E9th: strings 1,2,4,5,6,8,10

C6th: strings 2,3,5,10

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"Ask Bud!"
Question:
Many newer model steels offer tunable splits or compensators. Would you explain the difference between tunable splits and the "feel" stops or half-stops often used on 2nd string lowers? What are the tunable splits intended to accomplish? How well do the different brands of pedal steels stack up?
Answer:
To answer your question about the difference between tunable splits and half-stops (feel stops, etc.), I can say the following:

Half-Stops:
Half-stops are normally found on the 2nd string on the E9 neck: D# to D to C# (-1/2, -1). These typically control one (1) string only and are used with 1 knee lever at a time. Half-stops can be used on pedals, but we do not recommend it because it is harder to feel the stop with your feet and it makes the action stiffer. Most modern steels implement half-stops in 2 different ways:

Separate pull bar (bell crank), rod and tuning nuts with its own unique location (11th or 13th lower "finger"). This method was first used on the MCI. Presently, it is used on both the Remington and the Carter.

The 9th string (D) lower (C# or -1/2) engages only when string 2 (D#) goes from D to C#. Zumsteel, Mullen & others use this method.

Both methods are tuned with tuning nuts in the endplate (same as pedals & knee levers).

Splits:
Splits allow you to use a pedal and a knee lever that operate the same string together at the same time. Example: Pedal 2 raises the 6th string (G#) 1/2-tone (+1/2) to A; Knee lever lowers full tone (-1) to F#. In this example, a split would allow you to use both the pedal and knee lever together, resulting in a 1/2-tone lower (G) and it would be accurately tunable.

Compensators:
There are three (3) types of Compensators:
Tuning Compensators: are extra "pulls" that allow you to be in tune when using the pedals or knee levers.. A typical implementation is to flat the two (2) F#'s (strings 1 and 7) about 1/8 of a tone when the "A&B" pedals are used (E9 to A6).

Return Compensators: are extra rods typically attached to a fixed point, such as a cross-brace. These make sure any string that both lowers and raises will return true. Not all steels use or require this type of compensator.

Detuning Compensators: are mechanisms that apply pressure to the changer to reduce an excessive "drop" in pitch that occurs due to mechanical stresses caused by using the pedals and/or knee levers. Very few steels use this type of compensator.

As to how well the different brands stack up, I recommend that you talk to the various manufacturers, try out the different makes, and talk to other players who use or have used those products. And, I suppose, just like anything else in life, your own personal preferences will shape your outlook and opinion of what is a good steel, as well as a good deal.

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My Sierra does not need them.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 May 2006 at 07:11 AM.]

I have compensators on; E9th - 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th and 10th. On C6 - 2nd, 3rd and 10th (although the 9th both raises and lowers for some reason it doen't need one).

From my perspective, as someone who has zero knowledge of them - it sounds like a gadget that makes your guitar be in tune when there doesn't seem to be any reason for it to be out of tune to begin with.

1.You tune the raises on two pedals to start with - so why would there be an "extra pull" to tune something already tuned? It's either tuned - or it's not. If it's not, it doesn't need an "add-on" - it needs repair or redesign.

2. Why would a string both raised and lowered return out-of-tune? It would seem to me if a "compensator" was necessary to force a string to return properly, something wasn't built right to start with.

Maybe I'm missing the boat entirely, but I'm just trying to understand what a "compensator" is - and from the descriptions given it seems like it's just something added to make up for mechanical defects.

Follow the link above not the inaccurate quote that appeared before editing.

Tuning compensators have nothing to do with improper mechanical operation or design of steel guitars.

When using JT and the root note changes strings ( like from 4, E, to 6, A, when the pedals are pushed) the other notes in the chords need to change their interval spacing to "sound right".

The 7th string, which is NOT moving when using the A & B pedals, will be out of tune as it becomes a 6th instead of a 9th. It needs to be slightly flattened to sound in tune. Similarly, when lowering the E's you'll find the seventh string needs to be sharpened since it is now the 5th of a B chord.

I'm pretty sure you'll find your Fender has some of the same problems. You can't escape the laws of physics.

[This message was edited by John Fabian on 18 May 2006 at 03:33 AM.]

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Maybe I'm missing the boat entirely, but I'm just trying to understand what a "compensator" is - and from the descriptions given it seems like it's just something added to make up for mechanical defects.

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No Jim. Your simple insight is the basis of a lot of controversy and pride. You are right to question why.

Reminds me of the story of the "Emporer's new clothes".....................

Excellent.

I'm confused by John's post, though - both descriptions said the same thing to me. If you tune to 440 (I plead ignorance one one thing - I don't know what you mean by "JT"), your changes are tuned 440 - when a string becomes a new root note, how does it magically become 443 or something? That's where to me, something is wrong with the guitar.

Cabinet drop I understand conceptually - but this one seems more like voodoo than physics.

John, I have a copedant I will be emailing you that I would like to put on my new Carter (almost there with the savings), but would like to get some feedback from you on any possible problems. It tends to be somewhat of a complex setup.

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Tuning compensators have nothing to do with improper mechanical operation or design of steel guitars

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With all due respect again here Mr Fabian...that is the exact reason why some guitars need them and some don't for the same changes...i followed your link, in fact i read it twice, and again with all due respect, i respectfully disagree....
While i really enjoy and appreciate the insight of great players like Mr Franklin, and others. We must remember, as awe struck as we are. They are "Not" the final authority on this subject. There are players, then there are builders. And not all builders play like Mr Franklin, and not all players build like Mr Fields, and Mr Rudolph, Mr Andersen, and Mr Paul Redmond.
Edited For Spelling

[This message was edited by George Redmon on 17 May 2006 at 05:38 PM.]

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Bobby Lee
Sysop
From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
posted 15 March 2002 09:01 AM profile send email edit
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There are several meanings of the word "compensator" in pedal steel lingo.
First, a compensator pull is one that pulls a string by a small amount to bring it in tune with notes that have been changed my the pedals. The most common of these is the technique of lowering the F# strings slightly on the A or B pedals, to bring them in tune with the A major chord.

Another kind of compensator is used to bring a return back to pitch. This is most common on the E strings, where the lower change typically returns sharp (the "hysteresis" effect). Keyless guitars don't have this problem, so they don't need this kind of compensator.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

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This is a very good explaination!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 May 2006 at 06:13 PM.]

One thing I did not see as part of the debate was price. For a lot less than the price of a D-10 GFI or Sierra (with their standard setups), I can get a Carter with all the "bells and whistles" I need/want (compensators and all).

Ed

"Tuning compensators have nothing to do with improper mechanical operation or design of steel guitars"

Sounds completely false. If the guitar doesn't stay in tune, there's something wrong with it - if mashing a pedal causes it to shift to some other note when the pedal is released, the design is just wrong, to me.

The more descriptions I read of "compensators" the more I firmly believe they are a "chewing gum and wire" fix for a defect.

A note goes up...and it comes back down. If it comes back down to the wrong place, somebody messed up.

A note goes up (or down) and can't be adjusted in tune with other strings. Another defect.

I realize you may find this topic confusing but try to read the next sentences very, very carefully.

Note, what follows only relates to tuning compensators.

Tuning compenstors do NOT affect the strings normally being raised or lowered with the pedals or knee levers. They operate on the strings NOT normally being moved by those pedals or knee levers.

No steel guitar "NEEDS" tuning compensators to operate properly. If you tune everything to 440 (ET), it makes tuning compensators irrelevant and unnecessary. Most steelers use JT or a form of tempered tuning. Some steelers find the use of tuning compensators sounds more pleasing to their ears. Jeff Newman was the first person I ever saw using these.

So tuning compensators are not a "defect". They are a result of a player's tuning choices and preferences. The choice of tuning method is left to the player. I'm not voting on which method of tuning is best, I'm just trying to observe and report what I see.

Know that there is more than one way to tune a steel guitar and I'm sure the members here can stake their favorite positions out and "lobby" for the "best method" 'til the cows come home. I recommend people try different methods and see what works best for them. That's why Peterson VSII tuners come with a wide variety of presets for different types of tuning.

You and others, however, are certainly welcome to continue considering thinking of the use tuning compensators as a band aid for a defect. That is your conclusion, not mine.

[This message was edited by John Fabian on 18 May 2006 at 04:06 AM.]

Hysteresis is when a string is raised and tuned, it returns to pitch everytime. But when it's lowered it returns anywhere from 1 to 10 percent sharp, or worse, depending on the strings variances. When an E string reads 4 cents sharp, change it and most likely it will read a different percentage. If the design of the guitar is at fault, be it keyhead, or gearless as some suggest, than it should always read the same. A player can also have the rare string that returns perfectly. I have experienced this many times, only to discover upon the next weeks string change, it goes right back to returning sharp. If the design mechanics are at fault that should never happen. I believe anyone who concludes this as purely a mechanical problem is wrong.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying its all in the string, just partially. The flaw in their theory is when they assume the string is perfect therefor it must be somewhere in the guitars design. Maybe a return spring, a roller nut, the keyhead, etc. What I am saying is for the past 42 years of my playing life, builders like the ones George mentioned along with my father, Lashley, Crawford, Marrs, Carter, Bruce, Jackson, etc. have been "speculating" at what could be the cause of the hysteresis problem. If George knows the definitive answer he'd be the first.

Just like with the cabinet drop the only solution is to remedy the problem with a return compensator which after the string returns to pitch on the raise, it kicks in on the lowering mechanics of the string by allowing the lowered puller to have a seperate definite stop. It is again cancelled at the touch of the raise. A compensator allows players who can hear hysteresis, no matter how minute, to completely solve that problem within ANY brand of guitar. Compensators have existed for over 36 years now.

John,s post is about interval compensation, not return compensation know as hysteresis. These are two completely different scenarios.

George,

Any builder should try to satisfy the players. Its the players complaints about tuning, tonal, and mechanical problems that prompts them to fix their designs. Most great builders listen to players who experience their guitars problems because of the way their ears have had to develop.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 18 May 2006 at 05:14 AM.]

Let me first start with an analogy you might have noted on your electric guitar. If you pluck a 12th fret harmonic and then fret it, if the note is different you would adjust the bridge. Doing this with all of the strings makes for a staggard looking bridge with parallel frets. But as we fret the guitar things are in tune better. The musical notes to sound right are staggard and not linear.

On your steel tune the following strings and pedals. F#, G#, B, and F# (Chromatic). Also make sure that the G# is in tune when your B pedal raises it to A and similarly the A pedal raises B to C#. Now make sure that the F# strings sound nice with that B note.

Now when you press those pedals or even the A pedal alone, does the resulting C# sound in tune with the F#? If you tune the way most of us tune it should sound sour. Now flat that F# and it should sound better. Thats what a compensator does.

I lower the 1st string F# a 1/2 tone on the LVK. It also rasies the 6th G# to B. It also lowers the 6th to E. I use the lower or raise according to the licks I want to play that day. Ofcourse it goes without saying that it will not do both at the same time.

EVERY pedal steel guitar that I've played has the drop return tuning issue and I've played Emmons PP's, Emmons all pulls, GFI, Mullen, Sho-Bud, Excel (keyless), Zum, Carter. How much is also a variable even between two of the same make. It's not "bad engineering", just something that happens, to some degree. For some, they don't hear it or even realize it's there, to others it is a concern. Along with Franklin's, I've seen the drop return compensators on a Zum and Emmons Legrande's. Other's may use or have used them too???

There is the compensator used to tweak the F#'s so they will be in tune with both the B's and the C#'s.

There is also the compensator used to nudge the E's back to their proper tuning due to the effects of "hysteresis".

Is this correct, or am I way off base?

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Note, what follows only relates to tuning compensators.

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Lets talk about return compensators. How would you descibe their usage/need?

But John Fabian says the compensators have NOTHING to do with the string being raised or lowered; they are used on the OTHER strings.

But then Paul Franklin says that compensators are used to "kick" a ***raised or lowered** string back to where it's supposed to be. Nothing to do with the "static" strings.

Uh, guys - those are two polar opposites. this is why I am completely baffled by this subject - there are continually two completely different stories about why they are needed, and specicially WHAT THEY DO!

It again makes me think it's an "I think I need this" situation rather than something "real". Nobody apparently even agrees on what the darned things do!

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Sorry, but this poor old rookie steeler with 40 years of guitar playing and setup under his belt ain't buying the need for these gadgets...if the guitar is designed/built right to start with.

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Mr Sliff, with 40 years under your belt sir, you have as much experience with what makes a good steel guitar, as anyone else on this forum. And Sir, MORE then most. And Sir...you hit the nail right on the head.

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If George knows the definitive answer he'd be the first.

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George,

A great builder should try to satisfy the players. Its the players complaining about tuning, tonal, and mechanical problems that prompts them to fix their designs. Most great builders listen to players who experience their guitars problems because of the way their ears have had to develop.

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a "chewing gum and wire" fix for a defect

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[This message was edited by George Redmon on 18 May 2006 at 06:44 AM.]