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Author
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Topic: B-3 Sounds on Steel
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Jerry Overstreet
Member From: Louisville Ky
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posted 29 April 2004 08:00 PM
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After many months and even years, I have finally arrived at a program patch on my Boss SX700 that is pretty faithful to the Hammond. I even have a footswitch that serves the brake function like a Leslie. I have a few ideas on playing techniques to emulate the organ sounds but I could sure use some help from you guys that are more proficient at it. For instance, how would you emulate the swipes that organ players do? Or comping? Any other info you feel like passing on, please do. Either tuning.
Before you guys start flaming me for trying to make the steel sound like another instrument, think about how cool this would be to get his share of the gig money!  Thanks.
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Dixson Rudolph
Member From: Dodson, Louisiana USA
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posted 30 April 2004 10:19 AM
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"SWIPES" on a STEEL!!! That's a good one!! Can you emulate the Hammond percussion with it? How about the c-3 chorus/vibrato? I'd LOVE to hear somebody do some good 'squabbling' on a steel!!! Man, if I could do all THAT with technique and effects on a steel, who neez all them Hammints? I could sell off my collection, bank about 50 large, and have some ROOM in my house!
Gliss??? I'd say just kick da Lezzie on FAST,
slide yer BAR up and/or down, and there....you......go!
Being both a Ham/Les and steel enthusiast, I'd like to hear more about this technique! |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 30 April 2004 10:24 AM
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I'd reccomend listening to Rusty Young playing the B3 style on steel.
This alblum has some great B3 on steel:http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=UIDMISS70404301324482962&sql=Adnb1z83ajyv3 Check out the tune "Man Like Me".
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 30 April 2004 at 10:26 AM.] |
Dixson Rudolph
Member From: Dodson, Louisiana USA
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posted 30 April 2004 10:44 AM
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I've noticed quite a similarity in Buddy Emmons' comping style and that of jazz organ players like Joey De Francesco, Jimmy Smith, Jack Mc Duff, (et.al.) They know all those nice FAT chords, do a lot of quick horn-like
'stabs', things like that.
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Tim Whitlock
Member From: Arvada, CO, USA
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posted 30 April 2004 11:07 AM
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Listen to "Kind Woman" by Buffalo Springfield, featuring Rusty Young on the pedal steel. You can barely distinguish the difference betwwen his steel sound, through a Leslie, and a B3. Not my favorite sound, but this has to be the definitive example. |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 30 April 2004 11:46 AM
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"Kind Woman"? B3? To my ears, Kind Woman is straight steel sound. B3 would be on something like "El Tanto de Nadie" by Poco... |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 30 April 2004 11:52 AM
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The best organ simulation I've found is with a Boss Flanger, I don't have the model number in my office with me. I also have an Ibanez flanger and you can get the same great organ tones out of that...Have a good 'un, JH------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 30 April 2004 at 11:53 AM.]
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Jerry Overstreet
Member From: Louisville Ky
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posted 30 April 2004 01:48 PM
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Thanks for the replies guys, I was on the fence as to where to post this, if at all, I was hoping it wouldn't morph into a thread on effects, but maybe I should have posted over in Electronics.
So Mr.Moderator, please free to move it.
It was really more about how to think like an organ player, obviously it could never sound exactly like an organ, but if you notice I said emulate not recreate. Dixson, I have the utmost respect for the guys you mentioned, also Jimmy McGriff and several others, and yourself if you play organ. I'd like to hear you play sometime. I'm not talking about some cheesy imitation of a leslie here though, the unit I have was designed with the keyboard in mind. The rotary section has some 20 parameters that address Horn/Rotor ratio, independent speeds, depth control, tremolo, rise and fall times, mic and overdrive issues too. Yes, even percussion and some leakage type sounds, believe it or not.
I believe even you might say they are pretty convincing sounds, although they may be one dimensional. Buddy Emmons does some nice comping on the Minors Aloud album. He has a percussive attack anyway. No telling the things he could do, or Curly, if he
were still around.
Anyway onward and forward w/my quest, nevermind the naysayers.
Thanks guys.
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 30 April 2004 02:04 PM
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Using 4 picks helps a lot when comping organ parts. |
John Wiesner
Member From: Clifton Park, New York, USA
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posted 30 April 2004 04:49 PM
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Nothing like the real thing. After 45 years of playing Hammond B-3 I can tell you there is something about that sound that is imposible to duplicate. I have not been playing steel for a long time but have become totally hoohed on the pedal steel. It is fantastic what kind of sound you get when you play the B-3 with the steel. the classic old country songs are so big and sweet that you can drive nails into the sound, buy a Hammond, It is easier than the steel  |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 30 April 2004 05:31 PM
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Yep, Bobby , It sure helps anytime.4 picks all the way....al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ |
Wayne Cox
Member From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA
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posted 30 April 2004 07:58 PM
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You might want to listen to CURLEY CHALKER's "Big Hits on the Big Steel"album. He played a jazzed-up version of "Wolverton Mountain" using the "Leslie" effect. I think he may have used a real Leslie on this. The best electronic Leslie simulators acheive their effect by combining at least two of the following effects: phase shifter,vibrato,and flanger. Also,I just remembered that i also di a "rake" or a "swipe" on a recording about 10 years ago. It blew everyone away (everyone on the session) but it was easy to do because I had my E9th neck tuned in straight succession instead of the standard way with "out-of-sequence" strings. I haven't done this Leslie thing in many years but I was really into that sound 15-20 years ago.
~~W.C.~~[This message was edited by Wayne Cox on 30 April 2004 at 08:09 PM.] [This message was edited by b0b on 01 May 2004 at 09:20 AM.] |
Gary Walker
Member From: Morro Bay, CA
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posted 30 April 2004 09:34 PM
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Wayne, according to someone who knew, Curly used Pete Drake's Leslie type speaker for that great recording. I remember driving down the road listening to KUZZ radio out of Bakersfield and the tune was a third the way through before I realized it was Chalker playing a tune on the album that I had seen forthcoming in Billboard magazine. I was in a daze for hours after that. I later bought the Fender version licensed from Leslie and used that until I got tired of carrying it around. |
Brian Herder
Member From: Philadelphia, Pa. USA
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posted 01 May 2004 05:54 AM
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The "Kind Woman" w/Leslie is from the first live Poco Lp (DeLiverin'?). Makes you glad that there's the Buffalo Springfield version. |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 01 May 2004 06:29 AM
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Ah, thank you for clarifying that for me, Brian. I was about to eat my hat! By the way, where are you in Philly? I'm up in Elkins Park, just north of town, and play all over Philly with Beats Walkin'... |
Jerry Overstreet
Member From: Louisville Ky
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posted 01 May 2004 06:49 AM
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b0b and Al, you mean 4 picks including the thumb or do you get the pinky in on the act too? I'll have to try that.
Brian and Jim, you guys live in the jazz organ capital of the world don't you?
I think the DeFrancesco's actually did or do live in Delaware but close enough.
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Brian Herder
Member From: Philadelphia, Pa. USA
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posted 01 May 2004 06:53 AM
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Jim, I am in the NE- I sent you an email. Jerry, I believe that you are correct. Years ago I there was a segment on the local news about this jazz wizkid..an early teen Joey D in a basement full of B3s....I guess that was more years than I care to think about. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 01 May 2004 11:38 AM
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Electronics aside, I use two rhythmic techniques when I'm comping "organ" parts:
1. Four string chord grabs. These can be very percussive, but it's a real challenge to do them fast enough.
2. Alternate between thumb note and 3-finger chord grab. An easier technique, but it's not quite as effective.
Another "organ" technique is the high sustaining note. It's really hard to get enough sustain to simulate this effect, because organ players will sometimes hold one high note for a full 4 measures. Start it with the slow rotor, and then kick up the rotor speed towards the end.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 01 May 2004 11:40 AM
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Jerry, I use a thumb pick and 3 finger picks. I reserve my pinky for harmonics. |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 03 May 2004 05:21 AM
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I also use the thumb and fingerpicks for guitar so over the years I've developed a technique where I use the ring finger and pinky with reinforced nails for additional grips. I couldn't use a third fingerpick as I double the ring finger under for blocking on the pedal steel. With the fake fingernails on those two other fingers you can get the grips pretty easy with minimal practice. I do finger harmonics with the thumbpick and ring finger and also sometimes pick some notes with the ring finger for a different texture....Have a good 'un, JH------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 03 May 2004 at 05:24 AM.]
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Bob Snelgrove
Member From: san jose, ca
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posted 03 May 2004 06:44 AM
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Bobby Black used to use a box called the "Junior" that came darn close. Of course, it was Bobby bob |
Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 03 May 2004 07:44 AM
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I don't know how close it comes to a "B-3" sound but I get good results with the H & K Rotosphere for Leslie effects.
Erv |
Tim Whitlock
Member From: Arvada, CO, USA
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posted 03 May 2004 09:02 AM
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Sorry, my bad! It was the Poco version of "Kind Woman" with the organ effect. |
Dave Burr
Member From: Tyler, TX
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posted 03 May 2004 10:35 AM
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Interesting discussion.I'm curious if anyone knows what "organ" technique Jimmy Day used on the chorus of Johnny Bush's version of Farewell Party (recorded in 1967) - I always thought it sounded really cool and quite convincing. Respectfully,
Dave Burr |
Buck Dilly
Member From: Branchville, NJ, USA
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posted 04 May 2004 03:20 PM
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I have my POD XT and Rotosphere set up for a couple of things. The POD has the honky,tubey, in a tunnel-tonal thing and has an envelop follower (Rusty used a Wah). Used discriminately some nice effects can be had. The most important thing is getting next to the Hammond blues-jazz voicings. FOr this the C6 neck rule. For a gliss- I slant the bar with the trem on fast and use every every finger on my Right hand as fast as possible. WIth a bit of dirt this does the trick. I play Hammond a lot, still. It's all about the voicings. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 04 May 2004 03:52 PM
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I forgot my Rotosphere at rehearsal one night and just used a constant left hand vibrato motion. The big trick was to have the bar in motion before I picked the strings, so that the actual landing pitch was unpredictable. ------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
Matt Williams
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 06 May 2004 02:21 PM
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I've seen Dave Easley from NOLA do the B-3 thing as well. Im not sure what simulation effect he used, but I think he had some kind of midi-unit that he was using. Yes, he had his steel set up as a midi-trigger for those purposes (I think). This seem likely to me because in addition to a dirty B-3 sound, he KILLLED us with a trombone solo on his steel. Think about it...having the 'slide' in common made a ridicuously convincing bone sound. |
Dale Granstrom
Member From: Wilsonville, Or USA
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posted 06 May 2004 06:59 PM
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I took some instruction from Curly Chalker in 1997 and he showed me what he used to get the B-3 effect. It was a small stomp box that he had gotten from Scotty DeWitt. I don't remember the brand or name. Maybe Scotty remembers. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 06 May 2004 07:44 PM
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You don't really need effects to sound like a trombone. It's all in the hands! The 8th string of the E9th is in the right register. Just play trombone parts on it.------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
James Quackenbush
Member From: Pomona, New York, USA
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posted 06 May 2004 07:54 PM
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To get a tone like a B-3 you really need a midi setup to do it justice....You can run your steel thru a Leslie , or a Leslie effect like the Rotosphere, and get the Leslie simulation, but not the actual tone of the organ .... I'm still trying to find a company that will make good working midi pickups for the pedal steel ...The midi interface for pedal steel is something that has been needed for years, ever since the end of the Steelrider by IVL ended back in the 80's ....Maybe one day it will happen !!...Jim |
Jerry Overstreet
Member From: Louisville Ky
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posted 06 May 2004 08:51 PM
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The Doppler effect is only one of the characteristics of the jazz or rock organ. This can be mimicked successfully by many fx units. My Boss unit does this plus has some other characteristics of the Hammond's basic tone. I am happy with this sound. As some of you have mentioned, the midi units are the ultimate tool, but as of now, I don't believe there are any new midi pickups or units available for 10 strings or that I could afford these items even if they were. A Buddy of mine has a GR30 and the sax, piano, and even b@nºø as
well as the organ sounds are great.
My goal is find techniques to help the Pedal Steel react more like an organ. Obviously, due to inherent design differences in the 2 instruments, this is a difficult undertaking, the keyboard being linear in design. We'd need 10 or 20 chromatic tuned strings to even approach that.
I'm well aware of the Junior and these other units that do Rotary. I feel the reason Curly Chalker and the others mentioned were successful at this is that they were aware of the Hammonds other characteristics and playing techni
ques as well as being proficient, to say the least, at playing the Steel Guitar. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to reply to my post. JO
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Raj Natarajan
Member From: Spring, Texas, USA
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posted 07 May 2004 02:08 PM
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Hmm... I have to try my Rotosphere tonight with my Shobud. I never thought of that and I have used my Rotosphere with Voce to get the B3 sound. |
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