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Author
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Topic: Franklin" Pedal On Push/Pull?
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Bob Snelgrove
Member From: san jose, ca
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posted 14 September 2005 06:45 AM
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I'm thinking of sending my '78 Crawford Emmons to Dr. Bowman for an overhaual/update. Does the PF pedal 4 add too much slack to the pedal action?thx bob |
Mike Archer
Member From: Church Hill, Tennessee, USA
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posted 14 September 2005 07:52 AM
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this may help or it may not
i just had bryan adams build me a new
sd10 pp and i had the franklin change
put on my rkl that is drop 5and6
together works great for me and it may not be others cup of tea but it sure is easy and smooth ( I HAVE HAD BOTH KNEES
REPLACED AND THE VERTICAL DID NOT WORK WELL
FOR ME AT ALL) WITH THIS SAID
i cant see a problem adding it to
pedal 4 as well |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 14 September 2005 08:32 AM
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Definitely will add more slack. It's just a case of whether or not you can get used to it.------------------
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Charlie Wallace
Member From: Marina, California, USA
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posted 14 September 2005 09:19 AM
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I have the Franklin change on my S10 PP. Works very well as long as I'm consistent with string gauges, B -.018 - G# .022. |
Tom Quinn
Member From: Sacramento
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posted 14 September 2005 09:35 AM
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Yer killin' me with that photo Jay-san! |
Steve Dodson
Member From: Sparta, Tennessee, USA
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posted 14 September 2005 10:05 AM
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Tom, I'm with you on the Photo. Jay sure know's how to get to a man.  |
Ernie Renn
Member From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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posted 14 September 2005 03:17 PM
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A honkin' combination!On Topic: I think almost any changes can be put on a PP. The person putting it on just has to know what they're doing.  ------------------
My best,
Ernie
www.buddyemmons.com |
Charlie Moore
Member From: Deville, Louisiana, USA
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posted 14 September 2005 06:42 PM
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Bob i put the change on the 4th pedal on my p/p i just sold,i extended the 5th string raise side of the bellcrank 3/8" to take up the slack it worked fine.I can tell ya Dr. Bowman can make a p/p walk on water(almost)..c ya
Charlie.. |
Fred Amendola
Member From: Lancaster, Pa.
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posted 14 September 2005 06:51 PM
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Bob,
I wanted that change on my push pull. So instead of lowering 5 and 6. I raised 4 a whole tone on the 4th pedal. When you slide the bar back two frets, you get the Franklin pedal voicing. Without the added slack. It might be worth a try for you.
Fred
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Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 14 September 2005 09:44 PM
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Mr. Moore wrote:
quote:
i extended the 5th string raise side of the bellcrank 3/8" to take up the slack it worked fine.
Sorry I don't understand. I added the above mentioned change to a PP some 10 years ago.However I was never happy with it.For me to get this to work I had to drop the hook in the 5th string changer finger closer to the pickup and maybe still add some travel to the A and C pedals.Can't remember for sure. Bottom line my A and C pedals where a tad to long and stiff for my liking.I'm just trying to learn a better way to do this. Thanks in advance.....bb |
Dave Ristrim
Member From: Whites Creek, TN
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posted 15 September 2005 05:47 AM
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Hi Bob,
I have not added the PF change to my P/P's because of the slack issue. Let me know how it turns out, maybe I'll give it a whirl as well. I figured that with ALL the steels I have, I didn't have to have that change on all of them. 
Dave
see you in October |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 15 September 2005 03:43 PM
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My p/p came to me with that 4th pedal change and it was so slacky that I removed it. I feel like I have a decent grasp of the push/pull mechanical issues and I just couldn't get around that extra slack factor that the PF pedal caused. Brad Sarno |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 15 September 2005 04:36 PM
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I have Fred's suggestion on one of my old
Emmons, and it occasionally comes in handy.
It's not quite the same, but it's better than
nothing.[This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 16 September 2005 at 09:21 AM.] |
Bob Snelgrove
Member From: san jose, ca
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posted 15 September 2005 04:43 PM
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Fred,What do you think about Jay's idea?  Only kidding. I think I'll pass on this change on the P/P. The idea is to make it play easier not add to the confusion thx bob |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 15 September 2005 04:54 PM
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This can be done.The 6th string whole tone lower is a walk in the park with a plain string. I'm pretty sure Randy Beavers lowers his 5th a whole tone on his PP. I'm thinking Jerry Roller has the Frank pedal on a PP. I'm betting the above mentioned guitars don't have the slack that the rest of us have or had.Jerry where are you?? Bob, it's your ax.But unless you're going to raise the 7th a whole tone? You'll have about 4 licks to one if you split this change like on the guitars you bought from Tommy.One second thought. You can't split tune the 6th string lower like you can on an all pull.Make that 3 to 1 As for split tuning the 6th string on a PP.You can.Sort off.But you have to have the A pedal engaged along with the B pedal.So you lose about half of you possibilities.....bb |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 15 September 2005 04:59 PM
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Bob wrote: quote:
Only kidding. I think I'll pass on this change on the P/P. The idea is to make it play easier not add to the confusion
Bob I wish I had known that before I spent 10 mins trying to peck out that last post. I'm late for a gig.Gotta go........bb[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 15 September 2005 at 05:00 PM.] |
Bob Snelgrove
Member From: san jose, ca
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posted 15 September 2005 05:13 PM
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OK, BobbyI'm back in, then
bob
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Charlie Moore
Member From: Deville, Louisiana, USA
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posted 16 September 2005 04:26 PM
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Bobby Boggs i extended the bellcrank on the 5th string to make the string pull the same length as it was pulling with out a whole tone drop.As has been said the 5th string and 10th string are the problem so it is SIMPLE when you allow enough travel in the raise rod for a whole tone drop you have to have more travel in the standard bellcrank if you extended the bellcrank 3/8"it pulls the 5th string faster or shorter travel..try it it work's fine...Charlie... |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 16 September 2005 11:38 PM
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But Charlie, on a push-pull the 5th string raise rod goes through the C pedal bellcrank before it enters the A pedal bellcrank (or vice-versa if you have the Day setup).
Did you also increase the length of the C bellcrank, to avoid jamming the system up? |
Rainer Hackstaette
Member From: Bohmte, Germany
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posted 17 September 2005 03:17 AM
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Instead of extending the 5th string A-pedal bellcrank (which would require a bend in the pull rod) you could use the "idle bellcrank trick". For that, you need a 2-hole half bellcrank like this:  You slip the half bellcrank on a cross bar near the changer, but don't fasten it with the set screw (take it out), hence "idle" bellcrank. Put a swivel into each hole on opposite sides. Run a pull rod from the lower hole of the idle bellcrank through the C-pedal bellcrank, and on to the bellcrank on the A-pedal cross bar, string 5. Run a second, short pull rod from the changer to the upper hole of the idle bellcrank and fasten it there:  When you push pedals A or C, their bellcranks pull the idle bellcrank, which then pulls the short pull rod at the changer. The lengths of the bellcranks add up, giving you a shorter throw resp. a longer pull distance. I use this method on string 4, C-pedal and LKL, to shorten the throw on LKL. On string 5, it should give you enough pull distance to lower B-A and still raise B-C# without excessive travel on the A or C pedal. NOTE: In the photo of the undercarriage, the pull rod in the upper hole of the idle bellcrank goes on to pedal C. This rod should be a short one that ends at the swivel. Rainer
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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, '70 Emmons D-10 8+4, '69 Emmons S-10 6+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, '73 Sho~Bud LDG 3+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400, Line 6 Variax 700
[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 17 September 2005 at 03:19 AM.]
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Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 17 September 2005 05:11 AM
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Is the PF change a lower of strings 5&6 a whole tone?
Not that I'd even know what to do with it even if I could do it. Kind of a hypothetical for a Carter Starter.
Inquiring Minds.... |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 17 September 2005 05:17 AM
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Do you have to have a brick on your left foot to enable you to press the pedals, Rainer? |
Rainer Hackstaette
Member From: Bohmte, Germany
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posted 17 September 2005 05:31 AM
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Charlie, the PF pedal lowers 5,6, and 10 a full tone each.Richard, I wear concrete boots! I have the idle bellcrank on LKL and it doesn't require more force to move that lever than any other lever on the PP. Infact, I can use the hole farthest from the changer axle on the raise finger, even though string 4 is lowered also. Normally, you would have to move the raise rod one hole closer to the axle, if a string is lowered as well. I don't think the pressure would be significantly higher on a pedal. But I admit I haven't tried it. Rainer |
Charlie Moore
Member From: Deville, Louisiana, USA
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posted 17 September 2005 06:20 PM
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Richard you have to bend a 1/2" off set in the raise rod.no problem.. or you could install another rod..
Rainer i tried the 2 hole bellcrank with the 5th&6th string it was fine but when you add the 10th it got stiff..do what i did just go to a all pull guitar forget the (tone)ha..c ya /.Charlie...
p/s you can use the 2 hole bellcrank on the 1st string raise to G# it shortens the knee lever travel that works good... [This message was edited by Charlie Moore on 17 September 2005 at 06:22 PM.] |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 18 September 2005 03:41 AM
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Thank you, Rainer. Sounds pretty cool. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 18 September 2005 07:35 AM
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So where can I find one (or two) of these idle bellcranks?Brad |
Rainer Hackstaette
Member From: Bohmte, Germany
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posted 18 September 2005 09:48 AM
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Brad, you can make them yourself. Just take a regular bellcrank and drill an extra 1/4" hole into the shank. You can cut off the lower shank with a hacksaw, but it's not really necessary. You must take out the set screw to make it "idle". To prevent the idle bellcrank from wobbling on the cross bar, fasten a collar (5/16" ID) on each side of it.There is one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet. If there is a B to Bb lower in addition to the PF pedal, it will have to be tuned with a half-tone tuner. Turning this half-tone tuner in the bowels of the undercarriage is a bear! Rainer[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 18 September 2005 at 09:56 AM.] |
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