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Author
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Topic: Tuning head nuts stripping on Le Grand
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Jim Bates
Member From: Alvin, Texas, USA
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posted 19 January 2004 01:45 PM
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I have a '93 Emmons Le grand with the small tuning heads. Most of the tuning head nuts have stripped so that I have had to remove the washer in order to get enough thread for the nut to tighten. What's the best fix for this? Thanx,
Jim |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 19 January 2004 10:38 PM
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Well that is a problem as the Washer is too thick...so the nut is only able to get one or two turns on the threads inside; in the first place..than over the years or even months of pulling and changing strings....the nut will slip off the treads or not grab anymore(stripped). And so if you take the washer off then there may not even be enough threads on the shaft inside in the first place; for the nut to go on far enough to even hold the tuner in the headstock hole..ah..ha....soooo....here's some ideas as I've done all them and haven't decided which I like better.hha.
You can get a "thinner" washer....>so the same size hole and outside diameter...but "Thinner" and you may get more turns on the nut. Or you can get some "Loctite" Two part Epoxy and put it on the outside of the nut threads and send'r on in and turn it the one or two times...and leave it overnight and it will never move/loosen again....ha..
Or you can send off for some new ones...and you'll get your one or two turns on it with the washer and it will hold....about as long as the one you pulled off in the first place.
Good luck.
Ricky |
chas smith
Member From: Encino, CA, USA
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posted 19 January 2004 11:15 PM
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Good rule of thumb regarding nuts and bolts is the nut has to grab at least 3 full threads, at the minimum, to be on. |
Chris Schlotzhauer
Member From: Colleyville, Tx. USA
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posted 20 January 2004 05:56 AM
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What Ricky said. The Emmons headstock/tuners issue has always been a pain. I have to just remove the washer and be done with it. This will cause the plating on the inside of the tuner head which unsightly. It's a good idea to have a few spares, both bass and treble. I've had the head fall apart when the threads work loose. The strings you wind quickly with a winder, such as the 3rd when your changing it before your solo comes up, usually wear out pretty fast. Emmons carries the Grovers and Sperzels. I like the Sperzels. They ship them out quick too. Good luck. |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 20 January 2004 08:02 AM
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Ron Sr and I discussed this at length at Emmons in '97. He told me that he got soooooo frustrated with key manufacturers, He finally sent them a scaled drawing of what he wanted; since he could NOT get them to understand what he needed.The problem centers around the fact that keys were made for regular guitar and mandolin stock heads; and NO thought has been given to steel guitar head for many years. So we have a pidgepodge of usually less than satisfactory keys when it comes to a PSG. Because there are 10 strings, the amount of material that a key goes thru needs to be quite narrow. So the problems you folks describe make it difficult to find a key that is really satisfactory. This is particularly true of string 1 and 10 on both necks. IE, the thickness of the head on these two strings is even thinner (on an Emmons). Incidently, this is not the only problem with them when used in a PSG. I have always felt the turns ratio is incorrect. Another problem which is often overlooked; the keys make contact with the case and this can damage them. Some cases are designed to lift the guitar up so the keys are protected. But all too many are not. carl
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Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 20 January 2004 02:39 PM
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I Found The Perfect Fix!!!!
Ok I found this perfect thickness brass washer in the "plumbing" section of your local hardware store; in the o-ring/washers for the plumbing fixtures area..ha.
As I discussed in my above post; is that the washer that comes with the tuner is too thick to get 3 or 4 good turns on the nut to the inside of the tuner shaft.
The washer above is pretty dang thin; but is the same outside diameter(9/16") of the original washer...but now it lets the nut get several good turns on the shaft and that's all you need for it to tighten and hold super good. When you don't have a washer...than the nut may screw all the way and still not snug against the headstock....but the orginal washer just won't let you get enough turns.....>so I like this fix the best and the cool gold/brass looking washer looks great in there.
Have fun.
Ricky
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Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 20 January 2004 03:05 PM
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I had this same problem with my Mullen. I finally took off the washers and tightened everything down nice and snug.This really chapped me, 'cause I've always been a firm believer that there should always be a washer under a nut. That's just the way I was raised! I'll have to try Ricky's advice and see if our local "True Value" hardware store has some really thin washers. ------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande |
Scott Denniston
Member From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA
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posted 20 January 2004 08:10 PM
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I know I'm new here but what do these things (tuning heads) cost? If you like the guitar, why not replace them? Things wear out. |
Wayne Baker
Member From: Vacaville California
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posted 20 January 2004 08:22 PM
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Jim, check your email. I had the same problem, same model, same year. The tuners keys are junk. Bought Sperzals. Problem solved.
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Thanks,
Wayne Baker Emmons Legrande d-10, w/8&5, Emmons S10 p/p
w/3&4 Nashville 400, Boss DD3.
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Jack Strayhorn
Member From: Winston-Salem, NC
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posted 20 January 2004 08:47 PM
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In the mid 80's Ron had the Sperzel Co. in Germany design tuners for Emmons keyhead. After a few money crunches and slow payments, Sperzel didn't care if Emmon's bought keys or not. Ron then hooked up with Grover who was importing a key. They designed a key for us. The key was working great then all of a sudden we're having the problem being discused. Come to find out they changed the depth of the threaded housing without telling anyone. After a few month's of complaining they finally corrected the problem. By this time there were a few thousand keys floating around that were incorrect. When the problem first occured we were replacing them under warranty. By this time I don't think the Emmons Co. could cover this under warranty. |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 20 January 2004 10:10 PM
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Emmons covered the problem on guitars up to five years old I believe. Another way to fix the problem is obtain longer barrel nuts. I got some from the Emmons Company. I don't know if they still have them. I also got some that were too long and ground them down. It would be worthwhile for some one to contact a key manufacturer and find a source for the longer nuts. They can only be about 1/16" longer or they will bottom out.
Jerry |
Jim Bates
Member From: Alvin, Texas, USA
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posted 23 January 2004 09:17 AM
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It looks like I hit on a generic problem with the Emmons tuning keys! Thanks to all for the suggestions. I have sent e-mail to Emmons, but no reply yet. If they have some longer extension nuts, I will glady get some from them.In my mind, Emmons had the design problem and should offer to fix the problem. My guitar is great otherwise. Thanx,
Jim |
John Lacey
Member From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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posted 23 January 2004 09:23 AM
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I sure wasn't crazy about the Sperzel's I had on my '83 Legrande. Most of them we're extremely stiff to operate, especially on the C6th. side. I finally ordered some Schallers from Jimmy Crawford and that sure helped a lot. |
Jack Strayhorn
Member From: Winston-Salem, NC
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posted 23 January 2004 09:34 PM
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I made a mistake in my earlier post speaking of the sperzel keys. It was the Schaller key that was designed for us and imported from Germany. The design problem with the Grover import was not the Emmons Co. design flaw. We however took resposiblilty and replaced many keys. At this late of a date I do not know how the Emmons Co. can still be held accountable but it would be the right thing to do to replace the keys. If not for free at least at a reduced rate. I believe Ron Jr. will help if you can contact him. |
Wayne Baker
Member From: Vacaville California
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posted 24 January 2004 10:40 PM
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I contacted Emmons Guitar Co. back in 00'. I wanted them to replace all of the tuners. They said they could sell me some tuners. Up to that point they had replaced (at no cost to me) four or five that had stripped out. Not wanting to mess with it anymore, I called up Steel-Guitar-Nashville and bought 20 new Sperzals. I re-machined both key-heads on a drill-press. It worked out great for me. At the time I originally ordered the steel Sperzal was not offered. I am extremely happy with my 93' LegrandeII, the Emmons Guitar Co., and of course (no hassle)Steel Guitar Nashville.
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Thanks,
Wayne Baker Emmons Legrande d-10, w/8&5, Emmons S10 p/p
w/3&4 Nashville 400, Boss DD3.
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Duane Marrs
Member From: Madison, Tennessee, USA
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posted 25 January 2004 06:43 PM
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We too, have had trouble in the past with this particular key. The problem has been corrected. A few years ago I discussed it with Jack Strayhorn. He told me of the situation. Grover simply didn't thread deeply enough on these keys. It is a 210-C part number. Grover was kind enough to replace several I returned to them a couple of years ago. The rotomatic Grover Sho-Bud used is a fine key that almost never fails. However, the grease does dry after many years making turning difficult. The Sperzel Duane introduced to Sho-Bud in the 70's and is also a fine key. All of these keys are available to us and we would be happy to order replacements reasonably for anyone needing them. Please allow time for the order to arrive to us. Also, the Shaller fits the Grover drill hole and will accept the Grover button, but must use the longer screw. I have one on my personal guitar and you can't even tell the difference. A set of replacement keys usually runs about 75.00 per neck. Jeff Surratt |
Tom Hodgin
Member From: greensboro, n.c. u.s.a.
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posted 28 January 2004 09:41 AM
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Had a Marlen for 25 yrs...never a problem with the keys...Had my Emmons for 4 yrs...no problem there either..guess I'm lucky..but I have wondered what damage a "power drill" could cause over time to a set of keys..I think I'll call "Black&Decker" .....tom |
Loren Morehouse
Member From: Meadowlands, MN USA
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posted 28 January 2004 03:07 PM
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My "85" Pro I had Sperzels on it when I bought it and they were terrible!! I finally bought a set of Schallers, had them machined and not sorry I did, they've been great!! Not too fond of the little Grovers either. Loren. |
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