|
Author
|
Topic: 5th Knee Lever
|
Wayne D. Clark
Member From: Wisconsin, USA
|
posted 28 September 2006 07:56 PM
profile
The standard set up for most E9th S10's is a 3/4 arrangement. However if you have an arrangement of 3/5 what would the 5th KL effect, there are probably variations to this answer depending on players preferences, however I'm thinking of the most common or Standard (if there is any)effedted string or strings.Dedert Rose 3/4 (is a 3/5)
Goodrich 120
Nashvill 400 |
Mike Shefrin
Member From: New York
|
posted 28 September 2006 08:17 PM
profile
That's a good question. Of course it's entirely a matter of personal preference but I would say the fifth lever would be the B to Bb lower.When Jimmy Crawford built my JCH steel for me, I asked him the same question since the copedant I submitted to him only had four knee levers and later I wanted to add a fifth but wasnt sure what change to add. He recommended the B to Bb change. |
Calvin Walley
Member From: colorado city colorado, USA
|
posted 28 September 2006 08:21 PM
profile
my 5th knee lever changes my B to A#------------------
Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400 |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 28 September 2006 10:41 PM
profile
That's the one that most people add. |
Al Terhune
Member From: Newcastle, WA
|
posted 28 September 2006 11:55 PM
profile
Instead of using my C pedal, I use my LKV for my E to F# raise, which works well for me because I like to be able to have my A pedal down and work the E raise up and down independent of each other, where you don't get that advantage when they're both on the C. I think you, Bobby, said you have this, too, but wouldn't recommend it. I love it. It's also practical because with your foot on the A or A/B, it's much easier to engage that LKV lever. Just an all-around winner for me.Al |
Jack Anderson
Member From: Scarborough, ME
|
posted 29 September 2006 04:30 AM
profile
I'm with b0b and Al. I find it much easier to hit P1+LKV (or P2+LKV, or P1+P2 and "bounce" on LKV) than to use the traditional C pedal with A and/or B. The B->Bb change is nice, but I have it on a pedal. If you put E->F# on LKV, then you can put B->Bb on the C pedal, since P1+LKV duplicate the usual C pedal change. |
Per Berner
Member From: Skövde, Sweden
|
posted 29 September 2006 04:38 AM
profile
Couldn't agree more with Jack and Al. I always used to have E-F# on my LKV, and I really miss it on the P/P Emmons. But very soon my incoming new Zum with 4+5 will put things right again.------------------
´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, ca '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, Hybrid Zum coming soon, Peavey Nashville 1000 |
Robbie Daniels
Member From: Casper, Wyoming, USA
|
posted 29 September 2006 08:15 AM
profile
I agree I have used just A & B pedals with the E to F# pull on knee lever, but I prefer to use my RKR to pull the E to F#. My 5th pedal LKV raises my first F# to G and my 7th F# to G#------------------
Carter D12, MSA D12, MSA S12, 1956 Rickenbacker D8, Evans FET 500LV, Evans SE200 |
David Wren
Member From: Placerville, California, USA
|
posted 29 September 2006 08:17 AM
profile
Me too (or is that 4?)... only I perfer using my LKR to raise the E->F#, use my LKV to lower Es->D#. I have had this copedant since 1970, so not much chance of me changing now  Wayne, if you don't have the Bs->Bb, you will want it. ------------------
Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; NV 112; Fender Twin Custom 15 ('65 reissue); Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box www.ameechapman.com
[This message was edited by David Wren on 29 September 2006 at 08:19 AM.]
|
Brint Hannay
Member From: Maryland, USA
|
posted 29 September 2006 08:38 AM
profile
Unspoken here is what the 4 knees do! It's certainly a fair assumption that three of them are 1) 4 & 8 lower to Eb, 2) 4 & 8 raise to F, 3) 2nd lower to D/C# and 9 lower to C#. But what about the fourth one? Has the "Franklin" change ( 1st string raise to G# and 6th lower to F# and/or 2nd raise to E ) become so "standard" that it's assumed? Back in the 80s, when I started, and before, based on the copedents I could find (Winnie Winston book etc.) almost no one had that 1st string change, even if they had 7 or 8 knee levers. |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
|
posted 29 September 2006 09:49 AM
profile
Brint-I had that E to F# pull on a knee lever in 1971. It is a nice move with pedals A and B down, then slowly move from the F# to the Eb Knee. Works a lot in many songs...al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
|
Chris Allen Burke
Member From: Signal Hill, CA
|
posted 29 September 2006 09:55 AM
profile
Here's one no one has mentioned yet. I use my vertical knee to lower 6&3 from G# to G, (as in flat third / minor). That's because I do the B - Bb lower on a 4th pedal. That's so when I move to pedal 4 and flat the 5 I have the option to push up on the vertical to flat the 3rd's as well. This will give me a diminished chord (b3 & b5), or which is also a 7th chord depending on the application.
Keeponapicin' |
Brint Hannay
Member From: Maryland, USA
|
posted 29 September 2006 10:29 AM
profile
Al--I don't know what you were responding to, but I was referring to the 1st string F# to G# raise. I bet that move you mentioned does sound good. |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
|
posted 29 September 2006 01:39 PM
profile
I like the E->F# on LKR as well.
Glad to find there are others who use this change. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 29 September 2006 01:58 PM
profile
The reason that I don't recommend E to F# on a lever is that, to do it, you typically would have to do without the B lower. Jeff Newman convinced me that lowering the B half a step is a very, very valuable change. It should be on a knee lever, and the most common position for it is the vertical.Brint Hannay asked what the fourth lever does. Most people raise their first string, some to G and some to G#. The lever also usually raises the 7th string (to G or G#) or lowers the 6th string (to F#, with a tunable split G against the raise pedal). It might also raise the 2nd string to E. There really is no consensus but most players agree that having some way to get a G note is a Good Idea.
Some people lower their G# strings to G on the fourth lever.
I always say that the standard copedent has 3 knee levers. The various fourth and fifth lever changes haven't reached the critical mass for standardization yet, but lowering the B's to A# on LKV is a very common change. ------------------
 Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog
[This message was edited by b0b on 29 September 2006 at 02:03 PM.] |
Brint Hannay
Member From: Maryland, USA
|
posted 29 September 2006 02:47 PM
profile
I was just noting that everyone had been speaking about what to put on a fifth lever as if the first four were already settled, and wondering if, as seems probable, everyone nowadays takes the 1st string G# raise as a given. I seem to hear it all the time on contemporary recordings, and it's most often listed in the copedents of guitars for sale here on the Forum. I myself don't use it--I put it on my guitar for a while, but never found it useful for me, and took it off. I've been using the same tuning, with 7 E9 knees, for 22 years, and I find the 6th string lower to F# and 3&6 lower to G more useful than the Bb lowers, though I have that too, and like it. Playing on a guitar without all those levers, I find much of what I could do with the Bb lower can be done with B pedal+F lever one fret down, while there's no substitute for the G lowers ( B+C pedal is a poor substitute--in fact, for all but the fastest moves, the G lowers 2 frets up are a perfectly good and more flexible substitute for B+C ).[This message was edited by Brint Hannay on 29 September 2006 at 02:49 PM.] [This message was edited by Brint Hannay on 29 September 2006 at 02:59 PM.] |
Steve Alonzo Walker
Member From: Spartanburg,S.C. USA
|
posted 29 September 2006 02:49 PM
profile
Using A Vertical Knee raising the 7th.string(F#) to a "G" note. Use this with pedals 1&2 down for a nice 7th. chord. |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
|
posted 29 September 2006 07:57 PM
profile
When it comes to KL's and the 1st. str., I've recently gone back to the 3 & 5 that Emmons used in the 90's. My RKL is Lowering str. #6 G# to F# while Raising #1 only from F# to G. Just not enough need for Raising #1 & #2 (1-tone G# & ½-tone E), for me!------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment
|
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
|
posted 30 September 2006 04:19 AM
profile
obviously we can all place a change on a lever or ped which WE feel is a good compromise. And in many cases, it is a compromise.One of the things I do as I sit and ponder where to place another move or if I am anticipating a change is to search the PRO's copendents to see what they are doing and where they place it. If the seasoned PRO's place a change on a lever and it appers to be consistent with many other players then my guess is they have already assigned value to the placement of the movement. I recall Buddy chimed in one or two times on a few of the knee lever threads with his words of wisdom which pretty much stated that you should place a pull on a lever that does not offset or remove another pull, or especially make it redundent. The so called standard 3 and 5 set up came from years of experience. remember,one of the keys to playing our Instrument is to use as little physical and thought energy as possible while playing to get to the music. We may make a change that sounds awesome,but I am thinking by taking it to far away from what those before us have discovered may remove numerous phrases that are also awseome that we haven't even learned to play yet  For me, the so called stock setup is what I focus on. The Music is in there somewhere.. happy Saturday ------------------
------------------
TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite
|
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 30 September 2006 08:13 AM
profile
Lloyd Green has 4 knee levers. |
Mike Shefrin
Member From: New York
|
posted 30 September 2006 08:33 AM
profile
I was thinking the same thought b0b. Look at how much that guy can do with only four.That's one reason I only have four knee levers. I'm not saying that having more than four is bad or anything like that though. Lloyd remains my favorite steel player of em all. What a wonderful player
who has contributed so much beautiful music
to the world. |
Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
|
posted 30 September 2006 08:50 AM
profile
I simply could never engage the AB pedals and a vertical at the same time (to get the minor in the AB pedals position. I guess either my legs are too short or I couldn't adjust the lever to be low enough. So it's no good to me. I don't have one anymore anyway, since both of my Carters are gone. It's back to 8+3 on my Baldwin Sho~Bud and 3+2 on my incumbent Pro 1 (which I will modify to 3+4 shortly with Coop's lever kits.) But I don't see a vertical knee in my future. |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
|
posted 01 October 2006 04:17 AM
profile
With Lloyd, it's not the amount of Knee levers, it's how he plays without any Pedals or Levers. Lloyd is the master at bar slants etc...and has a complete understanding and knowledge of reduntant positions.
Most of us, many of us..got locked into peds AB and a few levers when we first started playing, we learned the easy way..
I don't think it's an accurate assumption or comparison of stating Lloyds use of 4 knee levers...it's what he does without knee levers that matters in his case. t
|
Per Berner
Member From: Skövde, Sweden
|
posted 01 October 2006 05:13 AM
profile
Chris, it all depends on the guitar and how the lever is positioned. On my Emmons Legrande II (which I just sold), the vertical lever was very awkward to use, in the wrong place, at the wrong angle and with a too long throw no matter how I adjusted it. But on my old AVM 3+6 (also sold - WHY??), the LKV was perfectly placed, needed less than an inch of movement, and using it was the most natural thing in the world. (It had two verticals, but the other one was useless...) So don't give up – it can be done! ------------------
´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, ca '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, Hybrid Zum coming soon, Peavey Nashville 1000 |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 01 October 2006 09:33 AM
profile
Whenever I order a new guitar, I give the builder a measurement of the distance from the floor to the fully engaged vertical lever. I do the measurement with my toes on the floor, to the top of my knee.
I think Emmons makes their vertical for tall guys like Buddy. I had to fashion an extender (a block of wood with a velcro strap) to reach the vertical on my '78 Emmons. Since then, I've always sent the builder my measurement when ordering a new guitar.------------------
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog
|
The Steel Guitar Forum
