------------------
Billy Easton
Casa Grande, AZ
Southwestern Steel Guitar Association

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@comcast.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 9&9=-
-=Emmons D-12 push pull 9&4 (soon to be 9&9)=-
Stereo Steel rig w/Boss GX-700
IVL SteelRider w/JV-880

For me, I am playing more and more with the 7th string raise ( RKL) and 9th string lower ( RKR ) and using both of those changes with the AB , A or B so for me the left side works more to my advantage for the E's..

I have been thinking hard about getting a U-12, and this issue is causing me a lot of concern. I see that it is common on U-12 to have the E changes on the right leg. Carters standard copendant is that way. But GFI's is the opposite. There must be an advantage to one over the other. I just don't know what it is.

You are correct. Most "U" copedents have lowering of the E's (at least) on the right knee. The thinking as I understand it is; since a universal can have upwards of 8 (or more) pedals all on one neck, it is best if one lowers the E's on the right knee. This because most of the pedals are used with the E's lowered. This also affords more room for the left knee to span all pedals.

Since I must have lowering of the E's on my LKR, this prevented me from going Universal for many years; until I found a copedent that would permit fewer pedals. I did and now I love the universal better than the D-10.

As to the E9th, it is true a number of players do raise and lower the E's on the right knee. However, by far the standard being shipped is on the left knee.

Note: some like our beloved forum leader, split them; IE, raise on one knee and lower on the other knee. From a musical standpoint this makes perfect sense. However because of the desire to maximize change combinations, it does not make sense for me at least. So I feel having them on the same knee is better.

I find it easier to have them on the left knee. When I want to hit the E lower and pedal B, I just lean my leg to the left. I play the Day setup. It holds true for the E raise and the A pedal. Since my ankle is bending in the direction of the lever when using those pedals, it's no effort at all to activate the levers. Buddy stated on another thread about the ankle, that when we had no levers on the left knee, we could swing our knees as we played the pedals and as we played the A pedal, the knee would want to swing in the direction of the pedal (to the left on Emmons, Right for Day) Same holds true for the A pedal. This is a natural motion for the knee. Of course, we added levers to the left knee which made us start bending the ankles without swinging the knee.

Edited for my mistake in reading Tim's post. I must have been dyslexic at the time.
------------------
Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 14 May 2004 at 01:21 PM.]

Yes, but I have trouble when using just the A pedal or B pedal alone, so I see as much disadvantage as there is advantage. I have no free play between my knee and levers, so I can't move my leg at all without pulling my E's out of tune. Maybe this is just a problem with my guitar.

------------------
Billy Easton
Casa Grande, AZ
Southwestern Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Billy Easton on 13 May 2004 at 04:33 PM.]

My setup is E raise on RKR, and lower is RKL. this lets me lower my E's and engage both A and B or raise the E's and engage A and B same time.
then I have my D# to D on LKL and lower my G# a whole tone with LKR.

------------------
TW Sneed

[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 13 May 2004 at 05:59 PM.]

------------------
Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Like b0b, I lower on RKL and raise on LKL. There's a whole tone D# to F change that can be used smoothly if they're on opposing knees, but not if they're on the same one. The main reason I lower E's on RKL is that I combine that change with all 8 pedals, plus four of my five left knee levers.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 13 May 2004 at 06:14 PM.]

I fully understand what b0b stated above as at one time I had the E's on opposite knees and really liked it..there was a movement that could be made naturally that cannot be accomplished having them both on 1 knee..but..that being said..I did moved them both over to the left knee.

Larry's comments about being able to accomplish all the changes of the left knee levers with AB, A or B I feel is very accurate. The Steel may need some adjusting if it feels too whacky.

I too use the AB , A or B with either E lever and at first it did seem a bit awkward..but heck..the whole stinkin' Instrument is awkward !

And while we are at it..don't forget that the Bb lever is commonly used with the A Pedals and E raise Lever , extremely awkward at first..but none the less..off of the left knee on my Guitar and still apart of the equation.

There are no rules as to where changes are placed on an Instrument..and there are no rules that state you can't move a knee lever over an inch or two for a better logistical location to fit a players physical attributes.

John Fabian showed me a little Bb lever move with the A pedal and the with the E raise lever..at first I though he was on drugs..he looked at me and just said practice the movement for an hour or two..and I did..and lo and behold..now this once awkward movement is part of my regular programming .

Point is this..the entire Instrument is leaning toward the awkward side..if something is possible but clumsy..it may just mean "More Practice"...

I think it was Buddy who told me that by placing the most changes that can be accomplised on a single knee position is what allows you the flexibility to add or experiment with changes on the opposite knee..No cancelling or redundant changes please. Who would argue with "E" ? Not me..

It is apparant that most playing is done with the AB combo's and the E raise and lower levers so keeping them "All in the Family" so to speak allows the other side of the guitar to be used for the extra's..make sense ? It does to me..

but..there are no rules..

t

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 14 May 2004 at 09:40 AM.]

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

quote:

---

You use them simultaneously? What does that do for you? Seems like raising and lowering would cancel each other or give you some weird semi-tone.

---

Thanks for pointing this out

Carl,

Sorry, I mistakenly responded to your post as if you were concluding in general terms that the positioning of these two levers to one leg would maximize the options for everyone. You were only speaking on personal terms which was the part I missed. Please accept my apology.

So you know, All I said was that I respectfully disagreed with your conclusion of placement. It was not true that the one leg position maximizes the most options for everyone.

To the topic thread, Let me correctly add,
I do agree that it is true that for many, having these changes on one leg does maximize the options for those who choose certain musical avenues. The problem with music is that there are so many roads to take

[This message was edited by Franklin on 15 May 2004 at 10:35 AM.]

The only advantage of placement lies within an individual musicians mind. Players reach placement conclusions from all of their studies towards the musical direction(s) they seek to reach. Some players have the same needs and desires so there are many who agree with one direction of pedal placement over another. That point is moot because there are just as many players who disagree with any players setup.

The creative vision for finding the best path to utilize knee levers with the floor pedals is why almost all steel players use different positions for certain changes.

The only pedal positions that all steel players seem to completely agree on is the ABC floor pedal configuration. Even then, some prefer CBA to ABC, but all agree that BAC, BCA, CAB and ACB would not work as well.

I believe, until it becomes crystal clear for having these, or any other changes, in a universal position to accomplish all the musical ideas individuals desire, then and only then, could there be a solid reason to say one position has an advantage over another for everyone.

I personally hope that never happens. The different pedal setups are key reasons that helps seperate an individuals musical voice from the next guy.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 15 May 2004 at 11:01 AM.]