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Author
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Topic: BUD Changer problem on FULL tone lower
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Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 06:43 PM
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NEVER with MSA or Carter, but always with Sho Bud.. I always seem to have problems with full tone lowers on Buds.. It will lower the 2nd string a full tone [just barely] in 2 steps but there is no reserve. I use a 015 there... It would probably be better with a 016 ,but that seems awful heavy for a 2nd string, no?? Also, my regular copedent drops string 3 a full tone on pedal 4... The Bud won't drop the 3 string any lower than a half tone.... There is a Super Pro changer in this steel by the way. Anyone else have this problem with Buds??.. I had to modify my Pro III to get it to drop certain strings a full tone... I remember I took the changer out, took it to a machine shop and had the back of the changer fingers milled.. It worked[again,just barely,with NO reserve],but I don't feel like going through that again if I can help it... any suggestions?? bob |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 06:55 PM
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HA HA HA got took again i guess!!!! |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 07:25 PM
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Farris.. Thank you for the very informative and helpful answer.. Your mature demeanor is well appreciated..... Actually, I would like to see if I can get this 3rd to pull down a full tone...Has anyone done this on a Bud without resorting to pulling and modifying the changer?? ... bob |
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 07:29 PM
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Is this the guitar that's for sale? |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 07:32 PM
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STEPHEN, what can i say!!! buyer beware. |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 07:39 PM
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Yes Stephen.. it most likely will be sold, when I can get someone to come play it and look it over... I would not want someone to be unhappy with it..However my friend, in the mean time I would like to get my complete copedent on the steel so I can make sure the guitar is as perfect as I can get it mechanically. That why I'm looking for some help from one of our friends who may be a little more knowledgable than I am on Bud mechanisms.. bob |
Clyde Lane
Member From: Glasgow, Kentucky, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 07:51 PM
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Bob I lower 2, 5, 6 and 10 a full tone on my LDG with the same changer. Did you remove the raise helper springs?Clyde |
jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 22 April 2005 07:54 PM
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Bob, go with lower gauge strings on those ones you want to lower a full step, not higher gauge strings, also increase your stopping points at the bellcrank end, you'll get it to work |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 07:59 PM
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Clyde... Really the major problem is # 3.. # 2 is there,its just got no reserve adjustment. I did not yet try removing the raise return spring on #3... I tried pushing the #3 lower finger all the way in from the endplate.. that is full travel and it was not even close to a full tone.. Do you think I would get more travel be taking the spring off?? I know about the removal of a spring and I was thinking about it as my next step... I may also try going to an .012... thanks for the suggestion Clyde,, it is appreciated!!!! bob |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 08:27 PM
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Bob. I'd try a 16. Especially on a 24" scale, if you're getting there with no slack to spare, a 16 would work with a more acceptable margin.
18s are used on the B to C# all the time on 24"s and a whole tone up on a 16 for Eb to C# is about the same math give or take.I've never tried to lower a G#, as they're a little more critical, and I raise my F#s to G# on a half step. I have always used .010s, as .011s break for me, but some do use 12s. Mind your eyes while winding though. Hang in there.  EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 22 April 2005 at 08:30 PM.] |
Leon Roberts
Member From: Tallahassee,FL USA
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posted 22 April 2005 08:39 PM
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Bob, The correction for this problem was explained in detail by Winnie Winston in Tom Bradshaw’s Steel Guitarist Magazine No 5. It’s the one with Ralph Mooney on the cover. If you don’t have a copy, I can scan it and email it to you. It explains the problem and how to correct it. It was put in the magazine to cover the 2nd string whole tone lowering problem but the same principles apply for the 3rd string whole tone lower. I might add that lowering a .011 a whole tone is a stretch for a later model Sho-Bud changer even with Winnie’s instructions. Email me if you want me to send the directions.
Leon
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Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 08:47 PM
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Eric,,, I DO think you are correct, I'm pretty sure the 016 would work.. I CAN get the full tone drop in 2 steps,but there is a REAL long throw to get it and it just barely makes it....The 016 would shorten the throw, and I would have a little "headroom"... the 3rd string full tone[pedal 4] is going to be harder... Not sure an old Bud changer can make it,[maybe Duane or Jeff have some cool ideas!!] Some brands changers can, some can't... It's my own fault for having a retarded copedent... that 3rd lower has long been a headache for me on a lot of different brand steels... Eric,, thanks for the reply!! bob |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 09:45 PM
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Great Leon.. I can use that info,,, Like Eric said, I think the 2nd string @ 016 will shorten the throw,,, The 3rd will be a problem,.. I DID have it on my PRO III, but I had to jump through hoops to get it!!!.. Thats one reason I always have this love hate/ thing with Buds...LOVE the sound and looks.. they place smooth when they are set up correctly, but man, I ALWAYS have headaches trying to get all my full step lowers in order.. and I lower LOTS of stuff!!.. In any case, I sure would appreciate that article!! bob |
Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 22 April 2005 10:08 PM
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Bob, forgive me for asking, but I'm just wondering why you're putting this setup on it... I saw you said you wanted to make sure it all worked OK before you sell it, so you're saying that all strings should be capable of a whole-tone drop, and you want to be sure they will, just to know it's working correctly, even though just about nobody else drops the 3rd string a whole tone...., and you're going to sell it with this setup on it, or then change it all back to the more-or-less standard Emmons or Day setup after all this, or what?[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 22 April 2005 at 10:11 PM.] |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 22 April 2005 10:31 PM
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Jim.. Good question that I'm not sure how to answer.. I guess its just easier for me to play with my copedent of 28 years... It[the Pro I] still feels like a "stranger"... I would probably set it back up to a "normal" copedent, when it sells as per the buyers desire,but don't forget, MOST E9 steels with more than 3 pedals are not "normal".. I am just used to having that full tone drop on pedal 4, and I feel like a fish on blacktop without it.The standard 3 pedals are working very nicely on this guitar,but I am dropping the 3rd a half instead of whole tone and it frustrates me... I get annoyed, and run over to my Carter and it feels like an old friend... The Bud with its longer throws, and less precise mechanism, is just a little more challenging to play... i LOVE old Buds,,, BUT,, compared to other brands,they seem to "fight" me just a little... Does that make any sense???... This is my 3rd Pro model Bud... I always get PO'd at them and sell them,even though they look and sound great.... I am really starting to come to the realization, that I really do prefer more modern guitar designs... Maybe I'm crazy, but they seem to "argue" less.. The Bud plays very well now Jim,... I'll bet most Sho Bud guys would love it.. I just want it to do what I want... not what IT wants... Thats why when I sell it, I will only sell it here...NOT shipped.. It needs to be played for hours, to make certain it is exactly what the buyer wants... I know that because of this goofy notion of mine, it may be a long time before it sells ... I dunno, I'm starting to get used top the way it looks anyway...all "woody" and vintage"... anyway Jim,I hope that helps answer your question.
Don't forget Jim,, I am a scatter head that NEVER knows what he wants, and when I DO have what I want, I sell it usually for something I DON't want!!!... I think I need to slapped around... that might straighten me out bob |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 22 April 2005 11:18 PM
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I had the same problem on my ZB with the sixth string, a few years back. I always use a wound sixth, and when I got the steel it was set up for a plain sixth, which in my opinion is too unstable to stay in tune.
I drop the sixth a whole tone, and the ZB changer, because of the way the fingers are riveted together, would foul up before a whole tone drop was achieved.
My solution was quite complicated, but may be possible on a Shobud.
I realised that the raise part of the finger took the string up in pitch much further than it needed to go, ie there was travel there that I could use if I could access it.
Basically, I put a spring-loaded rod on the raise finger that held it in a partially raised position. The finger still had enough raise travel to get the usual half-tone raise.
Then I rigged the knee lever that lowered the sixth string so that it pushed the partially raised raise finger back to its unactivated position, at the same time it pulled the lowering part of the finger in the normal manner.
This gave an ample amount of changer movement to lower a wound sixth.
R B
Edited for spelling[This message was edited by richard burton on 22 April 2005 at 11:23 PM.] |
Richard Sinkler
Member From: Fremont, California
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posted 23 April 2005 02:54 AM
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Sorry I don't have any solution to your problem, but I am curious as to how you use this change. Does the string return to pitch after lowering it (the 3rd string) a whole tone? ------------------
Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400
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David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 23 April 2005 04:07 AM
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Bob, Ricky Davis is the guy for this question,
he has helped my with a lot of Bud questions.The short scales are MUCH more finicky for string gauge. IF your going to sell it shortly, just put on a standard copedent and be done with it. |
Chuck McGill
Member From: Jackson, Tn
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posted 23 April 2005 04:42 AM
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Bob I think I had the same problem on my Super Pro and Mr. Davis advised to remove the
return spring on that finger. There were others that gave me the same advise. You might search the archives for the post.
Good Luck |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 23 April 2005 05:58 AM
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Guys.. I am aware of the spring removal. I will try it soon.. Like I said, I did push the finger in from the endplate with a screwdriver which will usually give all the pull you are going to get,,and you will get full finger travel.. It did not come close to a full tone ... I will try removing the spring, and see what happens.Haven't tried it yet on this guitar,but I know it didn't work on my PRO III. Richard.. My copedent is all screwed up.. I use an E on my second string,and use pedal 4 G#-F# in conjunction with it constantly.. Yes, on guitars where the changer will make the pull I have never had a problem returning to pitch. It is a VERY long pedal throw on any guitar, and has a nice elongated "whine" to the sound. up high on the fretboard, it is quite beautiful sounding. I have the 1st string, F# to G# pull, and can get some of the effect, but its just not the same... I am just so used to the pedal being there.... Its no big deal really,,,my Carter does it without breaking a sweat,and that IS my #1 guitar...but it just bugs me and I get into this "obsessive compulsive" groove and WANT that change there even if I am going to sell the guitar... As I stated a few replies back, I should be slapped! It might set my brain right side up instead of laying on its side in a fog.... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 23 April 2005 at 06:00 AM.] |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 23 April 2005 11:06 AM
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Bob-Interesting that you lower your 3rd string G# to F#. I have always wanted to do that on my E6 tuning, but didnt think it was physically possible and still be in tune , especially as I raise that same string to A also.
Have you done it on any of your guitars? How did it work? Amazing if you do it, that is a long pull.....al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 23 April 2005 11:50 AM
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Al I have done it on many guitars... The Carter NAILS it.. so did all my MSA guitars. Sho Buds can't seem to get it, although I owned a PRO III that did it barely, after having the back of the changer machined for clearance.. It is a NICE change!! The old MSA guitars have NO problem pulling the 3rd down, and it has that looong pedal dropping sound.. its really sweet.. Just wish it was a little easier to get on Buds. It has always returned true on ANY guitar I have used it on, including the PRO III... NO increase in breakage from what I can determine. I wish there were a way I could record a few licks with that pedal and post them..... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 23 April 2005 at 11:54 AM.] |
Scott Hay
Member From: El Cerrito, California, USA
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posted 23 April 2005 05:16 PM
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I say try the helper spring - that was a good suggestion. I had that lowering problem on my Sho Bud Pro-1 double raise, single lower changer with my E string. I called Jeff and Duane at Marrs Music to inquire and they told me to take off the helper spring or to try and find one with less tension and switch them from another changer before I started replacing parts etc. I just unhooked it from one side and left it there. That worked good for me. good luck |
Richard Sinkler
Member From: Fremont, California
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posted 23 April 2005 09:07 PM
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But if he manually pushed the changer finger to it's maximum travel and still can't make the whole tone drop, removing the spring shouldn't make a difference. ------------------
Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400
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Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 24 April 2005 04:53 AM
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Correct Richard.. Thats the first thing I did, and it was still far short of where it need to be...I suppose removing the spring will just confirm the fact, that this particular guitar won't make this change... It does every other change I use... but not having this one stupid pull that no one else uses really bugs me!! Its not that big a deal,really.... bob |
jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 24 April 2005 01:02 PM
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Bob, did you try different string gauges yet, did they get you closer to the desired note? If you have a .014 on the fourth, tune that down to E flat and see if you can lower down to C sharp as a test, on an Emmons I needed a longer pull and added and extension to the length of the puller on the bellcrank shaft....oops forgot you did a manual lower at the changer without the pedal |
David Martin
Member From: Kingsport, TN 37663 USA
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posted 24 April 2005 06:05 PM
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I have a Super Pro with the same problem ( the 5th would'nt lower a whole tone). I corrected it by adding an extra rod on the raise to pull the finger to a slight raise position allowing the the lower to happen without hitting the raise finger. It works like a compensator and it is tuneable. |
Leon Roberts
Member From: Tallahassee,FL USA
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posted 25 April 2005 02:35 PM
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Here is the information for the correct way to modify the SuperPro type changers to insure a whole tone lower on plain strings. I can't swear that an .011 will lower from a G# to a F# but I can assure you that it won't without this modifacation. I hope Winnie Winston is okay with me posting this.
Leon   [This message was edited by Leon Roberts on 25 April 2005 at 02:52 PM.] |
Leon Roberts
Member From: Tallahassee,FL USA
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posted 25 April 2005 02:54 PM
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How about helping again b0b? |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 26 April 2005 09:21 PM
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I know of this mod.. I did it on my proIII which had a different design finger... This Super Pro finger has almost NO metal where it shows to cut... I am not going to ruin the finger trying it... I really don't think this changer will make that 3rd string full tone drop even with this mod to be honest... I found other problems on the 2nd string finger that I repaired... I needed to polish all sliding surfaces on the finger and remove tiny oxidation spots that were causing the finger not to fully retract when the 2nd string lever was used. It is AMAZING how just a teeny tiny rough spot in the finger can cause HUGE headaches!!...It is MUCH better now.. I have the Bud playing great now,but have given up on the pedal 4/ 3rd string down full.. I now use it to drop both G# down a half... gives a nice minor chord and is useful for bluesy single string stuff. It kind of bothers me that Buds have trouble with certain lowers, but I've known that for years... I'll live with it for a while and see what happens.. Its no big deal.. I'll adjust!! bob |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 26 April 2005 10:55 PM
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Bob, just out of interest, how much raise movement do you have on the third?
If you physically push the raise as far as it will go, will it go at least a full tone raise?
If so, a simple pull-release spring-loaded type mechanism rigged up to the pedal could be utilised to hold the raise element of the finger in a partially raised position, thus allowing a further raising motion to get a half-tone raise by using pedal B, and a full tone drop when using pedal 4.
R B |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 27 April 2005 04:30 AM
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Richard.. I am sure there would be enough travel in the changer to do what you suggest. I have heard other guys discuss similar rigs in the past. I am not sure I could devise something on my own... I'm not that bright!! If anyone is familiar with the changer design, and has a good concept of how to accomplish what Richard suggested, let me know. I just can't envision how to go about it. It would seem to be a "balancing act" of some kind. I am not sure I would want to do it if Pedal B is going to stiffen up or something... any ideas?? bob |
Clyde Lane
Member From: Glasgow, Kentucky, USA
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posted 27 April 2005 04:56 AM
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Bob do you have the original Super Pro fingers or Marrs replacement fingers. The original fingers have the slot to hold the string end.Clyde |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 27 April 2005 07:00 AM
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Clyde,, they are original!!.. Now you have me thinking!!!!... Maybe a MARRS finger would make the pull!!!!???bob |
Clyde Lane
Member From: Glasgow, Kentucky, USA
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posted 27 April 2005 01:43 PM
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Bob, if the original finger is worn where the sweeper arm hits it on the bottom it will not lower all the way. It will also be impossible to keep the pedal in tune.I had Marrs fingers put in my LDG a few years ago and it plays great. There is quite a bit of difference in tone. I think the original fingers are brighter than the Marrs, but the Marrs is a more vintage Sho-Bud sound. Good Luck
Clyde |
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