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Author
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Topic: E-F lever on old Haggard recordings?
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Craig Krause
Member From: California
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posted 27 June 2004 06:44 PM
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The 1960s Merle Haggard recording "Life In Prison" has a repeated (8 beats I think) lick during the steel break that sounds like the E-F knee lever. Two other Haggard recordings from that era appear to have that lick as well, although less prominently: "Prison Band" (in the 2nd verse) and "I'll Leave The Bottle On The Bar" (in a few different places). If it is not the E-F lever what other lever or pedal was used to play these licks? If it is the E-F lever did these 3 recordings come before or after D-I-V-O-R-C-E? Would it have been Ralph Mooney, Norm Hamlet or someone else playing steel on these 3 recordings? Thanks in advance. It is great to have this forum. |
Daryl Stogner
Member From: Yuma, AZ (next to nowhere and north of been there)
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posted 27 June 2004 11:56 PM
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I can't remember what year those songs came out, but if it was late '67 or later, then it would have been Norm playing. (Larry Petree might know more, eh Larry?)Sheez was Norm even using levers back then? hahaha Been so long I can't remember! ------------------
Daryl Stogner
My email: daryl@piknsteel.com
My Website: www.dstogner.com
Dave's Website:www.davestogner.com
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Ernie Renn
Member From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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posted 28 June 2004 10:11 AM
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I'd think it was Ralph Mooney on the tunes you mentioned. (And who really knows what Ralph was using for a tuning in those days.) And it was probably a pedal change on his guitar. Of course it could just be with pedals 2&3 in the one position. (Of course omitting the fifth string.)  ------------------
My best,
Ernie
www.buddyemmons.com[This message was edited by Ernie Renn on 28 June 2004 at 02:22 PM.] |
Dave Burr
Member From: Tyler, TX
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posted 28 June 2004 01:00 PM
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"Life In Prison" was definately Ralph Mooney. I've got the "Untamed Hawk" 5-CD box set (just about everything cut from 62' to 68'). There is a really cool booklet that came with it that details studio credits.I think that "Prison Band" and "I'll Leave the Bottle On The Bar" was Norm's first session with Merle. That session also contained "Sing Me Back Home", Merle's 3rd #1 and the first with Norm at the helm on Steel Guitar. Respectfully,
Dave Burr[This message was edited by Dave Burr on 28 June 2004 at 01:01 PM.] |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 28 June 2004 01:51 PM
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Fill me in folks. Are you saying that Lloyd Green was not the first to use the E-F lever when he recorded "D-I-V-O-R-C-E" by Tammy Wynette?carl |
Craig Krause
Member From: California
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posted 28 June 2004 02:52 PM
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I first heard Life In Prison long after it came out and long after the E-F lever was standard. To me, the lick sounds as if it is raising the 3rd tone of a minor chord by a half step (thereby changing the chord to a major), so I thought it was played in the A pedal and E-F lever position by going on and off the E-F lever. Back in May there was a forum thread discussing the history of the instrument and the first use of the E-F lever was attributed to D-I-V-O-R-C-E about 1968. I wondered whether Life In Prison really used the E-F lever and whether it was recorded before D-I-V-O-R-C-E, so I started this thread. Thanks for all the replies. |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 28 June 2004 03:09 PM
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Carl,
Check http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007456.html
for Lloyd's comments about the F Lever and it's recording history. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 28 June 2004 08:52 PM
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Lloyd Green correctly says that he discovered the F lever and describes how it was first used on hit records in Nashville. "Life In Prison" was released that same year, 1967. I can't seem to find any information about Merle's sessions, though. It's entirely possible that another steeler made the same discovery without hearing Lloyd or Pete.
To me, the F lever has always been an obvious necessity. I needed to get that other inversion of the major chord - the one with the root on the B string. I didn't start playing steel until well after Lloyd's discovery, but I hadn't heard of it before I put an E to F change on my first pedal guitar. Here are the options as I considered them round about 1972: - I could leave the B strings unaltered, lower the E's to D# and lower the G#'s to F#. I quickly discovered that my guitar couldn't do that.
- I could leave the E string unaltered, raise the B's to C and lower the G#'s to G.
- I could leave the G# strings unaltered, raise the B's to C# and raise the E's to F
Since I already had a B to C# pedal, option 3 was the simplest. Also, it was a natural extension of a slant I used a lot on my lap steel. I never thought of Pete Drake's idea (raising all 3 notes), and it's amazing to me to hear how Pete's idea led Lloyd to his discovery. It demonstrates how different mental processes can lead to the same end result.
Option 2 continued to fascinate me, and some of you may remember that I actually had it on pedal zero for a while. The forced contrary motion was too bizarre, so I abandoned the idea.
I don't have "Life In Prison" in my record collection. I'd love to hear the steel part in question.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 28 June 2004 at 09:03 PM.] |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 28 June 2004 09:09 PM
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There is no doubt in my mind that some will believe the following is made up. But I assure you it is true as I stand on this earth. When I bought my first PSG, a 1956 (it may have been 57 not sure) Fender 400 with 6 pedals I noticed a definite need for the E to F change. So I added a crude excuse for a knee lever that would create that change. But as far as I am concerned Lloyd Green is the one that IMO created the E to F knee lever. And the reason that I feel this way; is because LG used it the way it is mostly used today. I used it strictly as a diminished lever. Lloyd as ALWAYS, created beauty, so it was only natural when he added it that it was pure gold. carl |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 28 June 2004 09:13 PM
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Mooney's copedent in Winnie Winston's book (1975) shows 1 knee lever. It raises high E to F and lowers low E to Eb. Of course, everyone had the F lever by then.  |
Dave Burr
Member From: Tyler, TX
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posted 29 June 2004 05:58 AM
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If I'm not mistaken, the booklet I have from the "Untamed Hawk" box set indicates "Life in Prison" was recorded in 66'. I will verify this evening.
Respectfully,
Dave Burr
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John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 29 June 2004 06:29 AM
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In the early sixties, Moon played a Fender1000(8-string). He only used one neck and 4 pedals (no levers)tuned to E9 with G# as the first string.
If anyone really wants to know the pedal setup (which was very simple), I can give it to you. Moon and I were pretty close then and I had my Fender400 setup exactly like his. I played his guitar on several occasions and played some clubs and a couple of sessions with him.
He moved from L.A. to Vegas in 1961 to continue working with Wynn Stewart at the Nashville Nevada Club. |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 29 June 2004 06:43 AM
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I'm pretty sure Moon has had the G#-G change for a long time. That could be the minor-major 3rd tone change you're hearing. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 29 June 2004 09:23 AM
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"For Educational Purposes", someone sent me a WMA file of the song.
http://soundhost.net/b0b/LifeInPrison.wma
The solo starts at about 1:15. It doesn't sound like the F lever to me. I think it's a release of the high G# to G.------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 29 June 2004 09:43 AM
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I'm with b0b. The timbre sounds much more like the high G# string than the E. |
Charles Turpin
Member From: Mexico, Missouri, USA
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posted 06 July 2004 01:07 PM
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I dont know who originaly created the F knee lever. But on the old Merle Haggard stuff There is one lick i use cause Merle had that traditional Lick that ended with a 7th note. It could be done on the guitar or the steel. But even in the song sing me back home, you can use this 7th lick. In the key of G when you are playing the Finger roll on the 8th, fifth and 4th strings on the third fret. End it by going to the 6th fret hold the F knee lever then pick the 4th string and release the knee lever after you have picked it. then finish the lick with the F note on the 5th string on the same fret.
I think that is how who recorded this lick did it but you can also. put the bar on the 7th fret 4th string slide it back to the sixth fret from the seventh fret then pick the fifth string.This will give you the same lick The most important thing i think in any of the old 60s and 70s music was the blocking of the right hand. So block it good before you pick that last note or it will clash
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Terry Sneed
Member From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA
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posted 06 July 2004 03:29 PM
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"In the early sixties, Moon played a Fender1000(8-string)." It's a shame Fender don't still make steel guitars! man, love that tone!! ------------------
84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.
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Tom Olson
Member From: Spokane, WA
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posted 09 July 2004 08:22 PM
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To me (who is not an expert on Mooney), the intro to this song sound a lot like the intro to "Bottle Let Me Down." Also, another interesting thing is that the Byrds had a good version of this song on their "Sweethearts of the Rodeo" album and it had psg on it. In fact, it could have been Lloyd Green playing steel on the Byrds version -- I'm not sure. I saw a post by Mr. Green a while back in which he listed all the songs he played steel on for that album, but I don't remember which ones they were. |
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