Now, I've had some raging arguments in the past with Jeff Au Hoy about whether JB plays Hawaiian or not. I've had arguments with Ray Montee about younger musicians using tuners and tab. I've had an argument with John McGann over the use of teaching students how to use tab and why. I've had my share of dabates with others as well, but the ones I've written about stick out in my mind because those were debates where I used one fact after another and never got any real facts back in support of the other sides position.

If the facts a man uses to support his position are weak, then opposing his position is as easy as stating facts that impeach his facts. John McGann seems to do everything but state facts, why? Maybe because John doesn't have to state facts because his creditials make him immune from something exspected from the rest of us, that's what Bill McClosky has stated in no uncertain terms. And what's good for the goose is good for the gander in that Bill isn't one to state facts in support of his own contentions either. Instead, these guys troll and act in a way that seems inmature to me. If tab I've posted is correct, that's a fact that supports what I have to say. If some music theory analysis that I've shared with others isn't correct, why has'nt any facts been put on the table to show this? I don't care what someone has done in the past, your not immune from stating facts in support of your contentions. Only a prima donna would think they don't have to state facts in support of their position because of credentials. I've noted that this absence of facts are followed by this lillle kid b.s. way of posting. Bill M. has decided to remain completely blind to my many posts of tab and music theory analysis and instead has stated that I have no audio posted anywhere so anything I have to say means nothing. Any of you musicians who have been around the block a few times knows there is no way you can learn and apply the many facts that I have posted if I haven't lived it. Where's Bills tab or audio? Where is Bill's down in the trenches musical facts? There aren't any. Bill wants me to leave John out of a dabate that John joins into because of his creditioals even though John is clearly trolling for trouble, B.S.

Jesse,

What you stated were not facts but opinions. Many of us stated opinions in response. No one attacted you personally, but then you called John and myself trolls.

I asked you to leave John out of any personal attacks. John has more than proved his credentials.

You, on the other hand, have stated that you can play Charlie Parker note for note. That you can play Coltranes Giant Steps. That you are a master of Bach on the guitar. And other wonderful feats. I assume that anyone who can play Bird note for note is pretty accomplished and is in pretty high demand. I don't think it is asking to much to ask to hear you play. I'd love to hear you play. Your band must have a video you can post on utube. Other people can help you post an audio file. There are lots of people here to help.

As for me, I make no claim to being a professional musician anymore. I do it for fun. However, a search of this forum will reveal some reviews of one of my concerts with photos. Trust me, if I could play like Bird, I'd have a lot of audio tracks posted.

You claim to be a professional musician. If I can give some marketing advice, most professional musicians I know have samples of their work posted on a web site in order to help them book gigs and promote themselves.

And finally, if you make statements that Coltrane single handedly destroyed jazz but express your love of Kenny G and Karen Carpenter, you really have to expect some good natured ribbing.

[This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 19 October 2006 at 04:37 AM.]

Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

I never saw this TAB food fight, but
I also don't think "facts alone" can answer all disputes.
One man's facts can, with full validity,
be another mans
errors of tecnique or judgement.
Especially in the realm of "The Arts".

Even within the teaching world,
credentials are not the end all and be all
of teaching. Having met and played with John,
I have no doubts he would be a very fine teacher.
Berklee seems to thinks so, and that's not chopped liver...

Lets just cool down a bit...
it shouldn't be coming to this.

I find few true jazz monster players,
who do NOT gratefully acknowlege the work
of Coltrane, Dizzy, Monk and Parker.

Actually I can only think of one,
and though tecnically brilliant
is a serious nutter too.
He turned down Return To Forever,
partly because he though Chick "too derivative"...
True story.

Now I am talking players who suport themselves,
and usually family, playing ONLY JAZZ.

I think this is a viable sounding board
for a precursor artists value.

I don't devalue Karen Carpenter's work,
nor those that like it,
but I don't wish to hear her albums endlessly either.
Not from melodic ineptitude,
but from maudlin, overly sentimental lyrical content.
Best reserved for broken hearted or wishful ladies to hear with their chablis.

Kenny G. has nice tone, but what I HAVE heard of him
doesn't send me running from the room.
But I have heard much more music that I prefer.

He serves a purpose though,
bringing non-jazz people,
a little closer to the flame.

I have posted a tune or two here.
Never boasted to be a great steel player.
But I love the instrument, and have made good progress
in some peoples estimation.

As a bass player I think I can play
with just about anybody in this forum,
what ever they choose to play.

That doesn't happen from credentials,
but from playing most anything I can find,
WITH an open mind.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 October 2006 at 05:11 AM.]

Nobody is blameless when it gets defensive.
I wish there were a way we could have the fervor of our personal opinions without taking the replies personally.

No where in that dumb ass bitch contest between John McGann and myself do I state that I'm am a master of Bach on the guitar, that's a fact. What you just stated is B.S. "John stated that we should not use tab and instead use classical guitar type music notation" after first agreeing with Mike Neer that tab is wrong and bad. I can play Bach on the guitar because I learned a number of pieces by him when I was in collage and tab was easier and faster to learn a regular song with from my own exsperience. But I also ended up leaving the argument with John because he repeatedly insisted on not talking about tab and instead focused on accusing me of intentionally "Trolling". He then has repeatedly reposted the thread to teach others what trolling is! That was so chicken **** in my book that my opinion of him is screwed for ever.

You gave a concert review once, what the #$##%? I don't give a rat's ass if you are only are able to make it to a jam at the local bar every once and a while, what has that got to do with the way you insulted me and other musician's who like and play smooth jazz. Your lack of substance on a topic and your insults are what matter's because were freakin grown ups here remember? This isn't highschool, your so funny dude I forgot to laugh, ya dig?

I make no bones about being on the rough side sometimes and not having much of a sense of humor. My main instrument is guitar and everything else is a second instrument for me. I like steel guitar and I like learning from older musicians who share their wisdom, that's why I interact here.

I'll tell you what Bill, when you start posting audio first, then I'll find a way to do the same o.k? Let's pick a song, how about "Impressions" by Coltrane, I'll even play sax, a secondary instrument for me? Easy modal tune right? If Coltrane is too much for you, how about Bird. "Round Midnight" is nice, but we have to play just like Bird o.k? Maybe a simple Jazz blues on guitar is more up your alley, how about K.C. blues by Bird, but we have to play it like Bird. Or maybe you'd rather we each just compose original jazz blues tunes and play all the instruments ourselfs as a stipulation. You want to hear jazz mandoline, I'm down for that too.

This is when music becomes a cutting contest or a duel. I mean, even if you posted a transcription of something, we could all play it and hear what the heck is going on, but you don't even do that?

quote:

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"John stated that we should not use tab and instead use classical guitar type music notation" after first agreeing with Mike Neer that tab is wrong and bad.

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No, I said a generation of tab-only readers miss out on another way to understand chord-melody relationships. I am not anti-tab. I am pro-learning from whatever angle works for a person.

On underarm guitar, sure, the classical method of circling the string number allows you to (once you know what the notes are) to save paper by not writing tab below the standard notation. That's assuming the person can read notes, though, which is not a good assumption in the guitar world.

Jesse, you hung your own reputation on the forum out to dry with your posts and you know it. I started the "Tab Reader;s Guide to Standard Notation" thread with a gift of a free .pdf book for people interested in using their tab reading skills to develop the ability to read notes. No big deal. I used to sell it, but once I broke even I figured it is something that world could use, and if people wanted to do the work and were motivated, why not let them have it for free. No big deal.

You tore into me in the most unadult, uncivilized manner I have ever seen on a forum where people actually use their names. I have NO problem with differing opinions; I have a big problem with people being rude and low class and attacking other's opinions with personal jibes. The irony here in this thread is awesome!

This forum is made up mostly of people who comport themselves in a gentlemanly manner, sharing both opinions and information (or 'facts' if you will). If you want to call your obnoxious and snide vitriol "rough edges", go ahead...you are speaking for yourself and no one else. A rude åßß?ø¬´is a rude åßß?ø¬ no matter how you spin it.

As for not supplying "facts"- please...read my posts again. I never said "tab is wrong". I never brought up "credentials" other than being a longtime player and teacher. I don't care what YOUR credentials are- you could be Charlie Parker reborn, you are still full of some kind of vendetta that I hope you can eventually resolve nonviolently.

I wish you luck (the good kind) for your future. Maybe politics (LOL!)

With Love,

Professor Chicken˜ß?ˆ†

PS- If you want me involved in a pissing contest, buy one of my CDs!

[This message was edited by John McGann on 19 October 2006 at 08:37 AM.]

No John, if you go back and look at the thread, I said it was great that you posted that stuff, that's a fact any of us can see for ourselfs. You started by saying to me first in that thread that I was being mean to Mike for defending tab and it's benifits for students and we went down hill from there. Your thin skinned IMO. Your whining to someone who's been locked up repeatedly in their life for different things, I see things different than you because of it. I'm glad your woking it in the music world and are a success, I know you got there through hard work. But that doesn't change things with us, your not the only one who work's hard at it. I post free stuff every now and then too and send out things in emails when requested, it's not a big thing. I've been around brutes and I've had to be a brute myself on occassion. Your not a brute and as David pointed out, seem "gentle". Well, I see you as a gentle "passive aggressive" who wants to be somebodies victem to get sympathy for yourself. That kind of stuff fry's me.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 19 October 2006 at 01:03 PM.]

Your "opinion" of someone's ability is just that, an opinion and not a fact because it is predicated on your ability to know what a traditional jazz player should sound like and how good they are. That makes it an opinion.

So you've challanged Dan Tyack as well! We'll we are in good company. While you are at it why don't you challange Reece Anderson, Bobbe Seymour, and Orville Johnson.

I think at this point everyone here has a clear idea of your talents and abilities.

As I said before, you are a riot.

[This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 19 October 2006 at 09:24 AM.]

quote:

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RESPECT EACH OTHER AND THE FORUM MODERATORS. Our online community includes diverse personalities. Each is entitled to an opinion.
This is not an 'adults only' website. Children or others who might be offended by off-color language and subject matter may read the Forum .
Do not verbally attack other Forum members. Even if you strongly disagree with something someone has said, respect their right to speak their mind and avoid insulting remarks. Feel free to disagree with someone's statement or opinion, but refrain from personal attacks. Keep it civilized and remember that respect is a two-way street.
Remember that your posting privileges may be revoked by the moderators at any time for violation of the Forum Rules and Policies. Membership in the Forum is a PRIVILEGE, NOT A RIGHT.

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Just like in the Big House, watch who you pick a fight with! You are the one who started all this, tough guy

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 19 October 2006 at 09:31 AM.]

You guys need to lighten up.

quote:

---

Now, I've had some raging arguments in the past with Jeff Au Hoy about whether JB plays Hawaiian or not. I've had arguments with Ray Montee about younger musicians using tuners and tab. I've had an argument with John McGann over the use of teaching students how to use tab and why. I've had my share of dabates with others as well, but the ones I've written about stick out in my mind because those were debates where I used one fact after another and never got any real facts back in support of the other sides position.

---

Ah, so it's your facts against others unfounded, ignorant opinions. Now I got it! As always, light without heat from Jesse!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

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JUST 'CAUSE I STEEL, DON'T MAKE ME A THIEF www.geocities.com/squire592001/jason.html

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Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator
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