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  Jeff Newman tuning, for newbies

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Author Topic:   Jeff Newman tuning, for newbies
Charlie McDonald
Member

From: Lubbock, Texas, USA

posted 31 August 2005 03:29 AM     profile     
I had an hour to kill yesterday, so I put on the Jeffran Quick Start video that comes with Carter's Little F**ter Starter (everybody needs a machine to get started f**ting around with, and this is a great one).
So when he got his Korg tuner out, I got mine out and parked my steel in front of the tv and matched him string for string (and all the while, the 'tuner par excellence' in the back of my mind scoffing, 'this can't be right'; I think the only thing that came out at 440 was my A--most of you don't have that on a open string).
He couldn't explain why you have to tune a pedal steel out of tune to get it to play in tune, but I took it on faith like him, suspending disbelief.

When we were finished, it sounded great!
I didn't tamper it, but I recorded with it, and I could actually play in tune.

I don't know what you call it, with the E's and B's sharp by 8 or 9 cents, and other notes as flat as 18 cents, but it doesn't matter. It's a great place to start.

Now, I may not agree that a note doesn't sound good without vibrato, or that a fast vibrato is terrible, but exposure to these ideas never hurts one, and it gets you aware of the left hand.

His right hand position is also good, and I'll even check out the Right Hand Alpha DVD to raise my awareness even more.

Recommended for beginners.

Ron Sodos
Member

From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

posted 31 August 2005 08:03 AM     profile     
It is called temper tuning and deals with the blend of notes. A piano is tuned that way as well with the notes blending together to being in tune. Since Jeff did that video he changed his tuning and raised the tuning higher to accomadate for "cabinet drop" which is caused by steppjng on the pedals and shifting the tuning of the open strings.

I use a digital tuner which actually gives me the exact number of the frequency. E's are 442.5 G#'s are 438.5 and so forth. Ever since i stqrted using Jeff's tuning chart I have never had a problem sounding in tune.

Of course being in tune also depends on bar technique as well.......

Mike Winter
Member

From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA

posted 31 August 2005 08:36 AM     profile     
Uh oh!!! I'm ducking...
Charlie McDonald
Member

From: Lubbock, Texas, USA

posted 31 August 2005 09:17 AM     profile     
Good move, Mike.
David Doggett
Member

From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

posted 31 August 2005 09:29 AM     profile     
You guys are on the right track, but you need to get your terminology right. You have it backwards. The meter is not in tune. It gives a compromised form of tempered tuning called equal temper (ET). By departing from the straight up meter, Jeff puts the guitar more in tune with the untempered natural harmonic tuning system, called just intonation (JI). Over the centuries, throughout the Western world, JI has been considered “in tune.” Anything that departs from JI is a tempered tuning. There are many tempered tunings (mean temper, well temper, etc.). ET is the one tempered tuning with equal intervals over the whole diatonic scale. It is a compromise away from JI that is necessary for keyboards and other fixed pitch instruments. All electronic chromatic meters give the compromised ET. Some will also give, or can be programmed to give, JI (but of course there is no one JI, because it is different for each key).

Jeff’s tuning may not be exactly JI everywhere, so in that technical sense may be tempered in places, but it is much closer to JI than to ET. So it approximates a natural tuning more than a tempered tuning. It is the meter that is truly tempered. Because of the widespread use of electronic meters, many guitarists have gotten the terminology and concepts backwards. They tune to the meter (which they mistakenly consider “in tune”), then, if they tweak their tuning away from the straight up meter, they consider that they are tempering. In fact, they are first tuning to the tempered tuning of the meter, then adjusting back towards the natural untempered tuning.

Also, Jeff has attempted to incorporate cabinet drop, for example by tuning the unpedaled Es slightly sharp, with the knowledge that they will drop slightly when the pedals are used. Each guitar’s cabinet drop is a little different. So while Jeff’s chart is a good general tuning to start with, the proper approach is to tune very carefully with your own guitar and own ears, then look at a meter and make out your own chart. In some cases your chart may be about the same as Jeff’s, in some cases maybe not. This is not a simple process, and you may decide you do not agree with Jeff’s method. For example, I see no point in tuning the pedal-down As exactly straight up to the meter (A=440), and letting the Es go sharp. One plays both with pedals up and down. Why be in tune one way, and out the other way? So I split the difference, and tune the As slightly flat and the Es slightly sharp. Also, applying a lower can cause cabinet raise. So all cabinet change compensations may not go in the same direction.

If you read the many threads on the ET/JI tuning problem, you will see that many steelers tune somewhere between ET and JI. The slang term that has been used for that recently is “tampered tuning.” While that makes the basic chords a little impure harmonically, it makes the steel a little more versatile in terms of playing many complicated changes in tune with itself, and also may help match the ET tuning of keyboards and guitars that are tuned straight up ET (not all guitarists always tune everything straight up). Some steelers say to heck with it and tune everything straight up ET. That is simpler to do if you watch a chromatic meter, but is more difficult to do if you take a single reference pitch and tune everything else to that by ear. But most steelers object to the dissonance in the basic common chords that ET causes.

You guys may know all this. But it is good to try to get all the terminology right for beginners who are tuning in, so to speak.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 31 August 2005 at 09:35 AM.]

Charlie McDonald
Member

From: Lubbock, Texas, USA

posted 31 August 2005 09:35 AM     profile     
David, I'm sure you know my stance on this (which is actually between ET and JI, with no problems with equal temperament due to piano tuning). But this was my first experience with what I assumed to be JI, and thought it mostly to be Jeff's years of experience, which I thought might be taking cabinet drop into account. I was pleasantly surprised, and am no longer sure there is really a debate, at least for me.
But it's entirely possible... well, I won't go further.
Good points you've made.
David Doggett
Member

From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

posted 31 August 2005 09:45 AM     profile     
Yes, I think every beginner should tune everything straight up to the meter (ET) at least once, and also tune with Jeff's chart (or something like it) at least once, to hear the difference. Then they should learn to tune their own instrument to their own ears. They should also try the different tunings both alone and with other instruments. I think we've established with samples posted by Dan Tyack and Larry Bell that JI tends to sound better when playing alone, but moving a little closer to ET tends to sound better with other ET-tuned instruments. This is how so many players arrived at their own personal "tampered" tuning.
Charlie McDonald
Member

From: Lubbock, Texas, USA

posted 31 August 2005 10:03 AM     profile     
Right on, David; it's good to try everything, get a basis of comparison.
I didn't tamper with Jeff's tuning, just to play and get used to it. His experience really comes through. But eventually, I think everybody is going to tamper with it, regardless of which side they start from.
John Daugherty
Member

From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

posted 31 August 2005 11:51 AM     profile     
Charlie, as David stated, cabinet drop was factored into the offsets. I can't get in tune with Jeffs offsets. You really have to learn how to tune your guitar, accepting the cabinet drop of your specific guitar. It is a compromise. Some notes will be a little sharp and some will be a little flat, in the real world of pedal steel guitar,unless you install compensators. I have seen statements on the forum, stating "my guitar does not have cabinet drop". Well, figure that one out ?????

------------------
www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar


Charlie McDonald
Member

From: Lubbock, Texas, USA

posted 31 August 2005 01:09 PM     profile     
I wondered about that too, how he could come up with an average of offsets. But the guy knew a lot about pedal steel. You raise a good point, to know your own steel well enough to establish an ofset for your own cabinet drop. Of ourse, mine has none.
And I'm deaf.
richard burton
Member

From: Britain

posted 31 August 2005 01:21 PM     profile     
I think Jeff Newman was playing a ShoBud at the time.
My experience of ShoBud has been significant cabinet drop, probably more than any modern guitar.
But if it works for you, what the hell !!
R B
Ron Sodos
Member

From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

posted 31 August 2005 01:46 PM     profile     
I think you guys that elaborate on this stuff are nuts. I followed Jeff's chart 25 years ago and have been in what sounds good tuning ever since. That is enough terminology for me. I'd rather play than talk about it.......
Rick Nicklas
Member

From: Pleasant Ridge, Mo

posted 31 August 2005 02:14 PM     profile     
In every band I've played in, I always tune my guitar open strings and then pedals and knee levers while checking all the way up the neck. As soon as the band kicks off I can hear the 3rd's clashing, usually with me and the lead or rhythm guitar. That is one of the main reasons I switched to steel because of that pesky G string on the standard, and believe me I tried professionals adjusting the floating bridge on my strat or any other of the many guitars I owned. If it was in tune in the E progression then it was out in the C progression when the G string was open string. Also vice versa when I raised the G string to be in tune with the C progression. I read a thread the other night about tuning up the E's to 442 and get the others in tune from that. I tried that and last friday I liked the results alot more. It was just a little sharp so I am going to 441 and will try that this weekend.

[This message was edited by Rick Nicklas on 31 August 2005 at 02:16 PM.]

[This message was edited by Rick Nicklas on 31 August 2005 at 02:30 PM.]

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