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Author
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Topic: Super Finger" Tech Talk
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Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 18 July 2005 10:17 PM
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Ok Sho-bud Lovers; I took some closer shots of the John Coop "Super Finger" that I now have here in my room.
This is the most Genious Design of anything I've ever seen in ME life>Wow.
First you will notice the the Ball-Bearing Roller from the lower arm that pushes the top piece(finger top)> That right there alone; is the most Major fix of the Sho-bud Finger EVER. There is no more wear that can happen and create a groove in that top piece that happens and IS happening on the original fingers; that create tension and binding movement. Also notice the Genious Pivots that John can explain more; but there is absolutely no side to side slop and they move freely and in perfect motion. Also notice the pin to hold the string and that pin will NEVER come out and slipping a ball end in a slot that is extremely hard to do in the originals and also having the cut out in the originals Break...is a thing of the past. Also notice a set screw on the other side of the pin on the finger top; that actually holds the top pivot/rivot in place from Any side to side motion and the amount of slack that is prefered> now that is just the most perfect design to have an absolute Friction/binding/wobbling/slopping/catching/breaking free Finger that equates to less drop in Axle flex and less string breakage and less tuning problems of any original Sho-bud out there > PERIOD>HANDS DOWN>
John R. Coop Sr. is certainly a MASTER Tool Maker Machinist and please John if you would; further discuss what goes into this Super Finger; as opposed to the slapping together of molded or cut out pieces of metal with the most aweful rivots ever made; that were/are the original Sho-bud Fingers.
Ricky |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 19 July 2005 05:04 AM
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Ricky..[or anyone else with an opinion on this question].. I have pretty much stopped playing Buds because of the problems getting complete full tone lowers out of some of the changers.
Do you think this changer finger will pull down a good clean COMPLETE full tone??... Maybe John Coop can answer if no one else is sure. I always considered this a big problem with Buds as my copedent lowers several strings a FULL tone rather than half tone. I have fought Buds for years playing with string gauges, machining changer fingers to increase "travel"etc.... This would be a nice "breakthtough" as far as Bud changer efficiency was concerned!... Those fingers are INCREDIBLY well engineered, and beautifully made!!!bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 19 July 2005 at 05:11 AM.] |
Jon Zimmerman
Member From: California, USA
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posted 19 July 2005 07:07 AM
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Sure looks to be a quantum leap of stability/capability over the originals..undeniably, Coop is da man.
Farris C., I know you've heard of this in the works, and have been occupied recently, but ya gotta see these--wonderful! |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 19 July 2005 08:02 AM
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It is certainly great to see this potential occurring for bringing all those beautiful old Buds up to modern mechanical standards. This changer appears to actually surpass most modern ones. Thanks for bringing this stuff to our attention, Ricky. And, John, I hope you have a long, long run making these parts. |
JOHN COOP
Member From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA
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posted 19 July 2005 08:31 AM
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Thanks for the words of encouragement guys! Bob...Yes, these will go a whole tone with room to spare because now "ALL" of the slop has been taken out of the assembly. Any lost motion or slop in the assembly is going to result in not being able to lower or raise the way it should. When the things were origionally made, the 3 parts were grabbed up, the rivets stuck in holes in the pull finger and the raise/lower bars, then "Coined" or smashed on the back side of the rivets. If they came out snug, ok. If not, they got tossed in the box anyway! With mine, you can actually adjust the clearance between the raise bar and the pull finger by means of a 6-32 set screw that goes through the finger and locks the rivet in place at the desired clearance. On the rivet where the raisebar & lower bar pivots, there is a 6-32 "Stainless Steel" button head cap screw with a nylon washer under it to adjust the clearance. With the nylon washer under the BHSC you don't have any friction between the BHCS and the lower bar. Simple, isn't it! I use a 1/16" Stainless Steel pin to attach the string eye because any of you that have a D-10 Sho~Bud with the "CAP PISTOL" fingers can attest to when trying to attach the low bass C6 strings, it's a real pain in the ..well, you know where!!!!!!!!! Given the age of these Sho~Buds from the mid 70's on, you can be sure that most of these origional finger assemblies are "WORN OUT"! Hope this info helps. Coop |
Don Burrows
Member From: Ashtabula, Oh. USA
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posted 19 July 2005 08:46 AM
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I have used a ball bearing, on the lowering arm, in my changers for the last 5 years. Makes for a smooth action.------------------
Don Burrows
Builder of BSG Steel Guitars
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Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 19 July 2005 09:22 AM
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. Oh, Geeez, now I have to start looking for a Sho bud again!!bob |
Joseph De Feo
Member From: Narberth, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 19 July 2005 10:00 AM
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Looks like another BIG improvement from
our Sho-Bud dream team  I bought a set of
these Superfingers for my Pro II Custom, based on the quality I'd seen in his other
work on the Forum, and a few conversations
we had. Now that I see these Superfingers,
I can't wait to drop them in. John and Ricky
have been generous with their help, as it's
my first disassembly. So far there have been no problems.  I will continue to
post my progress, and let everyone know
my results with these Superfingers. I am
a still-wet-behind-the-ears, newbie, so if
I can put these in, anybody can. |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 19 July 2005 10:27 AM
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John brings up an interesting point:
Attaching heavy gauge strings (like the bottom two of C6 or a U-12) is a pain.Rather than hijack this post
I'll start a new one. If you're interested, look for
ShoBud: Problems mounting large strings ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 19 July 2005 11:24 AM
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I like the principle of having a roller-bearing where previously it was metal-to-metal contact.
However, I have one reservation:
Is the pin that the roller-bearing is mounted on strong enough for the job it has to do?
From the pictures, the diameter of this axle looks a little flimsy.Sorry for the negativity, but as a former designer/builder of steels, I feel my input is valid.
R B |
JOHN COOP
Member From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA
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posted 19 July 2005 11:58 AM
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Richard..That is a hardened .125 diameter dowel pin that is Tig welded using stainless steel rod to the back side of the lower bar. The same method I used on "Big Jim Murphy's" Pro II "8 YEARS AGO"!!!!!!! Coop |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 19 July 2005 12:14 PM
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And I can attest that 8 years from when John Coop made those fingers for Murph's Sho-bud; that they perfermed flawlessly as I played that very Sho-bud for 8 months up until Murph's passing.
And here is proof that the rollers in the Super Finger will last that long and NOBODY plays the pedal steel as hard as I do and certainly no where close to as hard as Murph played/stomped on it.
Hope that answers your Question Richard.
Ricky |
Don Burrows
Member From: Ashtabula, Oh. USA
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posted 19 July 2005 12:51 PM
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I also use a 1/8" stainless rivet to hold the ball bearing to the lowering arm and I have removed a changer after 2 years of playing and everything was tight and absolutely no wear on the finger at all or any other parts of the changer.------------------
Don Burrows
Builder of BSG Steel Guitars
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Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 19 July 2005 12:58 PM
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Hey that's way cool Don. I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with your BSG Steel guitar. Can you direct me to a website you may have with more info and pictures of the mechanics you build/make??? Love to see some stuff.
...and again; I'm sorry if your info passed by me somewhere on here...I don't look at everything...but you striked an interest.
Ricky |
Don Burrows
Member From: Ashtabula, Oh. USA
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posted 19 July 2005 01:58 PM
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Ricky, I just got my website up and running about a month ago and just got it posted ubder the Steel guitar Manufactures on this forum links. Here is the address: http://bsgsteelguitars.com ------------------
Don Burrows
Builder of BSG Steel Guitars
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Buck Dilly
Member From: Branchville, NJ, USA
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posted 19 July 2005 03:14 PM
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Hey Rick. Is that a maple leaf on your Bud? |
James Morehead
Member From: Durant, Oklahoma, USA
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posted 19 July 2005 05:34 PM
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John, check your e-mail, I have a question or two about these fingers!
Japanese Maple leaf ain't it, Ricky? |
Larry Robbins
Member From: Fort Edward, New York, USA
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posted 19 July 2005 06:52 PM
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It looks like a Columbian maple leaf to me!
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David Mullis
Member From: Rock Hill, SC
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posted 19 July 2005 08:35 PM
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good to see that the whole tone lower problem has been addressed. I went through some pains with that on the Super I had. |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 19 July 2005 10:00 PM
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Thanks John and Ricky
for answering my query.
I have a tendency to
'over engineer' the things that
I make.
As that pin has lasted
many years without problems
in a professional playing
environment,
then I think that my doubts
are unfounded.
As the advert used to say:
The man from Del Monte says "Yes"!!R B |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 20 July 2005 01:00 PM
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Hey Way cool Don; I mainly wanted to see your changer finger also; and Wala you have a picture of it and it looks real good man...>why here it is now..
Buck that is the late "Big Jim Murphy" Sho-bud and that is a "Pot" leaf on the front; as Dick Miller did that whole refinish job for Murph before his passing also.
And Murph had one of them leafs on is Bethal also; and the cover that was made for his steels had it stiched on the front...ha...so when you cover up the steel; it's still there man....ha.
That was one of Big Jim's trade marks; but don't let it fool ya....Jim quit all that stuff many many years ago(God rest his soul).
So has EVERYONE ordered their "Super fingers" yet???? If you haven't; and you email me: "Ricky I can't seem to get this or that to do this or that and this isn't working right and bla bla bla" I'm going to Yell at you...ha...and say "I told ya so; it's right there in plain English"...ha.
Ricky |
Chuck McGill
Member From: Jackson, Tn
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posted 20 July 2005 02:52 PM
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John or Ricky how much are these fingers for a
super pro.
Thanks
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JOHN COOP
Member From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA
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posted 20 July 2005 03:19 PM
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Chuck...I sent you an E-Mail. Coop |
Leon Campbell
Member From: Texas, USA
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posted 20 July 2005 04:06 PM
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Hay John,will you email me a price for these
super fingers for a super pro.Thanks, Leon |
Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 20 July 2005 04:22 PM
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This is just one of the many reasons that this Forum is so valuable. Just think about it. What used to be a huge problem for the vintage Sho-Buds, is now rectifiable! New, high tech fingers for your old Buds. Like getting a changer transplant. Amazing.------------------
I'd rather be opinionated, than apathetic! |
Billy Easton
Member From: Casa Grande, Arizona, USA
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posted 20 July 2005 04:45 PM
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John...could you email me the price as well for a D10 Super Pro? Thanks.Billy Easton
Casa Grande, AZ |
Loren Morehouse
Member From: Meadowlands, MN USA
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posted 20 July 2005 05:12 PM
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Ricky, I love the looks of these fingers, but has there been any tonal change?? I don't want to spoil that Bud sound!! Loren. |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 20 July 2005 05:59 PM
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Curt to be more specific.
This "Super finger" replaces the double raise/double lower and Triple raise/double lower fingers that were made for the Pro-II "Custom and Pro-III "Custom and Super Pro. Those Sho-bud's aren't particularly the vintage Sho-bud; as to me the Vintage Sho-bud was the Permenant and Fingertip and Professional and all single raise/single lower barrel tuning Sho-buds(however; John can retro-fit these in them; but more indepth work is needed). The reason I specify is because there was ZERO inharent problems with those vintage Changer fingers.
Loren that is an extremely hard question to answer in a word; as you have to account many things and arrive at your own conclusion of what you want to know/learn. I will try to explain.
The strings vibrate on the fingers and rollers. So what are the fingers made out of and how are they mounted and work and what are they mounted to; and how,(the body and type);; and what is pulling them and how are they pulled and what is that stuff made of and how are they mounted> IS the overall Tone of the pedal steel and voice related. The Voice of a particular pedal steel can be altered in many ways; including every little part down the line of vibration.
Changing just the fingers to the Super Fingers; with everything else the same; in my opinion; you are not doing enough to change the Tone of the Guitar; but giving it a different texture of Voice. This particular Super Finger Voice is what EVERYONE is wanting and would want their Sho-bud to be. Example would be; take a person that does not Smoke and listen to him sing and he has a nice clear voice and great tone. Now have him sit in a room full of smoke and suck down about 15 cigars in 2 hours. Now listen to him sing> his Tone is the same; but his voice is now not as clear as it was> Get my drift????
The Super Finger is the clearest Voice of the great Tone of the Sho-bud at hand; that I've ever heard.
Well I can go on and on trying to explain but redundancy WILL happen I'm sure.
Just chew on that; and I'm sure you will get what I was trying to explain.
Now my opinion after playing Murph's Sho-bud Pro-II Custom pictured above; after playing more than a dozen Pro-II Customs that were from original to total retro-fitted upgranded(what ever could possibly be done to alter a Sho-bud like it); Murph's Sho-bud Blew All them Clear out of the Water with the most wonderful Voice of a Sho-bud Tone I EVER HEARD> EVER.
So If I was to answer your question without taking the time to explain; it would be "Yes of course"; but then I would refer you to all the comments above and the many many comments I've made on this subject over time and hopefully one can tell the difference between voice and Tone(which is pretty hard to do..ha.. .
Now if you change completly everything; You are getting damn close to changing the overall tone of the Sho-bud...and I highly Recommend one NOT doing that; if they want a Sho-bud sound. But if you do want to change many things in the vibration line; I HIGHLY> did I say highly?? YES: HIGHLY; recommend you look at what John R. Coop Sr. has to accompany that line of vibration in ever aspect. His parts are made of the highest quality for Tonal and movement purposes; than anything I've ever seen Made> for the Sho-bud that is. Ricky |
Loren Morehouse
Member From: Meadowlands, MN USA
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posted 20 July 2005 08:41 PM
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Thanks Ricky, again you da man!! Can't thank you enough for all your wisdom and expertise on these instruments!! And it's so nice to get an explanation and details on these subjects!! Means so much to all us steelers. Loren. |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 21 July 2005 11:00 AM
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Your Welcome Loren. |
James Morehead
Member From: Durant, Oklahoma, USA
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posted 21 July 2005 08:11 PM
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Just awesome! This sounds pretty historic for "Shobuds"! VERY exciting! Talk on, talk on! |
JOHN COOP
Member From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA
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posted 24 July 2005 06:55 AM
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> |
JOHN COOP
Member From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA
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posted 24 July 2005 07:27 PM
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The orders for these is really growing fast. If you are wanting a set of these, you better get your name in the hat. Coop |
JOHN COOP
Member From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA
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posted 26 July 2005 09:01 PM
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>>> |
James Cann
Member From: Phoenix, AZ (heart still in Boston)
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posted 29 July 2005 05:02 PM
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quote:
This "Super finger" replaces the double raise/double lower and Triple raise/double lower fingers that were made for the Pro-II "Custom and Pro-III "Custom and Super Pro.
Will they fit an LDG? |
JOHN COOP
Member From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA
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posted 29 July 2005 06:35 PM
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James...Yes, they will fit an LDG. What year LDG? Could you E-Mail me some info on it? Coop |
JOHN COOP
Member From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA
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posted 11 August 2005 01:11 PM
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>>> |
Ken Byng
Member From: Southampton, England
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posted 13 August 2005 07:54 AM
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John
Could you email me your price for the Pro 111 Custom fingers - triple raise & double lower.Many thanks |
Ken Byng
Member From: Southampton, England
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posted 13 August 2005 07:58 AM
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My guitar is now 30 years old and has grooves worn in the finger rollers. A real pain for me too is trying to get my bottom C string on my C6th neck to sit in the groove on the changer when changing strings. I dread it every times I change strings. John's new fingers could well be the answer to my prayers. |
JOHN COOP
Member From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA
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posted 13 August 2005 11:17 AM
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Ken...Sent you an E-Mail. Coop |
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