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Author
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Topic: Lowering B's to B flat on E9?
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Grant Johnson
Member From: Nashville TN
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posted 24 March 2005 09:24 AM
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I have this change on my newly acquired PSG, on the RKR. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this change. I did a search and came up with very little. Can anyone give me some guidance on this one?
Thanks! |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
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posted 24 March 2005 09:45 AM
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Grant...I have that very change.I think it's like a 7th of sorts in any open position slid down 2 frets. But if you use it with A&B down and knee lever E-Eb, you get a beautiful full diminished 7th. It's a good change also when playing some chord/melody things, where you need "that note"---you could slant to get it, but the lever is.........well......the lever! FWIW cf |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 09:56 AM
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Grant,
I lost that change when I changed guitars, now I've got to get this one in and have it added, been just working "around" it for to long!!
Larry------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 09:58 AM
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It's a scale note in the IV position.
At the I position, it gives you a II7 chord. So, if you're doing a standard country tune and it goes from the I to the II chord, you can do some pretty cool stuff without moving the bar up two frets. |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
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posted 24 March 2005 10:04 AM
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Grant...
forgot to say that my knees are this:
LKL: E-F LKR: B-A# RKL: E-D#
RKR: 2nd C#-D-D# and a LKV: E-F# So....you would definitely need the E-D# and B-A# levers on different knees to get the Dim7. FWIW cf |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 24 March 2005 11:53 AM
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It seems that most players who have that change (including me) have it on the left knee verticle lever. I use it constantly and couldn't do without it anymore. It's become one of those "unconscious" levers that you go to automatically without even thinking about it. You can use it everywhere. With your F you usually use the A pedal which is the root in that position. Try going to the 3rd fret with the A pedal and F lever engaged which will be another E chord position. Let off the A pedal and engage that lever and listen to what happens. Also when playing in the B6th side of things with the E's lowered it flattens your root in the same way your E to Eb lever does in open E9th. It's used everywhere. I know if I didn't have it I'd have to use a lot more bar movement.....JH in Va.------------------
Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
chas smith
Member From: Encino, CA, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 12:05 PM
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You could just think of it as the same as the 5 pedal, on the C6 neck. It also works well, down 2 frets, preceding the A pedal, as a 1dom7 to the 4chord. |
Bob Kagy
Member From: Lafayette, CO USA
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posted 24 March 2005 02:46 PM
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On fret 6, 2 frets down from the C no pedals position on fret 8 -If you also have the 9th string D to C# change plus the 2nd string D# to C#, you get from bottom to top: E G Bb C D E Bb D G C
3 5 7b 1 9 3 7b 9 5 1 Various combinations of C major, C7th, C9th.
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Skip Edwards
Member From: LA,CA
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posted 24 March 2005 07:55 PM
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Here's a couple of tricks... it's a cool I to II change.... try an open E triad ...strings 3,4,5...now drop the B to Bflat and have your bass player go from E to F#. The 3rd string goes from being the 3rd of the I to the 9th of the II... the 4th string goes from being the root of the I to the 7th of the II, and the 5th string goes from being the 5th of the I to the 3rd of the II. It'll work on any fret, of course- I just used open for an example.... And, since this is basically a movement between 2 chords that are one whole step apart, it'll also work on a 4 to 5 change...but it seems to work better for the I to II change.
Another example along the same line.... play strings 3 & 5 with the first pedal down... you've got a G# and a C#.... now play them both together & let the 1st pedal up...first halfway so you have G# & C... then let it come up the rest of the way...G# & B.... then drop the B... G# & Bflat... have your bass player move from E to F# when you drop the b down....it's the same I to II change, only a little cooler. And again, I just used open strings for ease of explanation.
I've got my vertical lever dropping the B's... I don't use the lower B drop too often, though. It's a cool change to have on your gtr. Have fun with it.
-Skip
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Dave Mudgett
Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 10:08 PM
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I have that change on RKL, most call it the X-lever. Chip is right, the nice lower-voiced dim7 on A+B+Eb+X pedals/levers is worth the price of admission, IMO. I use X more than F#-G (G-lever), so I put the G-lever on LKV instead, but it's a personal choice. I can hit LKV+LKR together, so it's not critical, but it's easier for me to to hit LKR + RKL together.I find the other voicings mentioned useful, such as Jerry's change (A+F, now let off A and engage X). Simply engaging X by itself gives the I-b5 chord, often useful. Another simple but useful change is to grab the IVmajor (A+B), now convert to the IVminor by simply engaging X. This change is not hard to get without X - just go up one fret, disengage A+B and engage Eb lever, but the additional motion and bar movement gives it a different feel. Try A+B+G+X on strings 4-7, now release the G-lever, which gives a nice jazzy I6 to IVdom7 feel. Add the Eb lever to that and the feel changes to a more minor I6 to IV dim7 feel. These kinds of changes help give the E9 neck a more 6th feel. As Jerry mentions, in the B6 approach, this lever is the equivalent of the E-Eb lower, and is an integral part of the Universal sound. I just picked up a Universal guitar, I'm really getting attached to this approach, so I'd have trouble living without the X-lever at this point, even on my S-10s. |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 25 March 2005 04:35 AM
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Hey Grant, back when you could do instrumentals with a band, I did a version of "Gentle on my mind" in which I used this lever a bunch. It was in the key of D at the 5th fret with the A & B pedals engaged. The chords I used were D F#m Bm F#m Em.... When I got to the E minor part it was at the third fret with only the A pedal. You'd just do some banjo type rolls on strings 3,4,& 5 then use the lever to lower the 5th string a half against the raise, let off the pedal and lever, then just use the lever. All the time doing the rolls on only those three strings. It's a nice effect. Hard to explain but try it on your steel and you'll see what I mean unless you have a push/pull 'cause it won't work on those. Using those same moves on strings 3 and 5 gives you that part in the steel solo of "Together Again" where you go to the IV chord and resolve to the V7. Have a good 'un...JH in Va.------------------
Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 25 March 2005 08:09 AM
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I don't have this change, but used alone it is a flatted 5th, which is used commonly in blues, jazz and swing, not so much in country. With the A and B pedals down it should flat the 3rd to give a minor. |
Grant Johnson
Member From: Nashville TN
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posted 25 March 2005 08:10 AM
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Thanks Guys, these are great ideas! I am going to keep this pull for a while. |
CrowBear Schmitt
Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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posted 25 March 2005 10:43 AM
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there was a previous thread about this change calling it the Newman leveryep it's a keeper  [This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 25 March 2005 at 10:44 AM.]
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David Wren
Member From: Placerville, California, USA
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posted 25 March 2005 01:21 PM
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You want a nice example of how sweet this lever can be, listen to Buck Owens' "Together Again", paying attention to Tom Brumley's use of the B string harmonies (although whether or not he used a mechanism to do this, or a slant I can't say). This will get you on your way. Have fun.------------------
Dave-'95CarterS12_E9/B6_7X7-Session500-Wren
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Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 25 March 2005 01:35 PM
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The ride on Together Again has been discussed numerous times on the Forum. It's been said that Tom did not have this lever. He (you can do it, too) achieved the tones by playing strings 3 and 5, no pedals, and dropping back one fret and raising the 3rd string with the "A" pedal. If you want to get a three note grip, you can raise the 4th string with a lever at the same time.Here's more good reading on this lever: Click Here Lee, from South Texas |
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