I'm playing in a production, and the piano - even after being tuned somewhat - is a tad flat (about A=438), with variations all over the place. I've basically been matching my E's to the piano and then tuning the rest via beats...

Would you guys approach this by tuning your Es with the A&B pedals down, or pedals up? I've tried both and had mixed results. It's that old hobgoblin I've heard so much about: cabinet drop.

1. It tends to counteract (as you say) cabinet drop problems.

2. By doing thi, it sharpens everything, BUT bringing those infernal "3rds" up, tend to make the PSG blend better with most other instruments in the band.

This is why I recommend one go with the Jeff Newman tuning chart, since he has recommended for years that we start with a plus 2.5 HZ positive shift for the root E and root C (E9th and C6) necks respectively.

Again, by doing this, it brings those 3rds more in tune and it is those 3rds IMO which ARE the culpritts when we are told, "you are flat".

I'd do the same for C6: have the piano player play a C6 and then an F9 (for P6). If you have all those notes tuned, you can tune most of the other pedal changes from those.

PS: I HATE it when something like that happens. It's like having to use a capo for acoustic guitar -- it's never quite as well in tune as you usually are when you gotta change your whole tuning scheme onstage.

We usually tuned to a chord rather than a note, but the result was a compromise at best.

When evaluating the piano's tuning (particularly when you know there are problems with it), just taking one note doesn't mean all that much. If you can somehow determine (by ear or with a tuner) if the tuning still gets progressively more sharp as you proceed into the treble,(as would a well-tuned piano), then I would likely still tune pedals down, all other things being equal.

If, on the other hand, the piano tuner just had a chance to go through a very badly out of tune piano in one sitting, you may have a situation where the upper half flattens off noticeably, since he may have had to raise that section more drastically, with less than adequate time to let it settle and repeat as necessary. If that tendency is marked in the upper half in general, you may want to consider tuning pedals up.

I would be very hesitant to make a decision about an inconsistently tuned piano just by playing a single note, interval, or chord in only one octave.

You can start to get an idea of what general situation you have, by first checking what kind of beating you hear in octaves, double octaves and triple octaves. Then try playing two octaves of a major chord with both hands, and progressing with this same shape up and down the keyboard by half-steps.

If you want to take it even further, then do the same thing while separating your two hands with an empty octave, and finally with two empty octaves.

Just make sure you're not banking your whole night on a note or chord that might easily be an exception from the rest of the keyboard.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 10 March 2004 at 05:24 PM.]

Here's the method if you only want a problem with the A chord at the nut. Tune your Es with no pedals to a tuner (or the piano's Es; or the bass player's E in a guitar band not using a tuner). Tune all your open strings to that by ear. Your chords without the pedals will be in tune at the nut and with the bar up the neck. Now mash the AB pedals and tune those pedal stops to the Es. The Es will drop flat with the cabinet drop, but your A and B pedal strings will be tuned down to match them. Your A chord at the nut with the AB pedals down will be flat by the amount of your cabinet drop (across all strings). But your A chord will be in tune with itself. So your pedal down chords will be okay on all other frets, because with your bar and ear you will automatically compensate for the cabinet drop. So the only place there is a problem is with the pedals down at the nut, where all the strings will be flat according to the cabinet drop (but in tune with themselves there and everywhere else).

The other way will have your A chord at the nut in tune with the tuner (piano or whatever), but the open E chord will be sharp by the amount of your cabinet drop. You tune your Es at the nut (to the tuner) with the AB pedals down. Let off the pedals and tune all the open strings to the E strings (which will have gone sharp when you let off the pedals). Open at the nut your entire E chord will be sharp, but in tune with itself. With the bar up the neck you will compensate for the cabinet drop and be in tune. Now press the AB pedals down and tune those pedal stops to the Es (which will drop down to the correct pitch). Now your pedal-down chords will be in tune at the nut and with the bar up the neck.

So take your pick, E chord slightly sharp at the nut, or A chord slightly flat. Up the neck you'll be okay either way.

Now if you want everything slightly sharp, for Carl's reasons, or to match the stretch of a well tuned piano (as Paul Franklin suggests), or whatever, that is a separate issue. You can use either of the methods above to do that. But with cabinet drop and no compensators, you still have to choose which position at the nut you want to be in perfect tune with whatever you are tuning to.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 10 March 2004 at 05:25 PM.]

If you can determine the flat or sharpness with your tuner,
then your normal tuning regime can be dropped the same number of cents.

I'll have to carefully evaluate the 29 tunes we're doing and make a judgement once and for all on whether the open/no pedals position or the pedals down position gets preference in the final tuning method. I'm calling on the B6 sound a lot (just lowering the Es), but it's hard to deny the importance of the A&B position when you're trying to "make things sound country."

A Weekend with ET:

This for Carl, if nobody else, my esteemed colleague and good friend from GA.

I played in place of a local guy, Dale Granstrom, with his band, a three piece with a bass and an electronic piano. Great Band, Country Gold, with Buddy Carpenter and his wife Mary Ann on keys.

I had been playing with a local JI outfit with the standard Tele intonations the week nights.

With Both, I tuned straight up, each string, each change, all night.

With both, all players involved were 20 year plus vets of the bandstand.

With the tele, in the 5 piece job on Sun Mon and Thurs, I found, since it was my first time with him that it was a battle of wills as per usual, and that there was gradually agreement. Mainly centered around ET, and using "JI" for the passing runs and phrases. I was amazed at how long the "alignment" took. I can only guess that the Steel Player(s) he'd worked with have been more willing to dick around with their tunings. This probably caused a deep impression that "Steel Players are just always "out of tune".

I'd like to think that, and in the course of three out of a five night week, I made inroads on his perception.

Now, the Electronic Keyboard.

Heres a premise I dare to put forth. Carl (and others):

If TWO keyboards, tuned to straight ET can play together all night and not be 2 cents out of tune with each other on any song, run, or note, then the only reason a PSG can't play in tune with one on any song, run or note, is that they are trying to "temper" some of their boiler plate changes to "get beats out".

Alright. The First night, I was going nuts. Though I tuned straight up, I was hearing out of tune stuff all over the place. It was a REAL JOB.

Last night, I tuned straight up, the same way, and decided to play "more in tune", with more "authority and definition". More centered around MY trust in MY ET tuning than my ear.

It DID sound "In Tune". If I had more than two nights with them, I can only surmise that it would only become "More In Tune".

I have heard and been at top name gigs where the top guys (or guy) has been playing with an electronic keyboard. They sounded in tune to me.

I guess I might opine in a Hankeyesque Theorum, that "ET must be the framework for JI, or you're asking to be perpetually out of tune with a non ET instrument, OR another JI instrument.

The only way I can see to play with another JI instrument that's tuned funny is to agree apon ALL the changes, Songs, Runs, and Individual notes.

That's a lot of work on the order of a hundred thousand or more agreements per night. A darn lot for 50 bucks from where I sit..

Oh, it can be done as in a time period where I worked for a year or more with one of those worthless Yammie Mini Grands, but you have to do like I did and sneak in and retune his piano to ET, at night. He tuned it "by ear" to E chords mostly.

If I lost you, I probably meant to.

If not, you'll note that I do agree that the "beats out" does make for "perfection", but that it must be grounded in agreement with other instruments in order to be viable, and only when grounded in ET.

This is proved by the beginning "fact" that two keyboards tuned to ET can, and do "sound" in tune and are both tuned "straight up".

So can a PSG, Violin, wind, reed, or other "JI Instrument". Even when tuned "Straight up".

In short, they must.

I'd be glad to entertain orchestral methods of dealing with this, as the insight I've got has been mercifully borne of hillbilly backwater bush league gigs. Thousands of them.

Maybe somebody up the line here or otherwise can put it into a more understandable fashion.(hint: It matters not what frequency A is said to be, but they all must agree on "Zero" and all twelve "notes"* must align perfectly with them.) (* more or less with Indian, Eskimo, Aboriginal, or other musical systems)

Here's what I've "got" so far:

ET is Greater than or Equal to JI.

JI operates only within ET.

Though ET can operate without JI;

The reverse is not true.

Slap me, straighten me out.

Wrestle or Bless me.

I'm here to make you look and feel good.

EJL

PS: Inactivity of PSG changers is the Number One cause of Intonation Problems. Even on Sierras..

[This message was edited by Eric West on 14 March 2004 at 11:11 AM.]

The fixed strings are tuned to fifths or fourths, where there is essentially no difference between ET and JI. There are no fixed thirds. The open strings are often avoided in favor of the pitch by ear with vibrato on the appropriate adjacent string.

Pianos, organs and harpischords were long ago dropped from the normal orchestral instruments. They are only brought on stage for special numbers. The JI that the orchestra plays to is not fixed, it varies from key to key and from chord to chord. I would not guarantee that it is strictly JI, but is the sum of what all those sophisticated ears want. It is certainly closer to JI than ET, with the possible exception of playing with a piano.

I don't really know what happens on piano concertos. It would be interesting to put a bunch of tuners on various instruments to see. Much of the time the piano and orchestra take turns playing, or one is very dominant and the other is way in the background. Probably when the piano is dominant the orchestral ears comprise to ET, the same way top pro steelers do when playing with fixed pitch instruments. Obviously, it is not necessary to permanently fix every note to ET to do that. That's the beauty of instruments without fixed pitches. Typically, pianos play a lot of notes fast, without much sustain. So any dissonance is fleeting.

So essentially orchestras do what apparently the vast majority of top pro steelers do. They avoid ET as much as possible, but compromise in the limited number of situations where it is a problem (compromise on a note to note basis, not by tuning the whole instrument ET). Insisting that everything always be tuned ET just seems a bit rigid. Sure it's easier and simpler to tune everything straight up to a meter and forget you have ears. It just sounds worse to a lot of us, including all those symphony orchestras.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 14 March 2004 at 12:20 PM.]

quote:

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..You say my wife fell out of the car a few blocks back?.. Thank God. I thought I was going deaf....

---

Oh and all that said, in the context that ET is tempered to a much more limited extent, to my limited understanding.

I guess it's all in the toilet when there's a piano around, though I'm not buying that..

Well, the first "point" I guess is the "Period".

They ARE tuned to a definite point. Trumpet slide IS set to a finite point (like every reed, and wind, instrument that I know of besides the pennywhistle and the ocarina).

I've played with a couple trumpet players, one, Ron Barnes, is the best in the area that I know of. He'd tune his trumpet to a certain note that one of us would provide for him, and like the PSG, He'd automatically ( through like us YEARS of doing it) temper his thirds sixths etc as he played them in relation to the chord function. Probably not as complicated as a multi-not instrument, but not to be fooled, sometimes those guys are sharper than ANY of us "multis" give them credit for..

Fixed Instruments to my knowledge, are not "only played" where ET somehow miraculously matches JI. At least in my half century that I've been made aware of. Sometimes they play ALL the time, like harps or in Glockenspiel Oriented Songs.

Next. Its the "Fourth or Fifth" instruments.

This is just my experience, but when like I've said you have a fiddle ( violin player) that plays out of open position to play in tune, you have an out of tune monstrosity that follows whatever dissonance distracts him/her. I have no hesitation in saying that because I know of at least two of each type.

Locally ( or formerly locally) Donny Herron and James Mason are examples of the ones that mainly use their open strings to play to.

They key their melodies to their open strings rather than to what they {i]think they hear[/i]. I'm sure they automatically temper there thirds etc as they go OR skip notes they know will sound a bit out. Takes them a long time to learn their craft. At least the good ones.

It is merely my opinion that there is no certainty of orchestral instruments being "closer to JI than ET", because JI ONLY becomes "active" in thirds, sixths, and other notes and not unisons or ocatves. Therefore I'd be safer in assuming that at any given point the JI is ONLY in relation to the ET Tonic. That's my opinion anyhow.

I dunno what happens in piano concertos either, as I don't hang with those guys..

I do know that when two ET pianers play the same ET ( relatively so as I mentioned) they ARE in tune. They even sound that way. Splain that SVP..

What I was explaining about "Compromising to ET" the same way "top pro steelers" do as you mention is a BIT*H!. I'm not used to doing it, so like I said, it only got easier after one night. Lots more guys than "top name pro steelers" do this. I can attest to that after a couple thousand bush league dogfights..

I've been cursed with, besides a very uncompromising tempo sense, a very good ear.

The best is when I've not played for more than a week, and my ear isn't tuned by constant recent use.

As I noted before to your next paragraph is that most phrases to be heard in tune only like "word groups" only need to be "correct" in length and the beginning and end to be legible. This DOES make the "job" of matching ET MUCH easier for the aforementioned. It't not magic.

quote:

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Insisting that everything always be tuned ET just seems a bit rigid.

---

It is (though not an unbearable "tyranny" considering the mind numbing complexity of these "JI Charts"..) Like other instruments that are NOT fixed, the PSG MUST be constantly played with automatic correction in mind. Maybe that's why it takes ten or more years to get a "handle" on it.

Not to feel bad though, they tell me that Sitars take a half century to achieve "journeyman status". The first couple years chained to a tree according to Ravi Shankar..

.. Or I guess a guy could copy off a ** tuning tempered chart and play just like him.. Maybe with twenty years of experience... None of it is "that easy".

I don't get a lot of attention from the symphony orchestras in my areas, and I probably don't sound all that good to them when they come in. Mostly because they want to talk while the band is playing and they get pretty drunk.....

Anyhow, thanks for answering and hopefully for considering my light hearted, if not headed reply.

Remember the example or two ET pianos playing perfectly in tune with each other. (Electronic)

I've heard it plenty of times...

Sometimes I can even play along....

This Fri and Sat I even got paid for doing it.. $150 total. It paid as much as the other three nights done at the "JI" gig.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 14 March 2004 at 08:10 PM.]

quote:

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Remember the example or two ET pianos playing perfectly in tune with each other.

I've heard it plenty of times...

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Pianos are tuned first to sound good with themselves, and the inharmonicity of each piano is different.

You'll only approach perfection, when matching two pianos, if they are the same make and model, with identical "scales," i.e. the overall relationship of all the varying string lengths to each other.

Rather than tune two pianos that differ significantly from each other exactly the same, I believe the vast majority of tuners would prefer the slight variance between them, since dissonances of each piano with itself would be more noticeable.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 14 March 2004 at 05:29 PM.]

Mind you there is the "old time" "One instrument playing at a time" school, but they don't seem to be working a lot nowadays.

While a dozen of my previous statements are being cherry picked and possibly misconstrued, I might add this:

When I play in a band, regardless of the proficiency of the guitar player I choose to be across the stage from him/her/it. I do this because natural dissonance between the two instruments is less noticeable from the audience percpective.

I have noticed in several top name acts, most recently the Dierks Bentley show that featured Gary Morse, that this same stage positioning was chosen.

I only suggest that this "JI Thing" be the icing on the "ET cake", or it gets way too complicated. At least for me..

Of course, others' results may vary..

EJL

Now, from this point on, the instrument players are not thinking JI or ET, they are just playing what sounds right. While I don't doubt that some people can train themselves to think and play and sing ET, in general, people will think and play and sing JI. It's just natural. That's where the whole JI thing comes from. The matheticians figured out that JI was the small fractional relationships after they heard people playing and singing that way, not the other way around.

So what this means is that even though the entire orchestra tuned to A=440, if they play in F, so that A is the third, depending on how the F tonic is established, the A may not be played by ear to 440 by the orchestra. I really don't know how the tonic pitch for the key of F would be established at the outset of the piece. Orchestras and bands don't necessarily retune between numbers in different keys. So unless the key is A (or Bb for a brass band), they may be somewhere near A=440 for the tonic of that key, but not necessarily right on it. And the third would usually be played by ear to somewhere flat of A=440, unless of course the tonic pitch was sharp, so that the A could land on 440, but still be flat of the tonic reference.

I played sax in brass bands in high school and college (and the procedure seemed the same as what I have seen orchestras do). You tune to the concert pitch at the beginning of the session. But nobody gives you an ET A=440 for each different tonic for each different key you play. Since the instruments are all centered on A=440, then whatever note you start on will be roughly centered there too. If you start on the tonic, then that's probably near A=440, but the third would be flat of that. If the piece actually started on the 3rd, possibly that would be about A=440, but when you get to your tonic it would be JI sharp of A=440. In other words the pitch drifts around A=440 as the players play by ear to JI.

This does get complicated. I really don't know how orchestras handle a key where one of the open strings is the third of the key. Obviously they can't play the third JI unless they started with tonic sharp of A=440. They would have to avoid the open string, or live with it ET. Any symphony conductors or classical string players out there? Brass bands don't have to deal with this, because there are no open strings. Every note is played by ear on horns.

I thought about a lot of that today, and you seemed to answer a lot of our questions.

The starting of a scale or run of notes on a 'third' that has been flatted in a PSG tuning is the problem. ( or any other note). Oh it IS compensated for automatically by someone used to doing it for years on end, just like modding the slant in a certain spread at any given point. I find Root/Fofths are the best for moving chords, and it's probably for that reason, though I don't give it much thought in the middle of a song.

Don't let's discount the human brain, as that is what makes our left hands work in a seeming "automatic" way.

In an orchestra, I can about guarantee that they don't ban open strings OR fixed note instruments. I doubt they even avoid them, though my reading on this continues.

One more example is the Vibes. I don't remember Lionel Hampton's playing being unpleasing to the ear.

Hmm..

I like these exchanges where there is more of an exchange of things that make each other think than to argue. I don't mind putting out my opinions thataway.

You have some good ones.

Now, all that said, being a long time player, regardless of the 'top shelf' venues or bands I can tell you these points.

Most out of tune steel playing comes not from how many cents sharp or flat a player tunes certain notes, but whether or not he can move his bar in sinc with a good ear.

It's a lot less how you tune it, and more how you play it. Not to mention how often.

EJL

See, after a while you don't even notice the beats.
-John

Even on a fretted 6-string, for folk and country, I prefer to touch it up close to JI for the I, IV, and V chord for the key of the song. If I change key for the next song, I want to touch it up again for the new key. For jazz and a lot of key changes and complicated chords, I would probably prefer ET, but I don't play much of that.

On sax, if I were playing completely solo, I'd probably be doing it by ear to JI (but it's just one note at a time, so how much difference does it make?). Playing sax in a group, I'm matching whatever other instrument is setting the chord I guess. If it's a piano or ET tuned bass, I guess I am matching that.

Lately I play my JI pedal steel sometimes with an ET tuned harp (and it is sometimes a pedal harp!). I haven't noticed any serious problems. I think each instrument sounds better in tune with itself. For the harp that means ET, and for my steel that means JI. As I mentioned before, Jim Cohen has found the same thing when playing pedal steel with a piano. People just want to hear the instrument in tune with itself. The ear (brain) apparently hears each instrument separately. Any clash between instruments seems less noticeable than a clash of an instrument with itself. And to me, that's what bothers me about tuning my steel ET.

Okay, I gotta look around for somebody who plays strings in an orchestra and find out how they handle the open string thing. I think it's avoided. When I'm at the symphony, I don't ever remember seeing the string players not using vibrato on every note. Maybe in a fast run they hit the open strings. But for a sustained note, I can't imagine them not using the fretted position with vibrato. Of course, on those lowest notes on the lowest string, you got no choice. But how much do they use those?

I'm sure composers and conductors think about these things. The different keys that symphonic pieces use are not neutral. They each have a distinctive sound and mood, based on which keys bring out certain sounds from certain instruments.

I'm going to have to consider a few of these points for a while. I'll be the only lead instrument in a gig this weekend, and then some mixed gigs.

Last weekend with a Roland Electronic and my being able to match it better the second night was a real eye opener.

It's nice to have different type gigs to compare things with.

My Uncle played clarinet with the Minn MN Symphany for years, and if I get a chance I'll ask him about some of those issues. Also BTW, my Dad, many years ago besides tuning pianos played the only other pedal change instrument besides a harp, the Tympani (Kettle Drums) in his college symphony orchestra. I'd almost forgotten. I no longer have the benefit of his counsel though, sadly.

Now if only my political arguments would take such a civil turn..