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Author
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Topic: Dream 9x9 copedant
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John McGann
Member From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
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posted 01 June 2005 06:31 AM
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Disclaimer: Lloyd Green can get more music out of one string and no pedals in two seconds that I will in a month with 68 pedals and levers, etc./ It's either you can play or can't play/ etc.*whew* THAT out of the way so no one has to remind me  I am interested to see what folks would use as a realistic setup for 9 x 9, considering you'd want to be able to play modern jazz on C6th and have maximum flexibility on E9th. ------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...
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Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 01 June 2005 06:47 AM
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"MODERN jazz on the C6th"...????If you wanted to play jazz tonality up to maybe 1953 or so then C6 would be fine, but for "modern" jazz then you are talking Coltrane up to out free stuff, you might want to explore some tuning/set up variations to get you the sound of 4ths and 5ths and a lot more disonant chord voicings. You would probably need the 9/9 all for your jazz neck!! Have fun and remember the "Modern" jazz motto-----"When in doubt...Go Out!!" |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 01 June 2005 07:46 AM
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John ..take a deep breath...
your statement.."It's either you can play or can't play/ etc." Yes of course we all have immense respect and appreciation for Loyd, he is clearly at top of the heep in talent and ability... But the amount of Knee Levers or Pedals, or which pulls etc...you have on your Steel has nothing do do with whether or not you can play or not. It's how you use them and why use use them. But I would certainly agree that seeing a master such as Loyd play with a minimal setup sure makes you scratch your head..but then again seeing those other masters with extensive configurations play makes me scratch my head too ! I' thinking 9+9 is becoming fairly standard these days. I would search the LINKS and see what folks are doing. Whether it applys to modern Jazz or not only you can decide.. I think it would be more appropriate to configure the Steel so that you can play "OUTSIDE" of the scales without to much motion or energy would be the ticket.
t [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 June 2005 at 08:00 AM.] |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 01 June 2005 08:10 AM
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A lot of "sound bites" come to mind ... less is more ... bigger is better ... you don't need to play all the notes in the chord ... to which I would add you don't have to play what you do have, but you sure can't play what you don't have. That is why I came up with the 13 series tuning structure on the so called Universal.It uses an E9/B6 base, and with two pedals provides a two octave stacked thirds tuning in both Major and Minor form (EM13 & Em13 + E13 for openers). Parse this and you have all the 3,4,5,6,7 tone chords to harmonize the scale(s). To boot, you have all the C6/F9 tuning sounds available plus a four tone (repeated in two octaves) chord collection in the A6 (P1P2) position. This is all on one neck. Details if interested. I decided that performing was not what I liked to do best back when Berk' was still Schil'(music by slide rule). |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 01 June 2005 08:36 AM
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John, you might as well figure it out. It isn't as though there is some precedent in place. Basically, I guess you want ready access to tight intervals like 2nds and the suspended 4ths. Assuming you don't want to give up the stacked thirds inherent in a normal C6 tuning that work so well for traditional jazz harmony (minor7, m7b5, altered dominants, 13th chords, etc.), then the issue is to get those other intervals. One way is to raise your 6th string from E->F. That gives you a tight G,F interval on strings 5,6 and the suspended 4th interval between strings 3,6. Aother is to lower string 6 from E->D. That gives you a tight D,C interval on strings 6,7. Another is to lower string 5 from G->F. This gives you a suspended 4th interval. The idea is basically to break up the thirds and create other intervals. One thing to realize is that this is still anchored in the thirds architecture of the C6 so it requires more work to get to than if the tuning was already built on those intervals. If you want to change the basic tuning, you might add a D note between the C and E to get the tight C,D and D,E intervals. You might add an F note to get the F,G interval and suspended 4th interval. Any way, those are some thoughts.------------------
Jeff's Jazz
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David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 01 June 2005 08:45 AM
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What Jeff says is right on.I also think the most advanced MODERN take on the possibilities
will likely be Ed's new Monster machine. Get on his mailing list about it, just drop him a line. One of his machines is high on my list of steels.... 7 levers and 6 pedals for C6 will get you pretty well along in most chord progressions. Thre trick I am finding is to figure out
YOUR personal progressions of habit.
This will indicate whch way to put the levers. Some combinations or leg shifts your will want to go from a LOT,
and others you will rarely need to cross from one to the other.
They come and go from different places,
but not one to the other. I have redone my copedent 3 times with that in mind, and expect another round too.
And I am going to an S-14 with the same thinking.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 01 June 2005 at 10:50 AM.] |
John McGann
Member From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
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posted 01 June 2005 08:46 AM
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Bill- true!Tony- I do have a good database which i am studying but trying to confuse myself as much as possible Ed- would be happy to have a look. Jeff- Thanks for your thoughts, assumptions are correct, and I am considering everything you mentioned. ------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...
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Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 01 June 2005 09:42 AM
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I've just taken off my A to Ab lower (on both strings) and now I'm raising 6th (E to F) and raising 10 (C to D). Buck Reid suggested this pull to me about three years ago (I'd just started on C6 then) but I didn't appreciate it's worth until now. (That'll teach me to disregard free advice from a player of such calibre  .....)It tightens up those intervals and opens a lot of options - I'm really enjoying it! I had to choose, as my guitar is an '8+8', and I was hardly ever using that 'A - lower'; my next treat may well be a vertical on the back neck to give me that 'D' in the middle. RR
PS: Thanks to Bud Vanderberg who got his hands dirty doing the actual work ![This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 01 June 2005 at 09:44 AM.] |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 01 June 2005 09:53 AM
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I already have my "dream" copedent. I guess it's technically just 5x5, but you can think of it as 10x10:
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 01 June 2005 03:40 PM
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John; I should have looked before I offered ... in checking back I find that you were on the Email list for the CHORD LOCATION
multipart Excel sends. That covers the PSTL C69 tuning and setup plus some. The PSTL C69 is what is on the BEAST.It all started as a 14 string 25" scale with 4P and 5L, but ready to be expanded to 9 & 7 with parts and an allen wrench. I had a batch built by Sierra, using the SESSION series hardware. Thanks for the comments DD, and happy Thailand. |
Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 02 June 2005 01:30 AM
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My favorite subject! I'm assuming John meant a D10 w/ clustered KL's.
Besides what Jeff said...i.e. raising the E's to F on C6 and having the D in the middle somewhere (I myself raise the middle C to D on a pedal), I think the key to playing the modern jazz, full voiced keyboard-like styles of Bill Evans and Herbie Hancock etc. is to re-think the BASS end of C6. Notice what Curly Chaulker did on his low strings. Rather than do away with the standard bottom strings like he did, I have a pedal between the traditional 7th and 8th(boowah), that lowers the low F to D and the low C to A. This may seem redundant to some, since it's right next to the "boowah" with it's similar change on the low string....but it's really not. It opens up a world of compound chords just like I would voice on piano or guitar. For me, it turns the standard C6 into more what Bill Hatcher is talking about. I don't know how to post my copedant here, but I'll email it to anyone who might be interested. |
Drew Howard
Member From: Mason, MI, U.S.A.
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posted 02 June 2005 03:46 PM
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Here's the 8 + 8 tuning on my Fessy.
< ^ > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 < ^ > < >
F# G#
D# D/C#
G# A
E F Eb F#
B Bb C# C# A
G# A F#
F#
E F Eb
D C#
B Bb C#
D
E F
C D B C#
A B B Ab Bb
G F# F
E Eb
C C#
A
F B F# E
C D A
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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3 |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 02 June 2005 10:38 PM
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Rick send me your copedent,
I will try to post it. I had it some where...
it is interesting if memory servres.But send it quick if you do I am on a train tomorrow evening |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 04 June 2005 04:21 AM
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Ok here is Rick's copedent,
but it is in a pdf file you need Adobe Acrobat Reader to see it. http://worldserver4.oleane.com/canardplus/images/D12-RSchmidt.pdf [This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 June 2005 at 04:22 AM.] |
Wayne Cox
Member From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA
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posted 11 June 2005 08:35 AM
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Over the last 3 years I've done a lot more gigs playing non-pedal steel. Since I am no Jerry Byrd,with slants,this no-pedal playing has caused me to rethink basic tunings, (including pedal tunings). I realize that none of us are comfortable in throwing away years of trained reflex actions and chord pocket patterns we have worked so hard on for so long,but maybe the end justifies the means. Zane Beck discovered the "perfect tuning/pedal setup", years ago. In more recent years,others like Tom Morrel & Johnny Cox have discovered the universal nature inherent in 13th tunings. I have discovered the same thing,with my own experimenting. My own version of E13th is a bit different from Zane's,Tom's,& Johnny's,but here is just a little tidbit of it(continued).
~~W.C.~~ |
Wayne Cox
Member From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA
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posted 11 June 2005 09:06 AM
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OK, first of all,my basic tuning (lo to hi):
EBDEF#G#BC#ED#. The similarities between this and E9 should be readily apparent. The high 3rd (G#) is gone,as is the high F#. New is the sixth (C#). The first big plus is that you still have a complete "sixth" tuning to work with. I say "complete" because the 5613 inversion is still there working out of a B6 tuning mode,even though the G# is gone. The EM7th is still intact,as is the E9th. E9th pedals A & B will work beautifully with this tuning,as will the basic E9th knee levers. You want some "Night Life" style chords that are wide spread inversions...just lower the 9th string (B) to a G# and adjust your thinking to B6 mode again. Another plus is that you have exactly the same range of notes as a standard guitar. Now,with a knee lever,lower the the middle F# note to an "E" and you have the much loved Sacred Steelers tuning at your fingertips. Maybe thats enough bits and pieces of what I am doing nowadays to get the point across. Maybe,at some point in the future,I'll present a more complete and better organized presentation of this concept,but for now the bottom line is: you don't really need 9 & 9! As Zane proved,years ago,all you really NEED is 4 pedals and 5 levers! If you play a D-10, keep your favorite tuning on one neck and try something different on the other!
~~W.C.~~ [This message was edited by Wayne Cox on 11 June 2005 at 09:16 AM.] |
Wayne Cox
Member From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA
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posted 11 June 2005 09:24 AM
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One more thought;I haven't tried this but BOBBE SEYMORE's "Z Lever" concept might be applied to the 13th tuning concept and reduce the need for levers even further. I decided to post this in 3 parts because my computer thinks that I am idle and wants to boot me off the net.
~~W.C.~~ |
Buck Dilly
Member From: Branchville, NJ, USA
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posted 11 June 2005 11:23 AM
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I want to ditto what Jeff has suggested. I added a Low E to F raise on LKV. This offers MANY new possibilities. On pedal 9 I added "middle" C raise to D, which provides great melodic and chordal possibilitites. On my D-12 I added a low C to D raise; This may seem redundant, but with the other two changes I can get quite a few "modern" chords. (Just for the record, I use B6 on the back neck, but I communicate in key of C.) |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 11 June 2005 11:24 AM
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Wayne-Your tuning very closely resembles what I call the Real Universal and with that C# up in there gives it a whole new ball game and still keep all the E9 characteristics.
I have a E6-E13 similiar type tuning and I like it for the same reasons you mentioned in your post. Bobbe Seymour's Z pedals will work good as you say get the bottom D to a C# opens up a whole new 6th possibilities.
I think it works better with 11 strings, as Zane Beck had. So you can use an Extended E9 set of strings and they will work. That F# to E is a good pull that changes a lot of things. Middle B to A is a good one to put on, alone with G# to F#. ...al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ |
Wayne Cox
Member From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA
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posted 12 June 2005 05:14 PM
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AL MARCUS,thanks for you comments! Some of your own ideas contributed heavily to my devising this tuning. I just e-mailed this comment to a fellow forumite,"The weird thing is that I don't particularly like this tuning;it just works so well that I keep coming back to it." One of the big advantages is one which you brought out some time ago...it is still basically an E tuning so all the E9th players don't have to re-learn all their basic neck positions. Maintaining a sense of familiararity (what a word)is almost essential when experimenting with new tuning concepts. See there,AL,I really do listen to you!
~~W.C.~~ |
Wayne Cox
Member From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA
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posted 12 June 2005 05:34 PM
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At this point I guess I should post an apology to JOHN MCGANN for leading his thread a bit off topic. His original post was clearly aimed at E9th & C6th players. Sorry,JOHN! To better answer your question; if I were going to stay with a more "standard" setup, I would add the E to F pull on the C6th as a vertical lever pull. I'm referring to the 6th string raise. On E9th,I would re-institute the old F# to G and G# split raise. At one time this was a standard pull on a lever,and I think it should be again. Then,pedal 4 should be an E9th pedal which transforms the E9th into an A6th! Of course,those of us who have the "Expanded E9th" setup already have that on pedals A & B (1 & 2). JMHO
~~W.C.~~[This message was edited by Wayne Cox on 12 June 2005 at 05:41 PM.] |
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