Now I've learned that I can't say ****** before ***, and that there are other words I can't say, that have been deleted, so that I don't know everything that I can't say, and have to guess. I know that one name is ******.

This is a personal thing with me. Other people are offended by certain words, like *** and ********, but a ban on free speech is offensive to me.
Perhaps I am asking for, as one fo'bro recommended, being 'censured', or having my membership revoked.
Really, I don't think anyone will read this far. So it's much ado about nothing.

To censor is to peak interest in. To exclude certain words or names is to cause confusion.

No, I'm not asking to be censured, and I haven't said anything to be censored, but I ask that those that do be forgiven, elided, and lets all move on.

And I don't approve of jokes about running over animals, virtual or otherwise, in order to prove a point. This 'roadkill' thing is overkill.

There are only 4 words in the censorship filter. None of them have 3 letters or 8 letters, so I suspect that you are typing asterisks to imply that the filter censored your post.

The censorship of the word "possum" was temporary, an inside joke among Forum members.

When people post, we hope that they will conform to a minimum standard of civil conversation. None of the 4 censored words are necessary to make a point about steel guitar. The Steel Guitar Forum is not about free speech. It's about steel guitar.

Please reread the membership agreement :

quote:

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You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not post any material which is knowingly false, defamatory, libelous, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, racist or illegal.

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And I don't want to get into a free speech thing. Just putting in my penny for the 'fun'ction of humor, regardless of the topic.

I have gotten used to keeping unpopular opinions to myself. But words that are offensive to me, like kill, war, and religion when used in the context of politics, are a part of common speech, and folks like me just have to lump it.
I won't ask where censorship stops; we all know it never does.
So I won't add any more to this.

I also think b0b does a marvelous job of managing this site. He has applied some real, solid wisdom in his handling of the complexities of what has become a 5,000+ member forum. That's a big job. Kudos to b0b.

I all seriousness, I may have overreacted to Charlie's original post above. It's a "hot button" topic for me - I get into rant mode pretty quickly whenever someone mentions censorship.

I think that at this point Charlie and I understand each other. And I must apologize for running over virtual possums in public. To be honest, the only examples of the species I've ever seen were dead in the road. Or playing at being dead in the road very convincingly.

I guess I really don't understand possums at all.

Could you sit your 9 year old granddaughter on your knee and peruse the forum.

If not then we have crossed the line.

other topics are ABSOLUTLY going to get people riled :
Totally lefist or rightist politics, guns, religion etc.
SOMETIMES they have been good discussions,
but MUCH more often foodfights veering toward fisticuffs..
This is NOT a forum about politics beyond a
DIRECT correlation to steel players work.
Often that ain't enough justification.

b0b, ( and the others) rightly put the hammer down
on these hot button topics before they get out of hand.
They do more often than not..... So it's :
Hey campers play nice... end of story.

Not ALL threads are ones a 9 year old is EVER
likely to go into with grandpappy,
so they can get a bit more rude.
But polite society needs some limits.
It is true in life, why not here.

Some threads we are likely to expect the young,
or more conservative people coming into.
Face it, the average steeler age's are prone to conservative thought.

~YOU can tell someone they are dead wrong in their logic and their likes here...
and not be obscene, profane or blasphemous about it.

Why say something here that you would
think twice about saying in mixed company...
like your local minister and his wife?

You can tell me I am full of it,
but not that I am full of "expletive deleted"...

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 01 June 2005 at 01:58 PM.]

b0b put possum on the censor list as a friendly gag. He was only playing along with the gag and also trying in a friendly way to suggest that enough is enough with the possum stuff, and he has every right to do so. He also has the right to censor any other words he feels don't belong here!

You know, I don't expect this post is going to win me a lot of friends, and I really don't care. I don't need the kind of friends that are bitching and moaning about this supremely STUPID "issue", and the word "issue " is being kind. More accurately, it's not an issue it's BS.

Where do some of you get the idea that this forum is Burger King where you can have it YOUR way??? Everyone wants it a different way, how is b0b going to do that? Some say the pssm stuff should be allowed, some say it shouldn't be, some are saying humor is a part of life and should be allowed everywhere, others saying that only STEEL stuff should be on the forum. Complaining about censorship of the word "possum", others complaining about allowing it to go on as long as it has.

What do you guys expect? It can't be ALL ways, so you think it should just be the way YOU want it, and screw everyone else?

Good grief, some of you people are just plain nuts! Selling your steel because you don't like how some other steelplayer(s) acted? Maybe they play more instruments than just steel, better find out what else they play and if you have one, sell that too!

Some of you need to grow up!

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 30 May 2005 at 02:19 PM.]

You have summed it up nicely.

Hey, b0b, would you close this thread? I'm embarassed as Hades and promise I won't ever do it again!

Free speech is safe! No problem here.

quote:

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I'll tell you why people need to offer input to a business. I own a business. I make very few of the rules. I do not select the inventory. The customers do that

---

I also own my business. It's been around for 57 years and I've been at the helm for 29 of them. I respectfully disagree with the above quote.

If I let my customers dictate to me how to operate my business, I'd be long gone. I learned that the hard way in my early years. I still have inventory that I cannot sell because I listened to customers. I also used to let customers make the rules, and I became a trading post. I stopped that early on also.

My statements corrolate with the operation of this forum. If b0b listened to everyone and "let the customers dictate" how to run it, we'd have total chaos, and chaos would lead to people jumping ship.

It takes a lot of common sense, knowledge of your trade (inherent and learned), and a sense of fairness to operate successfully.

quote:

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I think I'll add "luminiferous" to the censorship filter.

---

And I actually misued it slightly. It usually refers to the presumed medium through which light and radio waves travel:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=luminiferous

I meant it in terms of a big endless sea in which anything can be floated. But I agree it is a dangerous word. Like "onomatopoeia". Or "p0$$um". Perhaps it should be filtered.

quote:

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If b0b listened to everyone and "let the customers dictate" how to run it, we'd have total chaos

---

Hmmm, in other words, I guess it would be like the inmates running the asylum, huh?

Lem

[This message was edited by Lem Smith on 30 May 2005 at 06:00 PM.]

I imagine what chaos would occur if it was crabs that took over and not possums...

Humor is "humor" and we have a section for it, some of the humor doesn't interest me, so I don't read it, doesn't seem like such a big deal.

I to ran a Field mechanicle service for years, and lived by the rule of "treating the customer the way I wanted to be treated", but I still had to set rules, and guide lines, to avoid utter chaos.

I don't think I use the censored words, but with out some control, it would turn into utter chaos!!

b0b, for what it's worth, you have my vote!

Take the caps lock off!!

We all could tolerate more possums if you weren't SCREAMIN' IT AT US !!

That combined with community constraint, reasonable moderation, makes for a forum that will pass the test of time.

b0b's machiavellian "availability", is perhaps the biggest asset.

I'm a veteran of many "anonymous" boards, where I learned how to maintain identity where there is none, deal with a "gallery" of anonymous peanuts, skirt legal intervention, and maintain "civilization". It's no small feat. I spent a few years on the " ***Live" Forums put out by many big newspapers, and learned how to type 80 insults per minute inbetween it all..

Without foolproof user registration, or reasonable moderation, lines of community can still be maintained, but the bandwith can be staggering, and the archives must be flushed, and are relatively useless thereby.

Congrats to b0b.

My participation is perhaps slowing down, as most all my "Uncle Eric" stories have been told. I had to jam 26 years of it into three years or so. I point people I run into or other interested parties to different things in the archives for my "blogging". I think it's an important medium for "blogging" of some of us, especially the "really important" (which I am not.)

There were years when I "hid" in a three piece critter club band, and made money for my house. I played balls out with three to five bands when my day job took a dump, replaced my worn out PIII, and now, as I'm getting older and older, I leave possibilities for a years long digression, as much as a "flowering", though I doubt the latter.

I like what I've found here, for fellowship, learning, and sharing. Other than the occaisonal bar/band fight, or humorous thing befalling me, I don't have all that much left to write about. Maybe another "Meeting My Muse" installment..

Sometimes, like in the "Tremendous Tunin' Question", I've felt like I had to pull out the stops and go for what I believed, for the good of myself, ( and newer confused players) and letting my "temper" go a titch... I'm sure it got "out there" and I'm glad b0b let it "get by". I got to put in my two cents, and then some.

I remember well the "b0b Trial" (Sierra and Deputies et al vs Ericeaux Maleaux Thibedeaux Flambeaux.) It was carried out on a forum that had less civilisation, and ended up in some humorless clown suing for millions of dollars over some incorrigible salesman's (and his jackal minions')happyfaced jibes ( and losing). That's what happens without censorship.. Fun, and exhillarating, but temporary..

Sometimes it takes a while for the individual to understand what all is going on here, on this "The" "Steel Guitar Forum".

My only suggestion is that b0b continue tempering his "moderation" with personal communication with the "principals" of things that are going against either his, or other's sense of propriety.

I don't understand why I've gotten a small fraction of the "emails" that I have, and most have been of the most positive kind. Some seem to get "floods"..

Thanks b0b, and others for letting me be part of this, and meet others that feel similarly grateful.

None of us ever know what's coming around the corner..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 31 May 2005 at 10:20 PM.]

Somewhere, I'd forgotten that I used to read political posts in AOL chat rooms, to try and get the pulse of the country (a chat room is a poor place to look for that). The chaos, the cussing, the insults--well, I'd try to inject some humor, but eventually I just quit altogether. It was no fun, and nothing like the Forum, which was a breath of fresh air when I discovered it.

In an email to John Daugherty, who was kind enough to lend a little support to my free speech rant, I told him that I re-read my original post, and wondered 'What's de motor wid' him?' I don't know what pushed my button that day, but after receiving 10 'Notification to your topic' per day, over the last several days, it became obvious that I had chosen a poor place to object to the lack of free speech. There is no lack here; people speak their minds, and I benefit from it.

I've also let b0b know personally that I chose my battle poorly, and reiterated my support for how he runs this place.

But apparently, with far more responses to the topic than I received from my question about E9 evolution, there was more to be said, and I have enjoyed hearing from each of you.

What good friends I have made here; and it wouldn't be possible if the forum was your ordinary chat room. Steel is the most interesting instrument; and it's no surprise that steelers are the most interesting musicians.

Play on!
Charlie, the large-mouth bass (pun intended)

If we're talking about the RoFS as defined in the US Constitution, the First Amendment applies to the Government, not the "people." It says that "Congress" (and by extension, local government) can't put someone in jail for speaking his mind.

It does NOT mean you can't... or won't... get punched in the face for provoking someone ("fighting words"), won't be asked or ordered to leave a place of business ("we reserve the right to refuse service"), or be banned from a private Internet Forum because the moderator/owner feels that your speech is detrimental to his Forum.

As regards the Forum, the First Amendment also created the right of "Freedom of the Press." This right extends to the people who own the printing press, and by extension, the news media. Among many other things, it means that the owners of the media (e.g. steel forum) are under NO OBLIGATION to give anyone a platform to say whatever they feel like saying.

We are all here by b0b's good graces. He let's us play in his sandbox, and he can deny that privilege if he feels one of us is damaging his creation. That's the way it is and that's the way it SHOULD BE.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 01 June 2005 at 06:29 AM.]

Donna... you read mine and Herb's posts out loud !!
Land o goshen!

Charle, it is interesting the sea change in your posts across this thread.

Eric, you never lost your muse.
And never your sense of topic drift!

It is interesting that we can say so much here,
and do it clearly and generally VERY directly,
have serious heartfelt disagreements,
and generaly still all get along.......
outside of election years.

And also be ramblingly obtuse, pedantic
and occasionally just plain thick...

Hail b0b moderator for our times,
speaking softly
and wielding a nice big cudgel ...
just in case.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 01 June 2005 at 02:04 PM.]

(Whilst I eschew obfuscation...)

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 01 June 2005 at 01:54 PM.]

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 01 June 2005 at 08:58 PM.]