I might miss it and put it back, but for what I use, this full tone lower on a knee is kind of cool... good unison stuff and all sorts of other things... I think I can probably just put back the Bb if I tweak the tuning nuts, but I haven't wanted it right now.

I don't have the lever either. I slant the bar the old-timey way. As Al Petty said to me one time, "you're showing your age."

Hey, at 56, I'm just a kid!!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

quote:

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With pedals down it wont work as raises over ride lowers, so now I lower 6 string G# to F# on my vertical

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5th string-E9-B to A
5th String-C6-G to F

Although that Bb on E9 , I use it a lot for a song like Duke Ellington's "Mood Indigo" it is very pretty.
Maybe we can put a half stop on that B to A and get both? But not too easily, I guess...al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

I 'followed the pack' a couple of years back by putting on the 'G#/F# lower' on LKV (split with 'B' pedal) yet I never touch it! There are so many ways to get that 7th that I'm going to lose that pull and substitute the 5th/6th string whole-tone raise (a la C6 pedal 7).

It just shows how many different ways all of us view the neck of our guitars - no 'wrong or right', just a different perception.

It's also available 2 frets up with A & B pedals and the G# to F# Knee Lever spilt to a 1/2 tone lower (G) on different strings (4,5,6,8,10).

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

One that I haven't seen discussed (I'm sure it has been at some point however) is coupling the B-Bb with the 1st string F#-G# raise. This gives a similar harmonized 3rd/6th scale (moving up and down the neck) as you get on 4 and 8 using the A pedal and the E-Eb lever (D lever), but a fifth higher.

[This message was edited by Scott Swartz on 30 August 2004 at 11:21 AM.]

I don't have much trouble with that pull... the 5&10 full tone lower is a bit more travel than the Bb change, but it's not too extreme... I dropped one hole further out from the axle on the pulling cranks, and one hole down on the crank that transfers the pull from the lever to the crossrod (not sure of the term...)

Roger you're missing a ton of very good licks that are easy to play by not using you G# to F# lower split with the B pedal. I've felt that the split thing is main reason Buddy has not gone back to the Blade as his main ax.But you'll have to ask him about that.I know about the new JCH D 10-12.A different story there.

Frank the 6th string G# to F# lower should be a very short throw on any all pull guitar unless you're using a wound string.

I have to admit that part of the problem for me is the poor accessibility of the LKV on an Emmons - if lowering the G# to F# was an important 'pull' for me, I'd pretty soon move it to where I could get it easily!

I also have a problem with that particular 'split' - it refuses to stay in tune for more than a couple of days. I'm happier getting the 7th ('G' at zero fret) by half-raising my LKL2 (1,2 and 7 - F#-G#).

Having said that, I'm not convinced that I'm 'missing' anything. Nobody has more respect for 'E' than I do, yet I'm not sure that I'd want to do everything exactly his way, even if I could.( ) I find that I'm able to accommodate the musical choices that I make without that particular 'change'.

I AM excited at the thought of the 5/6 string whole-tone 'raise', though. I've yet to put it into practice, but it seems that, along with E-Eb, there'd be some great possibilities. I think I want it on pedal 4.

Clearly, as I said earlier, different players have different priorities, which is the central point of this thread.

Roger R.

PS: Lloyd Green doesn't have a G# 'lower' - it obviously works for him

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 31 August 2004 at 08:05 AM.]

I have the LKV on my Carter and never use it for that move. I just back up one fret like John said and there is what I want.

There are too many ways to skin a cat and not get hair in your mouth.

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Charles Tilley ,
ETSGA Events Director
Bullard, Texas
903-825-7580
1994 Carter D-10,1973 MSA D-10 Classic, RV3, Nashville 400 and Evans SE200

Hope I'm not hijacking the thread, but if you have the B-Bb vertical, what would you replace it with? I'm interested in hearing opinions on this.

thanks,
Drew

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Fessenden D-10 8+8 / Magnatone S-8 (E13)

[This message was edited by Drew Howard on 31 August 2004 at 06:40 AM.]

HW

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[This message was edited by Harry Williams on 31 August 2004 at 09:51 AM.]

Paul raises both F#'s to G#'s and has a 1/2 stop on them.That's his take on how this change should sound.I also do this.I like the low F# to G# raise.However most of you seem to find it worthless.I would not want to play without the low F# to G raise but I have and I can.

As for the B's to Bb's change.It's the least used by me also.Heck it's the least used by Buddy Emmons.But it still has it's place.If you must choose I would go with the B's to A's lower.I have a light 1/2 stop on mine so I don't have to.

Now for you guys that tell us how to get the same notes by backing up one fret.While this is true, you lose some of the flow and you're missing a chance to mix it up with the 2nd string whole tone lower.Example Darrel McCall's Pictures Do Not lie.I think this is the name of the tune.Anyway, my point.Do you guys really think Buddy Emmons doesn't know these other positions?Maybe he don't. Or he just thinks having 5 knees looks cool. Remember he had the b's to A lower then went back.Come to think of it.Last I heard he had his guitar rodded for both changes.

Maybe this change doesn't work for you.But to dismiss it as worthless when a player like Buddy has chosen to use it for so long,,, Well maybe you're just missing something.
As for your pedal set-up,I think everyone should pay what works for them....bb

[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 31 August 2004 at 10:29 AM.]

If Buddy had been thinking big like you.Say 25 years ago.Just think where he'd be today.I still like you anyway. ..bb

[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 31 August 2004 at 11:29 AM.]

quote:

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Honestly, I feel this lever lowering the B's a half tone is a waste of space that could be used for more inventive things.

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Bobbe, I'm intrigued. What would those inventive things be? Do tell!

thanks,
Drew

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Fessenden D-10 8+8 / Magnatone S-8 (E13)

If I had an extra pull train tuning the split, I think I would definitely reconsider the whole thing... as it is, though, it was just an experiment to see what dropping B to A was useful for.

More to the point, there are some really interesting effects to be gotten that require it being on a knee, instead of P4 or P0. I've been playing around with the four string, all "A" unison, (possibly with strings four and/or eight added in with strings 3, 5, 6, and 10) releasing/engaging out into the one or four chord alternately... sounds really interesting. Not possible unless the B pedal, and B to A lower lever can be engaged at the same time.

I, too, chose to raise both my F#s to G# in preference - that's MY take on the way it should sound. I've become accomplished at half-pedalling this one, so a feel-stop is less of an issue now. Do I have a bar-hand like Lloyds? Maybe not, but it's not awful, either.

For me, Bs to Bb is a really useful pull, as one can (as someone else has said) get the change without changing positions - you keep the relationship with the chromatic strings, too. I have it on RKL so that I can lower the Es and Bs with the A and B pedals depressed for a useful diminished - not the only diminished by a long way, but a useful one, in my view.

I've recently put the 5th 'lower' to A on my 4th pedal, but the jury's out at present - I need to spend more time with it before it becomes a fixture. Right now, I doubt it.

I appreciate that I don't have a '615' area code, but I'm still capable of intelligent thought on this subject....

RR

RR

Guys if I had to choose between the B to Bb and the B to A I would go with the B to A.It's easy,It works great in the open or pedals down position.It mixs great with the B pedal and I love to mix it with the 9th string lower and of course the 6th string lower.Again a lot of good really easy to play stuff there.I lower both 5 and 10 a whole step but as I stated I have a light 1/2 stop on them.

That being said.I still like the way Buddy Emmons uses the B/s to Bb's on the old Ray Price type country.

It's a little better when I slide some rubber tubing over the lever, but it's still not good. I can't imagine why they haven't figured something better out, either...

quote:

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You could just back up 1 fret with the B pedal and the F lever and get the same change on the same strings (3,4,5,6,8,10).

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That's how I've always done it. and sometimes I just pick strings 3 and 5 with B pedal down and back up 1 fret. I very seldom use my LKV(B to Bb). maybe I could lower B to A on LKV.

Also, you can get a similar sound by just engaging your E to F lever, pick strings 4 and 5 and back up 1 fret.
Terry

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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.

[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 31 August 2004 at 04:19 PM.]

As he says, you get the PF pedal, (I believe splits them now) so that ties in.

The half stop feel can get you the Bb(close enough), so you get a lot of use out of one knee lever, no waste there....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

The B-Bb changes the m7 voicing found 3 frets above open position to a m6 which works as a IV9 chord (in addition the Bpedal can raise the 9th note to a #9.

Or one could go from a dom7th voicing at 5th fret, strings 5 4 3 (E's-Eb + B pedal) E7 to 5th fret (B-Bb + Bpedal) B7#9.

The voicing on strings 5 4 3 (B-Bb + B pedal) is also a 13th voicing w no root (b7 3 13 = 3 b7 #9 )

The same voicing on strings 5 4 3 can also be found by lowering B-A and E's-Eb at the same time.

The B-Bb is a change I use either by itself or in combination w absolutely all other changes on the PSG.

If the LKV is awkward to use in combination with other changes one might not discover the full potential of the B-Bb lever.

There is no problem to play without the B-Bb lower. Personal preferences and playing style might call for other changes.

There is lots of others changes that can work on LKV instead. But first the LKV must be adjusted so it is comfortable to play.

Bengt Erlandsen

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 02 September 2004 at 02:33 AM.]