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  A mechanical Issue re:- the Fender PS-210

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Author Topic:   A mechanical Issue re:- the Fender PS-210
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 15 June 2006 05:58 PM     profile     
These are the mods made by Ronnie Bennett..
Note the slot in the transfer lever to accommodate the pedal being used without it moving the connected lever, and the fact that it has 8 pedals and three knee levers on the bottom neck and 8 pedals and 1 knee lever on the top one !!

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quote:
Steel players do it without fretting


basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 15 June 2006 06:02 PM     profile     

basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 15 June 2006 06:06 PM     profile     
More

Ronnie Bennett

Some imposter or other..

Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 15 June 2006 09:58 PM     profile     
That looks so alien to me underneath, and so pretty on top!
Jim Phelps
Member

From: just out of Mexico City

posted 15 June 2006 10:33 PM     profile     
How much of the mechanics are new? It looks brand-new in there. Beautiful steel!
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 16 June 2006 02:49 AM     profile     
Yes b0b, she's a typical woman !!!!


Jim to answer your question, this is the "before she was doctored" view..

And this is one with 'Original Factory Fitted Knee Levers :-

Jim Phelps
Member

From: just out of Mexico City

posted 16 June 2006 03:06 AM     profile     
Looks great in both "before" and "after" shots, to me..... you got an exceptional steel.
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 16 June 2006 03:39 AM     profile     
There were three points to the exercise.

1. To go beyond what Fender said was possible, i.e. 8 pedals and 1 knee lever OR any combination as long as it added up to a total of 9 changes. For instance 6 pedals and 3 Knee Levers.
The problem this creates is that you're committed to that number of changes on each neck, it (Supposedly) cant be a different number on the other neck.
I found a way of adding knee levers to one of the necks whist still retaining a different configuration on the other..


2. To leave the guitar in a "Visibly" factory condition. This is where Ronnie Bennett entered the fray.
His objective was to stay as close to the ORIGINAL Fender parts, construction and especially LOOKS.
Only 3 holes were drilled in the guitar, the knee levers were mounted using the guitar's captive nut and rail system the rods were drilled and tapped and the hooks were constructed as per Fender's method. The Connectors to the knee levers were made from nylon as per original and the rod ends were "Liberated" from my Fender parts box. (Actually taken from a 9 pedal 400 bought from a pawn shop in Hawaii last year)

3. To have the guitar ready to play the opening tune at the Birmingham Symphony Hall concert on Sunday June 18th.
This would probably be the first time a PS-210 has appeared 'Live' in the United Kingdom, maybe even Europe.

It has been estimated by engineering friends of mine, that Fender probably spent between $100,000 and $150,000
tooling up for this guitar's production..
Most of the steel components are 'Case Hardened' and the castings are 'Die-cast'
.........................................
All of This is of immense importance to the many PS-210 owners around the world !!
(Please treat that statement as an attempt at humour)
...............................................

One other point, if you're interested in the PS-210, there is a group at http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/FenderPS210/

If YOU know someone with one, PLEASE put them in touch with the group. We're trying to locate the remaining ones.
Of the 14 produced and the prototype, only 7 have been accounted for.

With apologies to 'Gene Fields :-

quote:
In 1968 I was asked to design a new pedal guitar from scratch. The only guidelines I had were to build it better and lighter, and to include knee levers. At that time, a major complaint on pedal guitars was the large 7/8" diameter of the changer fingers, causing a high frequency rattle or singing sound. This was caused by the string vibrating against the finger just in front of the intonation point. To eliminate this required a small radius which would increase string breakage. Most players today have either grown up with this problem or have gotten used to it. Some manufacturers, including G.F.I., have dropped the diameter to 3/4" without a big sacrifice in breakage. The reason I am elaborating this point is because it led to most of the other radical changes as follows.To eliminate this problem I moved the changer to the opposite end of the instrument. This allowed me to use a small diameter bridge, producing a much more solid sound, without the high frequency vibration.

This led to another problem, locating the keys on the right end (from the player) of the instrument would create a shallow angle at the bridge, and sacrifice of sustain and tone. To avoid this meant using something other than keys. This led to a Keyless tuning system used on the P.S. 210, it was not just to be different.After the experimenting with the Keyless system, we discovered more advantages due to the elimination of the excess string length.

a. No movement of string across the nut.

b. Shorter pedal action due to less string length to stretch.

c. More sustain- the section of string inside the key housing vibrates, absorbing energy from the main playing section.

In order to have a tuning knob large enough for good leverage, every other string was mounted in a different row. This allowed the knob to be almost two times the width of the string spacing.The next major obstacle was shaft deflection in the changer. To avoid this I used a flat knife edge plate, similar to my one contribution to the 800 and 2000 Fender pedal guitars. The lowering Lever had a "V" groove to mate with the knife edge plate. The raise lever mated with the lowering lever with the "V" groove system creating a changer with two moving parts per string. All the other linkage was designed to operate on this knife edge principal, with the exception of the bell crank and the pedal. By using the knife edge system, it was not too difficult to add a shift system that would transfer all pedals and knee levers from one neck to the other, offering 9 pedals per neck, up to 4 could be knee levers as long as the total was nine. This was accomplished with one moving part. It worked well as long as you did not shift while pressing a pedal. If this happened, it would not shift. However, if you released the pedal and started over, it worked fine. The neck switch was operated by the shift lever. The pickups were designed with 12 magnets for 10 strings. The two outer magnets were closer than the rest, this pushed the magnetic field a little higher plus, the coil was a little longer. It was my belief, that the Ist and last string of a pickup did not have the same environment as the strings in the middle. The end results proved this to be true, however, it was often mistaken for a 12 string pickup. These pickups were wound much heavier than the earlier Fender pedal guitar pickups, creating a fuller tone while retaining good high frequency response.

The first model of this instrument was Hydraulic. A 36" cylinder was used to drive a H" with a mechanical lever, to drive the larger cylinder, by using a large cylinder to drive a smaller one. The unused portion becomes a reservoir, this allows a closed system-to be used for each pedal. No master cylinder needed. Less connections - Less leakage. The system worked well as the weight of your foot and a small amount of added pressure would move 10 strings. This system was dropped for two reasons, one being cost. This was 1969 and our cost then, would have been $400.00. For us to make a profit, and the dealer to make a profit, the price of the instrument would doubled from it's original list price of $1500.00. The second reason was not knowing how to run pedal rods and knee levers through the bottom of an oil pan without having leaks. As no hydraulic system is leak proof forever, and some musicians like to wear white occasionally.

The hydraulic frame was all welded aluminum, with milled end plates welded to aluminum angle rails front and back, to support a maple neck. I was so impressed with the tone of this combination, I wanted to use it in the production model. I mounted the bridge directly to the frame, the maple neck was then mounted tight against the bridge. The nut was mounted on the maple neck. This allowed me to use the aluminum frame for tone coloring while the bridge to nut length was controlled by the maple neck.

The changer was operated by set screw bars similar to the multi-cord. However, the system that pulled the set screw bars was held in a fixed plane and could not pull off center, a major problem with the multi-cord, was on the first pedal guitar ever designed. The Harden Pros. Patent was issued in 1932. This set screw bar system allows up to 10 strings per pedal and as many raise and lower positions as there pedals, as each pedal has no effect on what the other pedals can do. To change a tuning simply remove a tuning screw from one hole and put it in another and adjust. Compensating and stops can also be accomplished with this system. One important feature it doesn't have is balanced pulls as the string moving the farthest will start moving first and in most cases this will act as a natural 1/2 stop.

Extrusions were used for both the frame and pedal board. "T" slots were extruded in both pedal board and frame to accept a 10-32 square nut. This allowed both pedals and knee levers to be moved right or left to suit the players personal taste.

Another advantage of this system was the fact that the pedal spots were built into the changer, eliminating the possibility of thermal expansion and contraction in the changer.

Like most prototypes, mistakes were made. If the tuning and linkage system was not adjusted properly, some parts could fall out of place. This was corrected with a simple bracket. Another mistake was in the adjustable lowering springs. These adjustments offered a small advantage to people with a little mechanical knowledge. Most problems were caused by adjusting first, then reading the manual.

This instrument was the first Fender pedal guitar with knee levers. When the orders came in with many different pedal set ups and pedal-knee lever combinations, Fender marketing and manufacturing decided not to become custom builders. At this time all pedal guitars were dropped. (PS 210, 400, 800,1000, 2000) I was very disappointed as I felt my whole future was at stake with this instrument, however, I could not blame them as the pedal guitar does not belong on a production line.


Note Gene's last remark, Other than the Fender 400 -1000 - 800 - 2000 range, how many others were mass produced ?

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quote:
Steel players do it without fretting


Al Marcus
Member

From: Cedar Springs,MI USA

posted 17 June 2006 03:04 PM     profile     
Basil- I played one a weekend in Phoneix around 1972. I realy liked it and it played great for me.

I just couldn't afford it at that time for $1500. a Emmons D10 was $1000.

I almost went on a limb and was going to buy it anyway as I played an Gibson Electra-Harp pre-WWII model with the same type of changer.

You could change pedals tunings without tools in a couple minutes. Just the screwdriver. It was beautiful birdseye maple and had a great tone.

Way ahead of it's time. I was always sorry that Fender didn't carry the ball with it. It would have been a Winner at that point in time...al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/


Jim Sliff
Member

From: Hermosa Beach California, USA

posted 17 June 2006 06:41 PM     profile     
That is a just a wonderful mechanical work of art. That's a pedal steel that's truly designed from an engineering standpoint. here's a wonderful elegance about the whole design.

Being in SoCal, I've always had in the back of my mind the hope that I would stumble on one of the few produced. I would guess the liklihood is higher of them being somewhere in Orange or LA county than anywhere else.

Probably never happen - but as a long-time Fender guy, it would be one of those "Holy Grail" items to me.

Mike Perlowin
Member

From: Los Angeles CA

posted 01 August 2006 04:28 AM     profile     
Blackie Taylor used to have one in his shop. I assume he knows where it is today.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

Jim Sliff
Member

From: Hermosa Beach California, USA

posted 01 August 2006 05:51 AM     profile     
Mike, I remember seeing it - at the time, I didn't think a lot about it (it was during my previous attempt at steel, with my Fender/Maverick, and I was there buying strings and asking for advice).

There's a chance I need to drive out that way today - if so, I'll drop in and see if it's there, at least take some pics if it is. Shoot, I need strings as well - thanks for mentioning him!

Danny James
Member

From: Columbus, Indiana, USA

posted 01 August 2006 08:15 AM     profile     
Yes I believe it was Al Marcus who first informed me and sent a picture of one of these guitars.

They are a really nice set up and it also proves there are concept capabilities beyond what is being produced today.

However I still think a much more simple setup than even what this guitar has can be done. And with the capability of completely changing the tuning setups within a matter of minutes. Where one does not have to have a degree in Engineering in order to understand the mechanics of how the guitar is built in order to make the tuning changes himself.

In other words keep it simple yet efficient and cost effective. With our modern technology I believe it can be done.

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