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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff.

Your comments are indeed legit. I was just having some fun.

Let me give you my 40+ yr take on it.

Jerry Byrd of course invented this incredible tuning called C6 (IMO, it really is A minor 7th). And he pioneered its built-in beautiful melody; playing like no one else on earth. I love that type of playing with my soul.

I had hoped that when pedals came along, this would be expanded. Sadly (for me), that is not generally the way it happened. This brings us to dissonance. Let me digress:

Try this, on your E9th neck play the following: Strings 5, 6 and 9 with the A pedal engaged. Why does this chord sound sooo rich" It of course is the same reason that makes a major 7th so rich. (Strings 8, 6, 5 and 2 letting all strings sustain).

Except for those two examples, the E9th neck is generally not played using dissonance. That brings us back to the C neck. If you listen closely to the way most of the greats play it, 2 notes separated by a half a tone stands out all over the place and consistently. The following are examples:

1. Pedal 4 is a natural disonant pedal by itself.

2. Pedal 5 and 6 picking strings 2, 3 and 5 are used all the time as a dissonant (and jazzy) "13th" chord.

3. Pedal 6 and 7 with the D and the Eb notes being used all the time in a dissonant jazz chord.

4. Pedal 7 and 8 with the D and the C# notes making a full 6 note 11th chord with that beautiful dissonance ringing out.

5. Pedal 8 alone with the C and the C# with that dissonant "raised 9th" chord.

6. The chord John spoke of.

7. Raising JUST the top A to Bb and using the 6th pedal makes a great jazz F9th chord with an added suspended dissonant note. Buddy uses this a lot.

In studying these combinations (and others) and how this dissonance is used by most of the greats while playing C6th, IMO, I must conclude that when it comes to the PSG, it truly is a "dissonant" neck.

However, having said that, I would have been even more pleased IF the greats had chosen to use the pedals in a more melody style playing like Jerry played, only using pedals. That was not to happen. I do not believe it ever will.

And finally, it was not and is not for me to tell the greats how to play. That right is theirs alone. And I love them all.

May Jesus richly bless them and you always,

Thanks again for all your insights here on the forum!

Funny also was my first encounter with a pedal C6th guitar... I had gotten used to pull a string or two, behind the bar with my finger or do some slanting... however the pulls I found on the PSG where not the one I expected.
Maybe E9th is just that "make (almost) any string pair a 2nd, minor 3rd, 3rd and 4th/5th interval"-machine... (?)

I think this first came up when discussing Emmons' knee levers that raise and lower strings 3 and 4 - by half tones.

When you think of it - E9th has kind of developed into a "pretty pull" perspective. If I lower/raise a note, I will raise the octave of that note too. This results in some very unique sounds within the E9th tuning.

When playing jazz inspired music, the setup methodology kind of falls apart on E9th, because - to change a melody note, I often must change a note within the rest of the chord structure - in effect, not creating the whole intended chord.

Using Mr. Emmons' approach on C6th, it allows me to in effect, grab a chord, and place any melody note on top, without those levers changing part of the chord below. In a lot of cases, this creates more "dissonant" chord structures (or the possibilities for them). Dissonance is not meant from a negative perspective, only a descriptive one. Perhaps the better term would be "complex".

These philosophical differences between tunings probably will keep me playing a D-10 guitar, instead of a universal. I view them as very different animals.

Just one guy's opinion,

David Spires

[This message was edited by David Spires on 29 April 2004 at 03:12 PM.]

The nature of the 3rd and and 4th string lowers (that are not doubled at the lower octave) allow for these fatter extended chords (which are useless for much "straight" country music but essential to swing and jazz styles).

(Never trust a guy who uses too many parenthesis

Now, in the straight non-pedal tuning GECAGECA (without the F on the bottom), there is room for honkin' dissonance if you want it, built right in to the major second G to A interval. Same for ECAGECA (your choice for string 8- G, F, even E).

I have just finished a book of Joaquin transcriptions written with Andy Volk that will show some of the amazing possibilities that Joaquin found in this tuning...

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff.

[This message was edited by John McGann on 29 April 2004 at 05:38 PM.]

quote:

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"Carl...when you say that the way the pedals evolved on the C6 neck hav'nt expanded the original Jerry Byrd tuning the way you had hoped, I'm still not sure in what way you mean? I'd like to hear a little more about the "melodic" possibilities that never happened for the pedals if you wouldnt mind elaborating a bit more. Is it that there arent as many basic "chord progression specific" changes like the I to IV (A+B pedal)change on E9th without moving the bar? What pedal changes would you have liked to see happen differently?"

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Rick, the answer is yes along with some more things.

Ok, and again this is my take. Jerry Byrd played straight pure melody on everything he played on his inovative C6 tuning. By that, he rarely used the C6 as an "ad-lib" neck. Also, he did not use the neck as a straight "chording" neck. But he did use chords occassionally.

One of his classic chords on his C6/A7 tuning (E on top) was to move down one fret (from the I chord) strumming strings 7 through 3 and then sliding down one more fret to the V7 chord. This gave him a I to V7 resolve. And sometimes he would strum for the "6th" chord. Ouside of that he mostly played straight melody.

Now, if you listen to almost everyone that plays a C6 PSG, they will fall into any one or all of the following styles:

1. Straight western swing. Which is very heavy on the "ad-lib" side.

2. A "Chalker" straight chord style for almost every note. With a lot of ad-libbed and substituted chords to go along with it.

3. Single string rifts almost exclusively ad-libbing; often called jazz but in most cases is more jamming than jazz.

Now this is fine, and apparently all love it because that is the way the PSG ended up (for the most part) when it comes to C6.

But it did not have to be this way. For example, Jerry used a "split slant" to get his 7th or 9th chords. Also a 3 fret slant to get the 2nd inversion of his "A minor" chords. As well as many other slants to get "that resolved phrase" or chord.

So my desire would have been that this is the way the pedals would have been utilized; only in this case to finish the chords rather than be relegated to 2 or 3 note chords. BUT still play pure melody and not have to slant to resolve.

Here is one example that is impossible (without slanting) on the standard C6 copedent. A minor 3rd to major 3rd resolve on strings 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. This has bugged me since day one.

Now of course recently with the addition of the 3rd and forth knee levers it is possible. But even here there is no place to get a I to IV, 3 note resolve such as pedals A and B on E9th. And I feel it has always been sadly lacking.

So best to show you the copedent I believe should have been from day one; if Jerry's pioneering C6 would have evolved to pedals. But I will admit this is ONLY my idea. Since it has never evolved, then I am alone; but you asked. So here goes:

   4  5  6  7  8  9  LKL  LKV  LKR  RKL  RKR
G        F#
E                 D*                 F   F
C  D        D              B*   C#
A     Bb    B         Ab* 
G        F#
E                                    Eb  F
C  D           C#               C#
A     Bb        
F        F#    E  G
C        D     A
* splits with the raises

This copedent fills in all the missing "melody resolves" IMO. It also does some more very handy things.

1. Places the standard 5 and 7 pedals together, where they should have always been.

2. Gives an almost mandatory "blues" chord on string 2; IE, pedal 9 gives an Eb (splitting with RKL or RKR). An example is "Steelin the Blues" can be played in any key! Pedal 9 with LKV gives a reverse IV to I resolve picking strings 1, 2 and 3.

3. The F note on string 6 was and is (for the most part) missing on most C6 copedents. With this F note along with pedals 5 and 6, you have that all important I to IV or V to I resolve when you need it. AND IMO you need it a lot. And it does not have to sound like E9th. Especially since the 3rd string (E9th) is not there.

4. That G note on string 9 is worth its weight in Gold. One favorite melody lick using this change is the opening background notes to the original "Canadian Sunset" hit in the 50's. Using a thumb and finger triplett roll on strings 10, 9 and 8.

5. The F# (string 1) on pedal 6 gives a needed "3rd" melody note (on top), in lieu of the Jazzy augmented 11th chord. And IMO, is needed a lot more.

This copedent would have felt right at home (IMO), to Jerry Byrd, if he had ever gone to pedals. Because it allows EVERY thing he does on most all his tunings (in a single tuning) without taking his foot off the volume pedal and more importantly, without slanting the bar.

If you study all the combinations, you end up with a universal C6 neck that simply has it all. And straight "resolving" melody can be played on just about every tune imaginable.

Finally by placing the standard pedal 6 on RKL, you can use this incredible change with EVERY single pedal and knee lever. IMO, it simply does not get any better than that.

Then a player like Jerry Byrd or anyone wishing to play straight melody (with a bottom) using pedals has it all. With the exception of straight country, I know of nothing that cannot be done with this copedent. If so I would like to hear from you fellows.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 30 April 2004 at 09:09 AM.]

Thanks again!

But in two different ways. On the U-12 Universal, I have the following:

                     LKL   (LOK)    RKR   
   1 2 3 4 5 6 7  LKL   LKV LKR  RKL   RKR
F#     F                          G#
D#        (D)         D     (C#)  E     C#
G#   A
E            C#F#* F         Eb     (E)*
B  C#    C#              Bb*
G#   A   A#                       F#*
F#     F
E                  F         Eb      D
B  C#      C          D                 C#
G#   A                B           F#*
E      F   D#F#    F 
B      C#  G#      C#                   A
* splits 

(E) means this string is pulled back up to an E when the E's are lowered. This knee lever (RKR2) emulates the standard 6th pedal on C6; also RKL on the other copedent.

(C#) means this string is locked to C# when the E's are locked to Eb (Straight B6 mode)

(D) means when the 2nd string is locked to a C#, pedal 5 pulls this string back up to a D note. This is the same change Buddy Emmons has on pedal 8 since he uses a D on top. On B6 it is C#. As you probably know, on a Universal, you can have the G AND the D (F# and C# on B6).

If you compare this to the other copedent, they are almost identical; except B6 (E's lowered) instead of C6.

Prior to ordering the Universal, my D-10, C6 neck was set up identical to the other copedent.

I have since converted the D-10 back to a standard copedent. I did this since I am strongly considering selling the LeGrande; since I never play it.

A couple of interesting changes on this copedent. Note Pedal 7. I use it in two distinctly different ways.

1. It emulates the C pedal; or as I call it, "my Mooney pedal" when playing strictly "country" on E9th.

2. When the E's are lowered and pedals 4 and 5 are engaged, it gives me a full 7 note 13th chord (strings 10 thru 4) which I can rock on and off of. I use it quite a bit.

In both cases I use this pedal with my right foot only. I am strongly considering moving it to pedal 9 position to get it closer to the volume pedal.

Also note pedal 6. String 4 is being lowered a full tone and a half. I can use it for E9th embellishment, or B6 embellishment.

It has some very interesting resolves which have caused it to become more than just a seldom used pedal. In addition to the same thing I said about being a "blues" pedal since it splits with RKR2 and gives a very needed D note on string 4. This to me is worth its weight in gold.

Finally, with that F# (G on C6) on the bottom I could never live without after having it. This makes a bottom strum in the I chord great and should have always been IMO. Sure the E note (F in C6) is a needed note. But there are plenty of times it simply ruins the chord. I love to strum that rich C chord with that G note on the bottom.

not for all, but....

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 30 April 2004 at 01:04 PM.]

I just received an amail from someone* who read this thread. I do not know who sent the email and my reply was returned "undelivered".

So I am replying in this post.

"You are indeed correct. Thanks for writing to me, and may Jesus richly bless you and yours always"

carl

quote:

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Most of the groups I work with do some C&W, so the absence of a smooth I to IV shift on the C6th has been a thorn in my side for years.

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       E to A
D _____2----2____________________________
E _______________________________________
C _______________________________________
A _____2----2##__________________________
G _____2b---2____________________________
E _______________________________________
C _______________________________________
A _______________________________________
F _______________________________________
C _______________________________________
       p5   p4 

It looks to me that you have ALL the bases covered, for playing all the old standards, big band, jazz , with the ability to play full beautiful melodies with full chords.

I use a similar setup only E tonic and A Subdominant. Your G on the 9th string is really importan, I use A to B on my E6th basic tuning.

I can't see anything that you haven't covered ,
except, maybe, flatting the 5th string G (5th)to F and flatting the 6th string E (3rd)to D. which gives you a full F6th chord(subdominate).

I do that on my E6th tuning (which I picked up originally from Alvino Rey).

It brings my 5th B down a whole tone to A, and my 3rd G# down a whole tone to F#. This gives me a full A6th chord(subdominate).Plus a lot more when used with various pedals.(flatted 5th and flatted 3rd pedals.)

Great Post, it is nice to see this kind of original thinking. Isn't this Forum Great?....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 03 May 2004 at 09:42 PM.]

You are correct. I first saw that change on a Maurice Anderson copedent 35 yrs ago. I call it the reverse of pedal 7 change. IE, instead of pulling from a 6th to a major 9th, you are lowering from a major 9th to a 6th which is used all the time in certain types of music.

The most logical place to put that change (IMO) on the C neck, and where I would have it, is to install a 2nd LKL and do it there. Then as you say, the tuning would be complete as far as I can tell, after years of study.

This change also can be used perfectly with RKL or RKR; as well as picking strings 3, 5 and 8 then engaging pedal 6 (5 on a standard C6 tuning) as the strings sustain, then bring in the knee lever and release pedal 6. A common Jazz resolve would ensue in this case.

Thanks for reminding me of that Al,