C6 neck I am still experimenting with how far to flatten the E and A notes. I know there have been endless discussions about this subject and it is a matter of taste, etc etc. I play piano as well so when I am playing steel in my band I do not have the problem of trying to blend with a piano however I do know that if an acoustic piano were tuned to ET it would sound awful. For me so far I agree with Dave Dogett about tuning to A in the open position...the sweet single note is always only a fraction of an inch away but it is the chord inversions that I had trouble getting to sound nice further up the neck (thanks Herby). I would be interested to know the built-in program values from someone who owns a Peterson VS-2 or V-Sam tuner. I will also experiment with some of the other ideas presented but it may not be an accident that Herby probably based his tuning on a Mullen and it sounds well on my guitar. Herby - if you ever drop in to these discussions please comment?
[This message was edited by William Steward on 30 December 2003 at 07:43 PM.] |
Tiny Olson
Member From: Tribes Hill, NY, USA along the Erie Canal in the beautiful Mohawk River Valley
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posted 31 December 2003 11:53 AM
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I strongly agree with the method as mentioned by Ricky Davis and use this myself.BTW Ricky, our buddy Red Kilby sent me a copy of the tape you guys made at the Fulawka Room at the convention. Looked like fun and you sounded great. Chris "Tiny" Olson |
Bob Cox
Member From: Portsmouth,Ohio USA
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posted 04 January 2004 08:29 AM
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Srike horseshoe ring with finger pic tune e string to sync vibration. |
Franklin
Member From:
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posted 04 January 2004 08:51 AM
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The reason I tune my E's to 442 has nothing to do with cabinet drop. Piano's are stretched tuned. The middle A is 440. The next octave up is tuned to 882 or sharper, depending on the piano tuner, and it keeps graduating up each octave. The bass player would be sharp to the pianos bass notes if he tuned to the middle A. Bass players have seperate tuners for this reason. The open strings of the steel are in the range of the 882 octave, which is 441 on the standard guitar tuner. Since the E note is a fifth above that I have found that 442 keeps all of the open strings in tune with the track......Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 04 January 2004 at 08:54 AM.] |
David Deratany
Member From: Cape Cod Massachusetts
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posted 04 January 2004 08:58 AM
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Franklin,A friend and I just last evening were discussing the phenomenon of the ear hearing higher frequencies increasingly flat, and that some instruments allow for it. Is this what you are talking about? Do you know if it is so for all pianos, including electric keyboards? |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 04 January 2004 10:02 AM
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Paul's accomodation for the stretch tuning of keyboards is right on. We hadn't even thought about that. So there's a real tip from a real pro. Thank's PF. |
Franklin
Member From:
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posted 04 January 2004 12:23 PM
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David....Tuning this way is not to accomodate for the fact that some folks tend to hear things flat. I tune this way to get my open strings in tune with the piano and the band on records.Yes, all keyboards are tuned this way. If they were not, the keyboard section on a record would sound out when keyboard parts are stacked. They always sound right to me. I was taught that it is very important for every instrument to tune to the octave of the piano that is closest to the open tuning of their chosen instrument. I should clarify that I only tune the E note to 442. The rest I tune by ear to JI. Paul |
Allan Thompson
Member From: Scotland.
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posted 04 January 2004 12:47 PM
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Paul,
Do you tune the E`s to 442 with pedals up or down ? |
Franklin
Member From:
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posted 04 January 2004 01:18 PM
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Alan,My pedals are up. Paul |
Roger Edgington
Member From: San Antonio, Texas USA
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posted 04 January 2004 02:16 PM
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I switched to the Jeff Newman method a few years ago and it seems to work well for me. It seems to me individual technique and the chords you play and where you play them make some difference. Steel guitar is kind of unique in the fact we can play a simple triad in so many different positions. It's hard to make them sound identical. Then you have to factor in mechanical differences in guitars.More difficult than tuning is trying to hold it there. In Texas we often come in from a real hot car to a cold room that gradually warms back up as it fills up. All our instrauments change to temp. at different rates. On top of that we have fretless bass, fidde and steel. Even the heat from your hands change it in a cold room. You can watch it on a tuner. I also think the brightness of tone and effects used changes the way our ear accepts notes. We play a very complex instraument and we each have to deal with it to fit our own needs |
David Deratany
Member From: Cape Cod Massachusetts
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posted 04 January 2004 06:58 PM
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Thanks, Paul. I understand what you say about why you tune E to 442, but don't yet understand why they stretch tune keyboards, if not for the hearing perception I mentioned. |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 04 January 2004 11:40 PM
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“How do you tune your guitar”?
Don't you just turn them little pegs (or whatever) on the left end, when you're sitting behind it? “BJ” ------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels
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Joe Drivdahl
Member From: Glendive, Montana, USA
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posted 05 January 2004 12:45 AM
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What is that note between A and A-flat anyway? Sometimes, it sounds okay, but for some reason, I can't find it on my six-string.jd |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 05 January 2004 07:35 AM
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It occurred to me that one way to deal with the pedals up or down question would be to simply split the difference. Cabinet drop is usually only a few cents. You can't hear a difference of less than 2 cents (about 1 hz around 440 I think). So you could tune your Es straight up 440. Then engage your pedals and see where your Es are now. Say you discover they are now at 437, because of cabinet drop. Then, with the pedals up, tune them to 441.5. Now with the pedals down,they should be at 438.5. Now you are less than 2 hz away from 440 either with the pedals up or down. This would seem to be a better compromise than being right on 440 one way and 3 hz off the other way. And if you are concerned about matching the piano "stretch," as Paul pointed out, that should be added on. So you would tune with the pedals up to 443.5, and with the pedals down you would be at 440.5. Again, you are within 1.5 hz of your target of 442, whether your pedals are up or down. And remember, these fine points will only affect your intonation when playing open at the nut without the bar. Once you are fretting with the bar, it seems to me that you will be matching by ear to the rest of the band, or whatever tracks you are playing to in the studio, and that will overide these minor differences. |
Tom Diemer
Member From: Defiance, Ohio USA
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posted 05 January 2004 04:37 PM
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Mr. Franklin,I know you said you JI tune other than the E, but do you happen to know if your pedals down A notes are sharp of A-440 also? I've been using Ricky's method with great success, but I wonder if the A's should also be a tad sharp to match the piano octave. Thank you so much for posting here Paul. Tom |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 05 January 2004 11:29 PM
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On the serious side, (for a change) I tuned my Steel E-442Hz to play a job one night, but; for some reason it didn't work for me at all. We had Bass, Lead, and Drums, and my steel sounded out of tune (pitch) with the band all night! It was not a good scene at all, and I still haven't figured out why! The closest explaination I can think of is that possibly the Bass 'was' out of tune. Regardless of who's out of tune, it seems as though it always sounds like it is the steel! “BJ”------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels
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Leslie Ehrlich
Member From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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posted 06 January 2004 02:44 AM
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With great difficulty. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 06 January 2004 06:52 AM
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John your experience raises some questions. PF tunes to 442 to match the "stretching" that piano tuners do for keyboards in the upper octaves. I don't know exactly which upper octaves they stretch, but PF apparently does this because that is the stretch in the piano octaves where pedal steel mostly plays. If your group has no keyboard, only guitars, then it would seem that you would be better off tuning to whatever the guitars tune to. That's what raises the questions I now have. I don't think guitar tuners are stretched at all, are they? Do steels really play that much higher than regular guitars? Probably so in a lot of country music. PF's the one with the experience on that. But are guitar frets stretched up high on the neck? Do they match the piano stretch okay when playing with keyboards? Now what about bass players (which are the ones the whole group probably keys on most)? I think someone on another post mentioned that tuners specially made for bass are compressed to match the compression in the lower octaves of keyboards. But do all bass players have these special tuners? So, John, matching the stretch by tuning to 442 may not have worked for you because no one else in the group was doing any stretching or compressing, and you had no keyboards. Paul was talking about laying tracks in a studio that match keyboards. Playing in an all guitar group may be different.Tom, Paul may jump in here and speak for himself, but my impression is that the Es and As you are tuning are in the same octave, so if you sharp the Es to 442, then you would do the same for the As. As far as cabinet drop, Paul plays a Franklin, and they have a reputation for having very little cabinet drop, so maybe this is not much of an issue for him, and if he sharps his Es and tunes the As to that, they will be sharp also, minus whatever cabinet drop there is. |
Tom Diemer
Member From: Defiance, Ohio USA
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posted 06 January 2004 04:11 PM
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David, thanks for the reply. That's what I was wondering about. If he still is approx. 2 cents sharp on a pedals down A. I don't think I get 2 cents cabinet drop, would have to check it on my peterson to be sure.I have never gotten my guitar to sound really in tune to my ear, until I saw Ricky's method. Now I tune the A's first, tune the E's to that, then use that reference E to tune the rest. Finally it sounds in tune. I used to compensate with the bar, but not any more. I do bar a little sharp on A+F chords, but not much. It makes sense though, that you wouldn't want to do that if there is no piano, and the other guitars are tuned straight up on a tuner. I'm kinda new to all this yet, still working out the kinks. I appreciate the reply David.
I would be curious if anyone has any secrets to tuning C6 similar to this. I've been tuning the C's to 440, then ear tuning the rest. Then check it against a 3rd fret C on the E neck (even though the C on that neck isn't 440), if it sounds good that way, it usually works with other instruments. Now getting the pedals to sound right is another story on C6.
Tom
[This message was edited by Tom Diemer on 06 January 2004 at 04:13 PM.]
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Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 06 January 2004 06:46 PM
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WEll My all time players that always sound Dead on In Tune to my ears ALL THE TIME is Lloyd Green; Paul Franklin and Tommy White.
Everything they play live and have recorded, just sounds so perfectly in tune to me, and all three tune to a different reference Open E. Paul makes a wonderful point of the stretched piano tuning...and is usually the starting point for all studio members to tune to. I've recorded quite a bit with Floyd Domino; who Paul Franklin has recorded quite a bit with also on the George Strait projects and others.
One day in the studio as we're getting set up; Floyd comes up to me and says/asked: "Ricky this Keyboard I'm using has a preference of using a Tempered tuning or Equal Tempered tuning; which do you prefer?" He asked me that, as he was going to be laying down with the basics that the Bass and backup guitars would tune to and didn't want to exclude me from the tuning preference. I told him....whatever sounds right to you Floyd. I've also recorded many times with Earl Poolball using a live piano....and of course Floyd uses one also; but my point/question being> Paul if your still reading on this thread...: "has this preference been asked of you in the studio?" I guess also I may add...that I do tune my steel to the method that I've posted...>but play in tune or try to; with the tracks at what ever register they may be...especially with the now different piano tuning techniques..
The answer is what I mention towards the bottom of my writings on this subject and I do A LOT of work with a single fixed tone; to work on proper intonation and I believe that is the key to playing these things in tune as there are extream subtle adjustments you will make with your bar in all barred positions to match the intonation of what ever your playing to; and if you don't have the reference in your head from this kind of practice; than you won't have the quick motor skills to adjust to proper intonation without even noticing it.
Ricky |
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