For many years I've been an ET tuner. It was fast and simple, and best of all, my guitar really blended well with the instruments played by a band member that doubled on guitar and keyboard. Well, he left the band quite a few years ago and I just kept on tuning to ET.

The last three dances I've played at, I've tuned the thirds down about 8 cents. I'll admit that the guitar sounded great by itself, at home; however, I wasn't sure how things would go on the bandstand. Well, I couldn't be more pleased. I think my guitar blended much more nicely, with the flatted thirds.

Here is what I ended up with:

Pedals up: E's and B's tuned to 441. G#'s tuned to 439.

Pedals down: E's and A's tuned to 439. C#'s tuned to 437.

F#'s tuned to 440.

E to F lever tuned to 436.

Tuning this way kept my thirds about 8 cents flat. The F#'s seemed to blend well with both the B's and the C#'s.

ET tuning made a lot of sense to me when I first heard about it (from Mikey Douchette). I tried it and it worked nicely, but again, I was playing with a guitar/keyboard player and my flatted thirds always clashed with his instruments. With ET tuning the problem went away. Like I said, he doesn't play in our band any more, but I just kept on tuning ET because it was easy.

Once again, I'm sorry Eric, but I've left your team, even though your comments that favor ET tuning do make a lot of sense.

Besides there are a lot of sunspots this time of year, and dogs sometimes bite their human companions during the solstice period.

Everybody slips in one way or another.

You'll be back.

I still believe that it's more in how you PLAY than how you TUNE.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

I don't know anything about tuning labels or definitions, and I know the objections to tuning by ear, that it can't be trusted, but if I can't tune successfully by my ear then I need to find another hobby.

Musicians survived for eons without electronic tuners!

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www.genejones.com
The Road Traveled "From Then 'til Now"

I like to have a tuner handy for when I break a string during a show - then I can 'silently' get the new string in the 'ball park' and be ready to play with a minimum of delay.

RR

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 04 July 2005 at 10:56 AM.]

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Is it possible to tune 100% ET without a tuner? (and if so, how?).

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Absent ears, I guess a guy could do it by feeling vibrations with one's hand or watching the waves subside in a beer glass..

I've found again and again when I test it that I tune thirds to ET without a tuner. I hear a beatless third as being flat and dead sounding. (The minor thirds sound sharp.)

Beatless fifths I find less so, but the beats on them is about 2 per second as opposed to four of more I find with a nice bright sounding ET thirds.

"Ear training", or just plain "Counting to Zero"?

Mostly I think it's just the latter.

So, this "Beatless" third, when it's not played with it's complimenting root and fifth..

Since it is not "ear training", and it is evidently "beat counting", doesn't it matter that it's up to twice the value off when it becomes a non-third of another chord if it's say a minor third of another chord? That's about two bits off. But I guess it doesn't matter because single notes have "no beats". Hey, I answered my own question..

What about single note runs? Does a good ear trained "JI'er move the bar a third of a fret for the random out of context JI note? Or since it's not what you hear, but what you count, it doesn't matter. Nobody can hear that kind of stuff. Whoa! I did it again.

Also, when a JIer finally tunes "Everything" to JI, which of his or her combinations like the F lever only does he or she not play? I suppose vibrato. One more answer to my own question.

Out of tune with other instruments?

Silly guy, everybody knows that all tuners are different..

I guess it's simpler than I thought.

...Nevermind...

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 04 July 2005 at 12:06 PM.]

As I've stated before, how you tune is immaterial. Playing in tune is what matters. There are several "name" players whom I can no longer listen to. I try, but the dissonances they produce grate on my nerves...like fingernails on a blackboard. They penetrate to the very soul of my consciousness, and they irk my sensibilities. "They have to hear that!" I wail, "Surely someone else is also offended by all those warbling intervals". Perhaps, perhaps not. Played fast, I can easily gloss over them and listen to what else is going on, to the nuances of pick, bar, and pedal movements. But when they take on a slow passage, I grit my teeth in preparation for the atonal onslaught that's about to assail my senses.

And then, I think back, 30, 40, 50 years. These "sounds" did not appear then. Even Cousin Jody, with his "biscuit board" slung low before his lanky staggering frame, playing while meandering across the Opry stage committed no such aural offense.

And then, I try to guess...why today, and not then? Were it not for the evidence etched in vinyl, I might find myself blaming some internal factor, a lapse in memory, or an unschooled young ear back then. But it's there. I have proof.

Them old guys...

when they were young...

they were pretty good, weren't they?

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 04 July 2005 at 12:01 PM.]

I had asked if anyone tunes ET by ear. Eric replied:
quote:
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If I want to do it fast, I don't count the beats as much and just go for what is in my memory until I can get tuned by a correct tuner. The G#s get a "sparkle" and the F#s match the Bs with the Eb inbetween.
I just tried it while I posted, and I got within 7 cents on the worst of it.

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quote:

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Also, when a JIer finally tunes "Everything" to JI, which of his or her combinations like the F lever only does he or she not play?

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quote:

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Every time you tune one interval "beatless", you are tuning another one (or two) "useless".

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The reason the standard changes work so well is because when a string that was a 3rd for one chord changes to another interval in another chord, it is tuned at a different place (a different pedal or knee stop), so it is automatically corrected. The standard changes work out like this because, if they didn't, they wouldn't have survived as standard changes. So I would be interested in any specific examples of grips, pedals, levers, etc. where there are conflicts for you.

For single string work, I think many JI players would fret major thirds flat of the fret by ear on a slow line (and minor thirds sharp of the fret), especially when harmonizing with vocals or other instruments playing a different interval. On faster runs I think everyone simply tries to hit as close to the fret as possible both visually and by ear. Since the frets are spaced according to ET, we would simply be using ET for fast single string stuff, which seems to be acceptable by everyone. Surely you have no objections to us playing ET sometimes.

As far as playing in tune with other instruments tuned ET, again this is routinely done by competent JI players, although I'm sure there are plenty of examples where it was not done well, especially in recording situations where tracks are cut at different times.

As for tuning and playing ET by ear, I'm sure a competent player can learn that pretty well. Piano tuners routinely do it without tuners, by counting beats. But of course that can't be done playing in real time. Nevertheless, I'm sure someone who becomes accustomed to tuning ET and playing with other ET instruments can learn to do so by ear.

Having said that, I firmly believe that most people int he Western world, nonmusicians, novices and veterans alike, will naturally tune and play harmony closer to JI than to ET, if given a tonic and told to tune by ear. That is all I mean when I say our ears "want to hear JI." That is simply a convenient generalization, and is not meant to imply that your ears have not become accustomed to and so want to hear ET.

quote:

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I have developed a bad habit of wanting all the inversions available to me at any given time/place so I can't really remember what to avoid. I suppose if I did it that way for a year or two I could 'know' what to avoid but why would I do that?

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quote:

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quote:Every time you tune one interval "beatless", you are tuning another one (or two) "useless".

What's up with this statement? This is the whole point! I assume this means he tunes everything straight up.

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quote:

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would like to know why the beats seem to increase (get worse) with the aging of my strings

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I'll take a shot and say that it was my D string that I found that was out when tuned as a fifth to my F#. You tell me since you read it last.

So can you tune your strings within 7 cents without counting beats to zero? 20?

Test yourself and post the results like I did. Then I'll cut what I want out of them and post it.

It does take a lot of experience that's for sure. I've been used to ET for 40 years that I know of, 25 of them on this instrument. Tuning guitars to "frets" is kind of hokey too I admit.

Now its not like I'm explaining things for the dozenth time, I'm actually having to go back and "copy my posts". I don't think so...

They are merely questions I answered myself using the replies of posts I've read here over the years. Facetious? Yes, but it's confusing for those that don't know what that means..

I'll post the whole thing again if need be to keep it from being quoted piecemeal by people with poor reading skills.

or...

You can just scroll up before the next page appears..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 04 July 2005 at 03:09 PM.]

Check out the Jeff Newmann chart and get back to me.

Or after the gig tonight I'll go copy it again for the tenth time.

Db

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

quote:

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As great a Jerry Byrd may have been, I hear lots of intonation problems in his playing. I hear LOTS of questionable intonation on many old recordings; is it just me?

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Well, to be totally frank, I've heard some too, but only when bar slants were used. I expect it there because, it's so difficult to be "angularly perfect", and let's face it, guitars were rather crude back then compared to today's crop of precision instruments. But, I've got a ton of early stuff by the likes of Buddy E., Buddy C., Weldon, Pete, Hal, Curly, Lloyd, Day, Crawford, Walter, as well as others of the non-pedal world like Siebert, McCauliffe, Helms, Boggs, Joaquin, Stubbs, Wiggens, and Byrd.

If any of these guys ever played "out", it wasn't enough to bother me. And, if everyone today was so much better (or any better, for that matter), we wouldn't even be having these silly little discussions, would we?

Clearly, the fact we're debating this issue shows we're having a problem, or noticing that problem in others or in our own playing. My playing's not perfect, either. Only last week, I did a session, and before I even listened to the playback on one song, I knew I was "out" on a particular passage. We went over the playback, and both the engineer and vocalist said..."Sounds okay to me." My retort was something like "My GOD! Erase that before anyone else hears it...please!" I recut the track, and all was well. It wasn't how I was tuned, but how I was playing that caused the problem.

I suspect that's true for a lot of us.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

It sure felt like it was easier to play in tune with the rest of the band.

Does anyone actually tune all their notes to JI? If so, maybe there are three teams-ET tuners, JI tuners, and everybody else.

I think there are a lot of us who tune to tuners -- basically because many jobs don't allow you to tune up out loud. And there are a lot of us who realize that ET is the best choice for multiple tonal combinations but ET thirds make the hair on the back of our necks stand up.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

All in all, I found it easier to play in tune with this form of "tampered" tuning. That's the important thing.

If it's any consolation to anybody I too wish the Twelve Tone System was a little more flexible and maybe had just fifty or so more notes in it.

I gotta admit I've read the grandaddy of all efforts to make C C#.

Thanks all.

I don't have a team, but I guarantee I've had more than a half dozen emails thanking me for helping make sense of the "Tremendous Tunin' Question". Two from beginners that were otherwise by all the fancy out of tune systems.

A couple more thanking me for daring to let people know what I think of some of the lame crap that goes among with it. Some people have to bear with things they don't abide because of where they are and whose ass the must kiss. I don't envy them.

LOTS of intelligent discussion, for the most part.

And even some real wit, even if sometimes multiplied by .5 ...

Nite.

Happy Fourth.

EJL

Marty, I am sorry John Macy couldn't explain your question about how "tampered" tuning of thirds works. I will right here. If you tune your open E chord strings on E9 with the 3rds (G# on the 3rd and 6th strings) tuned to about 437 instead of 440, you will have a JI tuned E chord with "tampered" 3rds (that is, JI 3rds that are flat of ET). Now if you mash the A and B pedal to change that to an A chord, the 3rd and 6th strings become the tonics of that chord. But they do not have to be flat. You can easily tune those B pedal stops to 440. So the "tampered" 3rds of the E chord do not at all intefere with a well tuned A chord. Likewise, the thirds of the A chord are on strings 5 and 10. You can tune those "tampered" flat for a good JI sounding A chord by tuning the stops on the A pedal to about 437. That will not in any way interfere with the E chord on the open strings when you let up on the A and B pedals, because all those open strings are tuned at the keyhead independently of the A and B pedal stops. In short you can tune both chords with "tampered" 3rds, and in neither case does it interfere with the other chord. All inversions of both chords can be played with good JI intervals.

I repeat. Would you and Eric please give us one specific example of two chords, grips, inversions, or whatever that cannot be tuned and played with proper JI thirds and fifths in both chords? There are some of course. But if you take the time to start hunting around for them, you may find they are such obscure and uncommonly used grips that it is not worth putting all of your commonly used chords out of tune, just so you can use these esoteric grips. Also, you may find that even those few strange grips are not as out of tune as all of your common chords are when you tune everything straight up ET.

In 30+ years in the studio, I feel I have developed my ear to know what's in tune as well as anybody. I have been listening to myself back off tape since the beginning, and ended up using JI before tuners were standard, and the subject was even discussed. It's the same now as it was back then for me--if the piano plays, say an E chord that is sweet and in tune, and the guitar player plays his E chord that sounds in tune, and I play a ET E chord that sounds out of tune, how does that work? It doesn't in my world and never will. If you can make it work in yours, that's great--all I care about at the end of the day is whether or not the record is in tune... You can talk theory and math all day, but the bottom line is what works on the playback (and that window is getting more and more narrow).

(By the way, I never shy away from any inversions or grips. The only problems I had were with the F#'s, which Jimmie Crawford showed me how to fix with compensators in 1979.)

I tune straight up so that all my changes are useable.

It's simple and it works for me.

My ears have come to expect it.

So shoot me.

quote:

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I would truly hate to be a beginner reading all this stuff and trying to decide what to do. All I can say is try and record yourself with some in tune musicians and figure it out yourself. While "idol worship" won't get you anywhere, it doesn't hurt to know that the studio pros you hear daily playing in tune on the radio are all tuning JI, and they seemed to get called back...

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Thanks John. It bothers me also when I think how beginners might be mislead by some of these threads. Just remember guys, this is an internet chat room. Take it for what it is worth.

Learning how to trust your ears and make the steel sound good are the true secret to making a living playing.

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Bob
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 05 July 2005 at 07:51 AM.]

Get an E tuning fork and a C tuning fork and spend some quality time in a quiet room discovering for yourself what in tune means.

It gets better. With the Es lowered you also get a G# minor chord, the relative minor of B. A JI minor 3rd should be 444 (16 cents sharp of ET). The G# roots are 437 (tuned as the 3rds of the E open chord). The minor 3rd is B on strings 5 and 10. These were tuned to 440 as the 5ths of the open E chord. The 5ths are D# on strings 4 and 8. These were tuned to 437 on the E lower lever. So the minor chord comes out 1, 3, 5 as 437, 440, 437. In cents this is -12, 0, -12. The whole chord is 12 cents flat if the bar is directly over the fret. Any competent player's ears will have the bar slightly sharp of the fret, in which case the minor chord will be 440, 443, 440 (in cents 0, +12, 0). Again this is within 4 cents of a true JI minor chord (0, +16, 0).

Incidently, the exact problem Marty asked about is the reason that the E9/B6 universal does not have serious conflicts between tuning both the E9 and B6 modes JI. The B6 chord is the V chord of the E9 scale. Since both modes come from the same JI scale there are no serious conflicts.

Marty's example perfectly illustrates the principle at stake here. Tuning everything straight up ET at 440 allows you to play directly over the fret, but you will have dissonant sounding major and minor chords that are 440, 440, 440 (0, 0, 0) rather than the 440, 437, 440 (0, -12, 0) and 440, 444, 440 (0, +16, 0) one expects for JI. If you tune JI (which is typically done by ear, not necessarily with a meter), you can have the sweet sounding JI intervals, but you will not end up playing directly over the fret for every chord. The frets are just guidelines, and the chords and notes are played by ear. This is b0b's important point.

I know it is a bit complicated to analyze what happens like this. But in practice one never thinks out all this. You just tune your open strings by ear to what sounds good for the open E chord (strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10) and open B chord (strings 1, 2, 5, 7), and you tune your pedal and knee stops by ear to sound good with the open strings in the chords those stops are used for. This is what all pedal steelers did for decades until inexpensive handheld chromatic tuners became available. It worked then and it still works now.

It is amazing how much stuff works out right in tuning JI. This is not entirely by coincidence. With a JI scale, all the common chords (I, IV, V, VIm) have the proper JI intervals, with no conflicts. It is only chords like the II and VI that do not have the proper intervals. Usually on steel we would get those chords simply by moving the bar up a whole step from I or V, and that would preserve the proper JI intervals. This is an advantage we have over keyboards and harps. Also, on pedal steel, when we use a different string for the root, and therefore, change which strings have the 3rds, we usually use pedals or knee levers that allow us to tune the critical strings on stops independent of how the string is tuned at the keyhead. This buys us additional advantages over keyboards and harps. That is why for a lot of standard chords we do not necessarily have to use ET, but can use our own tuning system that can be much closer to JI for many chords. A pedal steel guitar is not a piano or harp, and does not always have to be tuned by the compromised ET system that was invented for pianos and harps. The fretless strings and horns are free to play JI, and so are we.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 05 July 2005 at 09:34 AM.]