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Author
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Topic: Watch out for this string popper!
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Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 26 June 2006 02:12 PM
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Look how far the 3rd string tuner is out from the nut. Has to be at least 4 1/2 inches!  It's on the 'bay now.[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 26 June 2006 at 02:13 PM.] |
C. Christofferson
Member From: Utah, USA
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posted 26 June 2006 02:41 PM
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Be sure and wear your safety glasses while playing. Looks like a good candidiate for keyless/// |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 26 June 2006 02:45 PM
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Curt, most older "long keyhead" guitars have exactly the same characteristics. This keyhead was designed (as most of them used to be) so that it could be used on both 10 and 12-string guitars. |
Ron Steenwijk
Member From: Greensburg,PA
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posted 26 June 2006 05:18 PM
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quote:
most older "long keyhead" guitars have exactly the same characteristics
Might I add that most strings pop at the changer and not at the keyhead.I had one of these keyheads and of course strings popped at the keyhead but most did at the changer side.
Not every steel pops strings when it uses a keyhead like that.Ron ------------------
Click here to E-mail us.Karen Kaylee Records
KRS D-10 10x8, KRS SD10 4x6 EMMONS P/P S10 3x5 Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Ultra 15" Peavey All Tube 15"
Fender Twin Reverb Hilton Volumepedal
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Jim Palenscar
Member From: Oceanside, Calif, USA
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posted 26 June 2006 05:22 PM
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Actually, if i'm not mistaken, that is a BMI (also known of as an Erickson in the Great Lakes region) and I have a 10 and a 12 string like that at the shop and neither of them have shown the tendency to break strings any more than any other brand. |
Don Barnhardt
Member From: North Carolina, USA
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posted 26 June 2006 08:29 PM
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Are you plugging keyless again? |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 26 June 2006 08:58 PM
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The pitch of a string is determined by three factors: the nut-to-bridge length, the gauge, and the tension between the nut and bridge. The length of string behind the nut has no effect whatsoever on the tension required to get a given pitch. The extra stretch provided by the extra length behind the nut merely means the key will have to be turned slightly further to reach the desired tension and pitch. Also, the throw of a raise pedal or lever will be a little longer, because it has to stretch both the length between the bridge and nut as well as the length behind the nut. But the final tension of the raised string will be the same - if it weren't there would be a different pitch. And at any rate the 3rd string is only longer by the distance between two adjacent key posts - no big deal. Compared to a standard 10-string, all the strings on a 12 string starting with string 6 have longer throws. Do they break more often? No.------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 27 June 2006 02:12 AM
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Curt, whats the point ? again.... I have owned a dozen or more Steels, none had a key head like that one..which was designed to be used with a 12 or 10.. this is really getting old.. It was fun a month ago.. I think everyone here knows you LOVE Keyless and feel that all KEY HEAD Guitars are useless.. Problem is clear to me.. I've watched Buddy, Loyd, Paul, Tommy, Doug, etc etc etc play there specific Steels for multiple decades now. If they thought guitars with Key heads were a problem I am certain they would have told us, and changed. Those guys have clout.... give it up buddy... t |
Fred Shannon
Member From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas
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posted 27 June 2006 02:54 AM
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I really can't think of a single string that I have broken at the nut or tuning machines. Just another plug for keyless and man it's gettin' to be old hat. I have a Williams keyless that breaks strings if left on too long. Not a valid argument at best. Give it up.
Phred------------------
"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904 |
Ernie Pollock
Member From: Mt Savage, Md USA
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posted 27 June 2006 05:04 AM
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Have had a couple of BMI's like that, never noticed any more string breakage with them that the shorter ones? Ernie  http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm ------------------
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Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 27 June 2006 05:22 AM
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quote:
"I really can't think of a single string that I have broken at the nut or tuning machines."
Same for me.If you are breaking strings at the nut, you probably have a seized roller, or a burr on the peg. |
Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 27 June 2006 06:27 AM
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quote:
I think everyone here knows you LOVE Keyless and feel that all KEY HEAD Guitars are useless..
Not exactly true. Actually, I love a Carter with their low profile head design. quote:
The extra stretch provided by the extra length behind the nut merely means the key will have to be turned slightly further to reach the desired tension and pitch. Also, the throw of a raise pedal or lever will be a little longer, because it has to stretch both the length between the bridge and nut as well as the length behind the nut.
So, let me see if I get this right. The 3rd string has to stretch farther to get up to pitch, yet does not contribute to string breakage?
 I guess we should write another chapter in physics!
Of course the strings usually break at the changer. Why wouldn't they? That is where the stress is. Especially when you are pulling extra length, such as in the above example.
quote:
Curt, whats the point ?
Just to see everyone's reaction......... Let's not get too serious on this one guys. BMI has always made a very good guitar.  [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 27 June 2006 at 06:53 AM.]
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Fred Justice
Member From: Globe Arizona, Copper Capital Of The World
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posted 27 June 2006 06:53 AM
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Actually Curt, that long distance will help minimize string breakage but more importantly it actually helps in the strings returning on the money.
I know this for a fact from playing that old Rus-ler for 18 years. It had a key head so long I had to get a bus pass to tune the 5th & 6th strings but stayed in tune better than any other PSG I ever owned and almost never broke a string.------------------
Fred Justice,
Fred's Music www.fredjusticemusic.com
Rains Steel Guitars
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 27 June 2006 08:28 AM
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quote:
So, let me see if I get this right. The 3rd string has to stretch farther to get up to pitch, yet does not contribute to string breakage?
Yes, the extra string length behind the nut requires extra twist of the key, and extra throw for the pedals and levers (for all of the strings on this guitar, not just the 3rd) to acheive the same tension between the bridge and nut. But that extra throw is absorbed by the extra stretch provided by the extra string length behind the nut. So that extra length is both the reason for the extra pull, and the reason the tension remains the same (over the whole string on both sides of the nut, unless the roller binds). The longer string requires more stretch to come up to tension, but the extra length absorbs that extra stretch. The tension over the whole string is the same on this guitar as on any guitar with the same bridge-to-nut length, with the same gauge string, tuned to the same pitch. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand the physics involved. Ask Ed Packer. If the tension is different, the pitch will be different. If the pitch is the same, the tension will be the same. That is simple physics. Study it. |
C. Christofferson
Member From: Utah, USA
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posted 27 June 2006 12:04 PM
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One 'advantage' of a head over keyless (has this been mentioned in another thread) is the ability to 'roll up' a lot of string length around the pin so when the string breaks at the changer, more string can be 'fishlined' out saving having to buy a new one several times over. Savings of a whopping $3-$4....Not to mention the possibility of strumming across those strings behind the nut for the sound effect.
(This doesn't mean i wouldn't choose keyless)
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Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 27 June 2006 12:10 PM
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quote:
The tension over the whole string is the same on this guitar as on any guitar with the same bridge-to-nut length, with the same gauge string, tuned to the same pitch.
My point is this: The longer the total string length, (from changer to tuning device) = the greater tension required to bring it up to pitch. The greater the tension, the more string breakage. This is why most keyed guitars max out at a 24 1/4 scale. And also why the Emmons short keyhead is not as hard on the 3rd string G#. This has been thoroughly explained by Ed, in previous posts. This is not so much physics, as it is common sense. [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 27 June 2006 at 12:12 PM.] |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 27 June 2006 12:38 PM
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quote:
The 3rd string has to stretch farther to get up to pitch, yet does not contribute to string breakage?
The important number is stress per unit length. Ed agrees. And if so ...
quote:
... that long distance will help minimize string breakage but more importantly it actually helps in the strings returning on the money.
Very interesting.
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Bill Moore
Member From: Manchester, Michigan
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posted 27 June 2006 01:30 PM
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If there were inherent problems with this style of keyhead, wouldn't owners of MSA clasic guitars be complaining about it? I never noticed it to be a problem with the MSA that I owned.  |
Kenny Brown
Member From: Auburn, Alabama, USA
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posted 27 June 2006 02:17 PM
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for an instrument(pedal steel guitar) to be as young as it is, I imagine a lot more could be changed about it regardless of the incredible quality there is out there regarding the issue in this thread, cabinet drop, or any of the other laws of physics out there.
it's a good thing everyone has their own opinion. this forum would be pretty boring otherwise!
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 27 June 2006 02:53 PM
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Sorry, Curt, you're flat wrong. For a string of a given length (bridge-to-nut) and gauge, you cannot increase the tension without increasing the pitch. Period. That means when you tune two strings of the same bridge-to-nut length and gauge to the same pitch, their tensions will be the same. It doesn't matter if one string is nailed to the nut, and the other has two feet behind the nut. You are confusing distance the string has to be pulled with tension. Yes, the string with more length behind the nut will take a longer pull to stretch it and get it up to tension. But the tension between the bridge and the nut will be the same, if the pitch is the same. Or maybe you are confusing "work" with tension. Work is equal to distance times force. So if the distance is longer, and the force is the same (?), maybe it takes more work to pull the longer string up to tension. You have to stretch more string, maybe that takes more work. On the other hand, the stretch is spread over more string, so maybe it doesn't take more work.Can somebody help us out of this impass with some authority? This seems so simple and common sense, it is hard to imagine how someone could not see this. I'm also not sure I agree with Ed that a longer string helps with the breakage. The longer stretchable length behind the nut would seem to cushion the pull, at least at the keyhead end. But if the tension is the same at the changer (as it must be to get the same pitch), which is where the breakage almost always occurs, then it's all a wash, and breakage is the same. |
Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 27 June 2006 03:08 PM
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Ok David,
I'll let Michael Johnstone try to explain it to you.
quote:
Michael Johnstone
Member
From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
posted 03 December 2002 10:21 AM profile send email edit
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The strings are easier to change - and just about all keyless guitars are something like this - you just hook the string on at the changer end and bring the other end up and wrap it around a small allen head bolt about 1/2 wrap,tighten down the bolt,bend the excess string back and forth a couple times to break it off and the string is on. Then you tune up the string either with the same allen key you used to tighten down the bolt or like on my Sierra and also GFIs work like this - you can tune the string with your fingers using little knurled buttons which look like the fine tuners on a violin. If I break a string onstage,I can have a new one on and be playing again within a verse and a chorus.As far as scales lengths go,most keyed guitars max out at 24.5" before you run into excessive string breakage because the section of string under tension(changer to tuning post)is as much as 27" on the middle strings of a keyed guitar.Conversely on a keyless design,say on a 25" scale,the section of string under tension is only 25" in total. So there is actually more tension on most of the strings on a keyed 24.5" guitar than all the strings of a keyless 25" guitar. Less tension means less string breakage and a shorter pedal pull/string stretch to achieve a given pitch change - so strings last longer and don't break nearly as much.Plus all the strings are the same length with no overhang past the roller nut which translates into zero unwanted overtones that many keyed guitars display and most guys damp out with foam rubber or plastic tubing.Not to mention that harmonics are easier to get,high register stuff is easier to play in tune and the tone is just fundamentally more pure and phat.Lightweight - compact - stays in tune for months - you can't knock it out of tune just by taking it out of the case - it's just a better design from every angle you want to talk about. C'mon guys - On with the future!
-MJ-
Read this part again. Slowly.
quote:
As far as scales lengths go,most keyed guitars max out at 24.5" before you run into excessive string breakage because the section of string under tension(changer to tuning post)is as much as 27" on the middle strings of a keyed guitar.
quote:
Can somebody help us out of this impass with some authority? This seems so simple and common sense, it is hard to imagine how someone could not see this.
My sentiments exactly. BTW, Crow is tastier baked with seasoned salt! [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 27 June 2006 at 03:14 PM.] |
Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 27 June 2006 03:21 PM
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[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 27 June 2006 at 03:21 PM.] |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 27 June 2006 03:32 PM
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Curt,
Have you checked out anafranil recently ?
Many steel players that used to be controlled by there obsessions with obscure pointless details are now leading healthy productive musical lives ! In other words... lighten up fella ! The keyhead thing you are stuck on is making you seem like a real nut. Bob |
Rick Batey
Member From: England
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posted 27 June 2006 03:38 PM
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“Some authority”.. well, I’m here to learn about steel guitars, not pass information, but I’m a trained violin maker and fretted guitar maker, and my two penn’orth (English two cents) is this...David is exactly, precisely right. And I couldn’t summarize the situation better than he already has above, but just for the heck of it... tension on a guitar string is a matter of three things, and three things only: 1) nut/bridge distance; 2) string mass per unit length (gauge for short, though manufacturers differ on wound strings, but no need to get into that) and 3) pitch. Yes, you could indeed build an experimental plank guitar with an extended peghead and two spring tension gauges hanging off the bridge, with two E strings tuned to E, one tuner close to the nut, one tuner three feet further away.. and the gauges would read exactly the same. Michael J surely has a lifetime of great experience but I can only surmise that, unless I misunderstand him, the effect he implies is a result of some fine point of PSG design that I am unfamiliar with, perhaps the low string breakage effect of having two smooth rollers at each string’s end rather than having a nut and a sharp-cornered regular tuner post at one end - which can be, as we all know, a weak point for string breakage on any guitar. Rick |
Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 27 June 2006 04:00 PM
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quote:
I’m here to learn about steel guitars, not pass information, but I’m a trained violin maker and fretted guitar maker, and my two penn’orth (English two cents) is this...
Thats cool Rick. One thing to remember is: a violin or fretted guitar does not have a pulling device (changer) to pull strings up to pitch. And we are talking about the 3rd string G#'s tension and breaking points.
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Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 27 June 2006 04:11 PM
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quote:
And we are talking about the 3rd string G#'s tension and breaking points.
The 3rd string G# doesn't have a different set of physics than the other strings, Curt.
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Rick Batey
Member From: England
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posted 27 June 2006 04:14 PM
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Thanks Curt, it's been a while since I broke out the Parsons/White Tele! Hang in there my friend |
Ron Steenwijk
Member From: Greensburg,PA
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posted 27 June 2006 04:19 PM
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Curt,I cannot see the benefit you will have by taking this to the max.You like Keyless and there are a lot of people that don't.Everybody has his own taste for things.I think it's best to respect people for what they want and know(I don't say that you disrespect people).
We are here on this forum to learn and teach about the steelguitar,because there are a lot of people that want to learn to play steel guitar.Most of them don't want to pay a lot of money for something they might not ever learn.I understand when people say...let me try on a cheap one first.
BMI guiatrs are very well build and play great.The price is something that a newbie can afford.Your comments might scare people in buying a steel. "Our steelguitar community is getting smaller every year" We should do everything in our powers to encourage to pick up steel playing.Wether for fun or try to become a Pro. Ron
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Click here to E-mail us.Karen Kaylee Records
KRS D-10 10x8, KRS SD10 4x6 EMMONS P/P S10 3x5 Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Ultra 15" Peavey All Tube 15"
Fender Twin Reverb Hilton Volumepedal
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 27 June 2006 04:44 PM
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Thanks for trying, Rick. But it looks like we are still up against a brick wall of ... well of something. Curt, your "authority" Mike seems to have the same misguided ideas about string tension you do, with no better physical explanation. Can't say I agree with everything else he says either. Sorry, it sounds like the blind leading the blind. I trust the violin maker. He seems to know some real physics, and even suggests the proper experiment to settle the issue. Hang a force scale over the changer and see how much force it takes to pull the 3rd string up to G# (or any other string up to a given pitch). Check it out, and eat the crow your own self. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 27 June 2006 at 04:45 PM.] |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
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posted 27 June 2006 04:45 PM
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quote:
everything in our powers to encourage to pick up steel playing. Wether for fun or try to become a Pro.
Amen to becoming a pro musician! Music is a much safer vocation than civil engineering for someone who thinks that there is less string tension on a keyless guitar. |
Damien Odell
Member From: Springwood, New South Wales, Australia
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posted 27 June 2006 04:57 PM
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I have a BMI the same as that one, and I've never had a problem with string breakage. |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 27 June 2006 06:18 PM
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Michael Johnstone. Ha, ha. Thats supposed to be an authority? Ever heard of Duane Marrs or Paul Franklin Sr. ?[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 27 June 2006 at 06:20 PM.] |
Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 27 June 2006 06:33 PM
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Kevin:Who said Michael was an authority? He is just a great player who happens to have a lot of knowledge, coupled with common sense, about pedal steels. Ed Packard is another fine example. Don't let this BMI keyhead ruin your day! Duane who?..... Paul who?
LOL
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Brett Anderson
Member From: Arizona, USA
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posted 27 June 2006 06:38 PM
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I tend to always go with what the molecular biologists say. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 27 June 2006 08:55 PM
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Brett, you're crackin' me up, man. I just wish they had taught me the right stuff in gradgit school. Then I wouldn't have to think so hard on my own. ------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards |
Duane Reese
Member From: Salt Lake County, Utah
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posted 27 June 2006 09:48 PM
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quote:
Curt, whats the point ?
quote:
Just to see everyone's reaction.........
That, my friends, is the whole point right there. Curt is wasting your time. Hopefully people will stop paying attention to these redundant keyhead debates, and b0b will close this thread. |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 27 June 2006 09:48 PM
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We have been fortunate enough to have a few real honest to goodness genious'come along to provide us with great steel guitars inovations. Zane Beck was such a man. I had a D10 that Zane built for me and it was a fine guitar and I never had any more problems breaking strings on it than any others I have owned. He was a wonderful person who built great instruments and was a great friend to me and I still miss him very much.
Jerry |
Hans Holzherr
Member From: Ostermundigen, Switzerland
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posted 28 June 2006 04:04 AM
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quote:
David is exactly, precisely right.
Of course he is. I have several years of university physics under my belt, but I almost feel silly stating that because the physics involved is more highschool level or lower....  Hans
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Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 28 June 2006 05:08 AM
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You guys are getting way too serious here. My original observation was that the BMI keyhead will have a tendency to break the 3rd string more often than a standard keyhead, where the tuning key is in the normal position.
quote:
I have several years of university physics under my belt, but I almost feel silly stating that because the physics involved is more highschool level or lower....
Wow!.......... Very interesting. BTW Jerry, I too liked Zane Beck and this is not a slam on him, but just as technology evolves, so does the steel guitar. For instance, what builder still uses a cable pulling system? Yes, the longer headed guitars will have a tendency to break strings more often, than the shorter headed ones. (Not talking about keyless) Just by the very design. That is my point here. And it does not takes years of university physics to realize that.(I would hope not!) ------------------
I'd rather be opinionated, than apathetic! [This message was edited by Curt Langston on 28 June 2006 at 05:09 AM.]
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John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
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posted 28 June 2006 05:52 AM
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[quote]Our steelguitar community is getting smaller every year[quote]Your opinion based on .....????? |
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