|
Author
|
Topic: Pedal Steel Manufacturing/Production
|
John Schjolberg
Member From: Golden Valley, Minnesota, USA
|
posted 11 January 2005 11:58 AM
profile
[This message was edited by John Schjolberg on 27 January 2008 at 07:26 PM.] |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
|
posted 11 January 2005 12:12 PM
profile
1.Not enough of a market
2.Too labor intensive
3.Too many returns/too many warrantee problems
4.Too small a profit margin
5. See #4 |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
|
posted 11 January 2005 12:25 PM
profile
Bob is absolutely right.
Actually his #1 is the most important factor.How many guitarists do you know?
How many keyboard players do you know?
How many pedal steel players do you know? Therein lies the answer. Sad but true. There is a very small market with a bunch of small shops making guitars (and a few, like Carter, who make more than a few guitars/month). Nobody is gonna get rich making pedal steel guitars. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps |
Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
|
posted 11 January 2005 12:40 PM
profile
quote:
Wouldn't more people be interested in buying a pedal steel if they were more accessible and perhaps less expensive?
They'd probably be more interested, but then the things would turn into coat/clothes racks similar to weight loss/exercize machines. PSG's have more dignity 
|
Roger Edgington
Member From: San Antonio, Texas USA
|
posted 11 January 2005 01:16 PM
profile
Fender and Gibson have both been there and done that. Fender made a good steel for the times and sold a lot of them but I can't say they were any cheaper. Any one remember what a Fender 1000 cost new and a Sho-Bud at the same time? |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
|
posted 11 January 2005 01:24 PM
profile
Stores, particularly large chains handle "commodities". The standard guitar, amplifiers, gadgets are commodities (large volumes and narrow profit margins).The PSG is not a commodity (yet, maybe never). It is expensive and everyone wants something different so stocking them costs big $, and the sales folk don't know anything about them. What you can find in most "stores" are either used, or the very low end of the instrument. There are a number of specialty shops across the USA that handle PSGs. |
John Schjolberg
Member From: Golden Valley, Minnesota, USA
|
posted 11 January 2005 08:09 PM
profile
[This message was edited by John Schjolberg on 27 January 2008 at 07:26 PM.] |
kyle reid
Member From: Butte,Mt.usa
|
posted 11 January 2005 08:33 PM
profile
If you look at the above reply by, Bob Carlucci, those are the exact reasons that Fender& Gibson got out of the Pedal Steel Business |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
|
posted 11 January 2005 08:46 PM
profile
John-That is a good question . We really don't know. I guess Gibson and Fender just gave up. MSA made and sold thousands of them, probably one reason was they had a great steel player heading it and knew what he was doing. Gibson and CMI were interested in buying MSA at one time. There are now more Pedal Steel Builders than ever before in my reccollection ....so the future looks good....al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ |
tom anderson
Member From: leawood, ks., usa
|
posted 11 January 2005 09:19 PM
profile
I think it has more to do with:
1.the difficulty in learning the instrument.
2. a lack of teachers in local music stores
3. a lack of product in the local stores
4. the instrument being pigonholed with country music
5. few if any high schools, colleges, grad schools offering any instruction or degrees for the steel guitar, even in jazz which should be a natural.
6. country music using steel guitars on radio less & less
7. current teaching aids focusing on tabliture instead of teaching students how to read music.
8. a decline since the 1940's in the popularity of Hawaiian music which was the other popular style for steel guitar.
I agree there are more builders now, & they build a wonderful product, but the instrument probably has as little popularity with the general public as ever. I am always heartened to hear lap, pedal, acoustic steel guitar wherever it pops up, but it's like Emmylou Harris said about Gram Parsons -"Everyone talks about what an influence Gram was, but you never hear his music on the radio." |
Leslie Ehrlich
Member From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
|
posted 12 January 2005 01:01 AM
profile
Tom, I believe #4 is the big reason why pedal steel hasn't caught on with more aspiring musicians. The country stereotype has made the pedal steel a 'fringe' instrument like polka music has done to the accordian and Scottish ethnic music has done to the bagpipes. |
rpetersen
Member From: Tipton, Iowa
|
posted 12 January 2005 04:20 AM
profile
The market thing puzzles me - I too, think that there isn't that many steel players - But, try to buy a new one - most manufacturers have a waiting list??------------------
Ron Petersen &
The Keep'n Tyme Band
Mullen Universal 12 - 1975 Session 400 - Nashville 1000
|
Ed Naylor
Member From: portsmouth.ohio usa
|
posted 12 January 2005 06:07 AM
profile
Tom has it pretty well explained.Facts are, we have 250 Million people in the U.S. and only a few hundred Steels are built each year. The "Regular" guitar can be found at Wal-Mart and everywhere else.Millions are sold but few are ever produced good players.In the 70's NORLIN Co. {Gibson} contacted me wanting to sell my PEDESONIC Guitar.Why should I sell to them for 1/3 retail when I could sell all I built.Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works. |
John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
|
posted 12 January 2005 06:13 AM
profile
Hello John,Steel guitar manufacturing is really production on demand due to the "custom options" demanded by most steel guitarists. Similar to buying a car with the exact options you want.
At present, the only steel guitar that is "mass produced" is the Carter-Starter. Here's another take on Bob's four points:
- It is a small market; however, the market appears to be growing at this time.
- Labor required is basically a function of design for manufacturability. It can be too intensive or it can be reasonable depending on how well you do your "homework" up front.
- Returns and Warrantee costs SHOULD reflected in the price charged for the product. It's called product planning. Most public companies are required to maintain a warrantee reserve fund for future warrantee work.
- Builders are accountable for their margins which are a function of design, controlling costs, and pricing. They have a control of a very large percent of the variables that make up their margins.
Lack of teachers and the decline of popularity of the type of music in which steel guitar is prominently featured are actors on point 1., the market size. One reason for the relatively small size of the steel guitar market no one has yet mentioned, is the lack of standardization in configuration, tunings, and setups. Builders are not the only people who can grow the market. Ask yourself this, "What can I do today to create more interest in or a new player of the steel guitar?" Then go out and do it! ------------------
John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars www.steelguitar.com
www.steelguitarinfo.com
www.carterstarter.com [This message was edited by John Fabian on 12 January 2005 at 06:21 AM.] |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
|
posted 12 January 2005 06:50 AM
profile
quote:
"6. country music using steel guitars on radio less & less"
This was true in the 70s-80s, and may have contributed to sales decline then. I think the opposite is true now. |
Ed Naylor
Member From: portsmouth.ohio usa
|
posted 12 January 2005 06:52 AM
profile
As John said, Standardation is possibly the key. I have referred to this many times in posts I have made in the past.Every Piano I have seen has middle C in the same place. Same concept is true be it a Sax,Flute,or even a Mandolin.The average 'Newbee" is as confused as a "Little boy who drops his chewing gum in the Chicken House".If only we could accept the fact 3/4 will do 99% of the thing yoou want. ED |
John Schjolberg
Member From: Golden Valley, Minnesota, USA
|
posted 12 January 2005 08:20 AM
profile
[This message was edited by John Schjolberg on 27 January 2008 at 07:27 PM.] |
Klaus Caprani
Member From: Copenhagen, Denmark
|
posted 12 January 2005 08:32 AM
profile
quote:
Does it have to be such a mysterious instrument?
Yes! Cause then even I (with my 3/4 years of experience and a few good licks + playing a quite rare brand) can feel like I'm something special  Sorry couldn't leave it ------------------
Klaus Caprani MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com [This message was edited by Klaus Caprani on 12 January 2005 at 08:33 AM.]
|
John Schjolberg
Member From: Golden Valley, Minnesota, USA
|
posted 12 January 2005 08:34 AM
profile
[This message was edited by John Schjolberg on 27 January 2008 at 07:27 PM.] |
Michael Haselman
Member From: St. Paul Park, Minnesota, USA
|
posted 12 January 2005 05:00 PM
profile
Hey John, welcome to the forum from a fellow Minnesotan. I just played at the Golden Valley VFW last Friday. You'll have to stop out sometime and see my Marrs D-10, made by Duane Marrs, one of the pioneers of steel guitar. (Inventor of the LDG, pac-a-seat, among other things)------------------
Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
|
posted 13 January 2005 01:35 AM
profile
one reason for no big demand for new ones,i would say is because so many used old good ones still going strong!!what if we kept our old cars and trucks going,instead of trading??first thing you know,cars and truck sales would come way down!!but they mash load after load of autos every day,i hope hope and pray that never happens to old steels. farris |
James Quackenbush
Member From: Pomona, New York, USA
|
posted 13 January 2005 06:52 AM
profile
Builders are not the only people who can grow the market. Ask yourself this, "What can I do today to create more interest in or a new player of the steel guitar?" Then go out and do it!John makes an EXTREMELY valid point here ....I have mentioned time and time again that we as pedal steel players owe it to the pedal steel market to create more interest ....I've emailed EVERY company that makes midi products to come up with a midi pickup for the pedal steel along the lines of the Steelrider pickup ... We all know how many different sounds you can get out of a pedal steel with a midi pickup.
..The fact that an instrument is VISIBLE on TV is a HUGE plus.... There are many band's who will feature a guitar playing playing a lap steel as of late ...Take a look in some of your music supply magazines, and notice how many more lap steels are available !!... A lot of guys are retired, and could take on a student or two ....If I was good enough to teach as some of you guys are , I would have a couple of students right now !!... Think about how YOU got started ... EDUCATE the public on the pedal steel guitar ....This is one thing that I will commend Carter on is the best site on pedal steel guitar out there !!
Knowlegge is power !!..... Jim |
Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
|
posted 13 January 2005 08:45 AM
profile
James; I agree, but it certainly would be nice if the music video producers could maintain some continuity. The current Gretchen Wilson music video is a case in point. At one point they show what looks like an S-10 being played near the stage edge, next they show a triple decker with the bar on the center neck not even coinciding to the notes, then back to the S-10 shot. Confuse the heck out of a novice. |
Ed Naylor
Member From: portsmouth.ohio usa
|
posted 13 January 2005 09:35 AM
profile
One way to get the word out is to tell more people. Almost every time I go thru a checkout, I ask the clerk-"Do you know what a Steel Guitar is?" 9 out of ten have no idea. I have people contacting me daily wanting to get involved in Steels.Most don't understand what all is involved to be a Mfg. or even a dealer.It is indeed a UNIQUE business. ED |
Mark Vinbury
Member From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
|
posted 13 January 2005 11:33 AM
profile
My 1/2 cent-----I see the price of an entry level steel ($600-700 for somthing that most say you will quickly outgrow)as a significant factor.
You can buy an entry level electric guitar for 1/3 the price and it often plays great and looks like the pro models.
When I started getting interested in steel I saw what I could afford (used S-10 Mavrick etc.) and it didn't look like the gleaming D-10 the pros played.Also the complicated mechanics made me leary of a used instrument.As a result my interest switched over to Lap Steels which I now build and offer as a kit.I feel this is a way into Pedal Steel and provides an entry level price that folks can afford just to "check it out".
As I see it the popularity of this instrument is growing rapidly and consequently so will Pedal Steel.I'm trying to keep my price low and spreading the word.
At some point a Chinese import Pedal Steel will hit with low pricing and the popularity will pick way up.Also I see Robert Randolph type players making it look easy,fun and up front.Five years ago here in RI I couldn't find a Pedal Steel now there is a Magnatone and Fender Lap and a Dekley in the local store.I also see the Internet as vastly increasing the oportunity to "check it out" Somthing is going on! |
Ed Naylor
Member From: portsmouth.ohio usa
|
posted 13 January 2005 11:52 AM
profile
A lot depends on marketing and supply and demand.From a builders side , I deal with probably 150 sources for parts and other items. Some suppliers have a large minimumn purchase amount, and so many parts for Steels are not "Shelf" items.I don't think there will ever be a "Cheap" import Steel.At this stage of the game the market has to be created..Ed |
John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
|
posted 13 January 2005 07:00 PM
profile
quote:
At some point a Chinese import Pedal Steel will hit with low pricing and the popularity will pick way up.
I believe that is backwards. When the instrument becomes popular and the market becomes large enough, that will be the time you'll start to see imports. |
Mark Vinbury
Member From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
|
posted 14 January 2005 08:15 AM
profile
John--I'm not so sure that is the case.I think the market is there.The price just has to come down.
I'm very new in the Steel world and may be way off the mark, but I think many guitarists would buy it as a second instrument if they could justify the expense.
Most I know would love to get there hands on one.They think steel is "cool",they like the sound,they always anticipate the solo if a steel player is on stage.They hold steel players in high regard.They are curious and intrigued by the mystery of it.Some get even more excited when they see Robert Randolph playing funk and blues without hardly touching a pedal or KL.Starts to seem like somthing they could do.
They might even have started on Steel if guitars weren't shoved in their face or if most of the players they saw weren't wearing cowboy hats (no offense intended,just my observation).
I see it as similar to the relationship of the Fender Rhodes to a Hammond B3.One was less expesive and more portable the other was a bear to transport and was full of draw bars, pedals, two keyboards, whirling dervish leslie cabinet etc.Keyboard players wanted both. Only when imports and technology brought the cost, etc. down did organ/synth turn up in every band.
I guess,as with many things,we'll see. |
John Schjolberg
Member From: Golden Valley, Minnesota, USA
|
posted 14 January 2005 08:47 AM
profile
[This message was edited by John Schjolberg on 27 January 2008 at 07:28 PM.] |
John Schjolberg
Member From: Golden Valley, Minnesota, USA
|
posted 14 January 2005 08:49 AM
profile
[This message was edited by John Schjolberg on 27 January 2008 at 07:28 PM.] |
Bob Blair
Member From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
|
posted 14 January 2005 09:20 AM
profile
I have a sense that in fact the price has come down in terms of real cost. There were a lot of new steel players who came on stream in the seventies and the cost of the instrument was a barrier we all had to overcome. I think I paid something like $595.00 Canadian for my first student model psg, an MSA Sidekick which I ordered from a local music store. That was in 1976, and that was a whole lot of money to me back then. My rent on a decidedly decent apartment was 160, so a starter instrument cost well over three months rent. And the 1200 bucks I paid for my first professional axe a year or two later seemed like a small fortune. The $1100.00 or so Canadian that I might have to spend today for a new Carter Starter is substantially less expensive in real terms than was that MSA Sidekick in 1976, and the Starter is a better equipped instrument and (most would agree) better in many ways (having said that I remain forever grateful to Reece and MSA for producing the Sidekick and making psg accessible to people like me). I just don't think it's very realistic to think that the price of pedal steel guitars is going to come down far enough to make a huge difference in terms of new players getting into it. |
Mark Vinbury
Member From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
|
posted 14 January 2005 12:28 PM
profile
What if the same reputable Carter Starter design were mass produced overseas.(It may be for all I know).Just seems to me if it could be inexpensive enough to allow the curious guitar player to take it home to really check it out at least it would have had its chance to attract a player.As it is now you have to shell out $700 plus to mailorder somthing you know little about and is shrouded in mystery and can't be tried out without embarassing yourself at the local store.If they even have one or will let you.Never mind teachers are few and far...Not a situation that is condusive to getting folks into the instrument.Although some may be attracted to these aspects I don't think the average person is.
On the other hand--seems like if we really want to ratchet up sales and enthusiasm for Steel we need to start a program to get women to appreciate how "cool and sexy" the Steel player is. [This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 14 January 2005 at 10:40 PM.] |
John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
|
posted 19 January 2005 05:34 PM
profile
quote:
What if the same reputable Carter Starter design were mass produced overseas.(It may be for all I know)
Carter-Starters have always been and continue to be mass produced in Mesquite, TX USA. Here is a link to our Factory Tour. I suspect a fair portion of the savings you appear to envision by manufacturing it overseas would be eaten up by transportation and importation costs as well as the additional overhead to manage the product sales and distribution. Additionally there would be training, tooling, startup costs etc. Remember that The Carter-Starter MSRP is $895 ($1049 bundled with a volume pedal, bar, picks, and a set of cords) and they are ONLY sold through dealers. There are no direct sales of The Carter-Starter. It is fairly amazing that it is this inexpensive. Obviously, if we were to sell The Carter-Starter directly, the price would be considerably lower. However, The Carter-Starter would NOT enjoy the wide exposure and availability it does from the more than 165 dealerships worldwide (about 250+ stores).
John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars
www.steelguitar.com
www.steelguitarinfo.com
www.carterstarter.com
[This message was edited by John Fabian on 19 January 2005 at 05:39 PM.] |
Mark Vinbury
Member From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
|
posted 22 January 2005 10:44 AM
profile
John-- Thank you for the education on Carter Starters.I'm quite new to this buisness and need some getting up to speed. Please understand I honestly feel that in relation to all steels they are a tremendous bargain and Carter is definately to be commended for keeping the retail price down and for their interest in the beginner and steel guitar players in general.
I guess I just don't understand when a couple years ago I buy a seven string Schecter import guitar just to try it out.It came right out of the catalog for $399.It came with strings, pick,cheap cord,wrenches, 2 extra tremolo springs, etc.The guitar has a flawless dark green metalic finish,The headstock is scarfed on(not that this is necessarily desireable but still is extra woodworking over and above the usual neck and body machining).It has two,"Duncan designed" four wire humbuckers,7 decent tuners,a locking nut,7 string "floyd rose" design tremolo,adjustable truss rod.The neck is excellent both in feel and workmanship,24 frets and fret job is as good or better, in my opinion, than some $1000 guitars.It looked good and played great right out of the box, having been set up by Schecter USA.It was sold to me ,not direct, but by one of their dealers. It held it's value.I sold it this month for $300.Turned out I didn't really like seven string but at least I got a chance to try it out and they sold a guitar.I don't know but seems to me they would encounter the same import,management,training ,etc., expenses you mentioned.The amount of work involved strikes me as similar.
I'll be the first to admit I'm slow on the uptake but what am I missing?
|
John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
|
posted 22 January 2005 08:24 PM
profile
This is what you're missing.Total annual guitar market in units, well over 1,500,000. Total annual STEEL guitar market in units, around 1,200. Do the math. The kind of economies of scale to reduce costs and thus prices require a large scale market that exists for STANDARDIZED products. Unfortunately, pedal steel guitars don't even begin to start the long journey required to reach those levels.
|
The Steel Guitar Forum
