Well Johnny???

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 16 April 2002 at 05:12 PM.]

There are two main ways that the word "tritone" comes into play. I'm going to mention the least-used first, because I think it's fundamental.
Every dominant chord (7th) you have ever heard contains the interval of a tritone. The two notes contained within a dominant chord which are a tritone away from each other are the 3rd tone and the 7th tone. (Example- C7 - the 3rd (E) and the 7th (Bb) are the distance of a tritone away from one another.
Before I go any further, I want to point out that alot of the following thoughts will be expressed with "rootless" voicings in mind. To some ways of thinking, if you are playing with a group, and the chord is "C", and bass player is playing that for you, then to tie up a finger on duplicating that C note is a waste. This way of thinking is not common in Country music, but it is in jazz, pop, and classical. Some of the chords I am likely to write out in this thread will not contain the root. Now, back to the 3rd and the 7th.....
In fact, these two tones are soooo important to the integrity of the dominant chord that by playing those two notes alone, you convey the feeling of a dominant chord. Sure, you could use the root, and the fifth, but from a minimalist's point of view, it's unnecessary.
So, the word "tritone" comes up when talking about dominant chords. If you are arranging a tune containing a G7, and you have a bass player, you may say "I'm going to let the bass player play the root, and I'll cover the tritone" The tritone in this situation is F (the 7th) and B (the third).
Sometimes jazz guys use extended, more complicated voicings of dominant chords, but they are almost always built on the foundation of the Tritone.
Ok, so we have established that by playing the notes F and B all by themselves, we may express a G7 chord. (although it's sure nice to have the bass player playing that root)
Now comes the intriguing mystery of it all: (Are you reading, Paul ?) Look at those notes, F and B, which are a tritone apart. They are actally the tritone of two different chords... not only G7, but also Db7.
What is the 7th of Db7 ? B. What is the third ? F.
So, the notes B and F alone could be used to express two different chords, G7 and Db7.
And how far apart are G and Db ? Son of a gun... they are 3 whole tones apart... a tritone.

Now we have to talk about tritone substitution, a slightly different concept. This is what we found played by the clever Mr. Johnson in his "I'm gonna miss her" solo.
Basically, Tritone Substitution describes the practice of replacing the regular chord with the chord a Tritone away. It's found extensively in jazz, and apparently is creeping into country music too. It gives the music a decidely "outside" feel.

Think you've never heard a tritone substitution before ? Well, let's see now... here's the chords for a fairly standard turnaround in the key of D:

|D |B7 |E7 |A7 |

Ok, let's take those last three chords, and use tritone substitution on them all...

|D |F |Bb |Eb |

Look familiar ? Anyone have a record called "Nightlife" ? Yup, that's right.
The Nightlife intro was actually a concept borrowed from the Charlie Parker era. If you listen to the intro of "Parker's Mood" or "Ladybird", you'll hear our beloved Nightlife intro in it's original form. The chords in the turnaround have been tweaked in order to leave the same melody note on top, so they come out looking like this:
|D |F7 |BbMaj7 |Eb7#11 |

Some would argue that the last chord is an A chord. Well, that's fine. It's really up to the bass player. Such is the way with rootless voicings. If the bass player plays an Eb note as the root, that's what it is. Be kind to bass players, they are very powerful people

In Mr. Johnson's example, he chose to break out of the Db chord he was playing through, just for a moment, and express the tritone chord, G, for a passing lick. Whether the bass player followed him note for note is irrelevant. It still gives this "stepping outside" flavour for just a moment.

So we have two examples of the use of the word "Tritone". The first I mentioned, the "tritone" found within every dominant chord, is not verbalized on the bandstand that often. It's fundamental, although it doesn't come up in bandstand conversaton too much.
The second application of the concept, called "Tritone Substitution", does come up on the bandstand... and you should know what it means. You should also be able to recognize it when you hear it. When I went to figure out that solo, I didn't have a clue where on the fretboard I was going to find it, but I knew what I was looking for by the sound of it.

So, to close, I'd like to write out an example on C6 of the opening phrase of a fairly popular tune, "All the things you are", using Tritone Substitution. Some of us heard Paul Franklin play it in St. Louis last year.
First, the tune in it's original form:
I realize the majority use two finger picks, but I have marked in some roots with a *.
Feel free to reach over and strike them before, after, or during the chord, to make it easier to hear the movement;

All the Things you Are

Fm7....Bbm7....Eb7............Ab

1-----|-------|---------------|--------
2-----|-------|---------------|-----8--
3--8--|-13----|---------------|--------
4--8--|-13----|-10--10-10--10-|-8(7----
5-----|----13-|---------------|-8------
6--8--|-13----|-10(6---10(6---|--------
7-----|-------|-10-----10-----|-8------
8-----|-------|---------------|--------
9-----|-------|-10*-----------|--------
10----|-------|---------------|--------

Now, using Tritone Substitution:
(r means raise a half tone)

Fm7....Bbm7....Eb7.....A7......Ab

1-----|-------|---------------|--------
2-----|-------|---------------|-----8--
3--8--|-13----|---------------|--------
4--8--|-13----|-10--10-9r--9r-|-8(7----
5-----|----13-|--------9------|-8------
6--8--|-13----|-10(6---9------|--------
7-----|-------|-10------------|-8------
8-----|-------|---------------|--------
9-----|-------|-10*-----------|--------
10----|-------|--------9*-----|-8*-----

If you don't have a half tone raise in string 4, you can always play the A7
here:
1-------
2-------
3--7----
4--7----
5--7(5--
6-------
7-------
8-------
9-------
10-7(5*-

So, do you like it ? Maybe you don't. It's a matter of taste.
Bass players love Tritone Substitution, because it often leads to chromatic bass lines, and therefore, less movement. Particularly in the case of II-V-I progressions... where they turn into
II-bII-I progressions.

Well, so much for a few random thoughts, folks. I've tried to be clear and concise as possible, but if you guys have any comments, let 'em rip.

-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 17 April 2002 at 01:33 PM.]

[This message was edited by George Duncan Sypert on 17 April 2002 at 08:12 PM.]

Again, Thank you !!

Great stuff John

------------------
JIM
"73" MSA S10, "74" LTD 400, Profex II "55" Esquire, "63 Epiphone, "63" Precision,
"71" Jazz (The Bass)
REAL OLD STUFF

I was looking for some comments from you. Do you disagree with it? That's ok. You can say so, and then we can get a discussion going. I truly do the things I posted, and they do sound good to my ears (at least part of the time. Like I pointed it, no matter what my theoretical basis, the hardest thing is to sound melodic and fluid). Anyway, I would appreciate it if you would offer some comments. You're the big theory honcho here. Whether or not you agree, I'd like to hear what you have to say. Also, if anyone has some questions about anything I posted, I would be glad to answer them. If no one says anything, then I'll wonder what the point is of doing this. Tri-tones, as well as other subjects, are real interesting and valuable, and IMO there's a lot more going on here than in the other parts of the Forum (what do you have on your knee levers? I just got an XXXX guitar, and it's better than anything else. How do you tune your XXXX string. I just heard XXXX play and he's the greatest thing since milk and cookies. etc. etc. etc.) So please say something. Thanks.

Turnaround in C:

Bb7#11 A9 Ab7#11 G9
1----------------------
2----------------------
3----------------------
4--8L~~~7~~~~6L~~~5----
5--8(5~~7(5~~6(5~~5(5--
6--8~~~~7~~~~6~~~~5----
7--8~~~~7~~~~6~~~~5----
8----------------------
9----------------------
10---------------------

For those keeping watch, the tritones found within all these dominant chords are on strings 5 (3rd) and 7 (7th). Following Jeff's example, this turnaround would be the result of starting with a III-VI-II-V turnaround, and applying Tritone Substitution to the III and II chords.

By the way, I play an XXXX guitar, but I'm still not sure how to tune the XXXX string
-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 22 April 2002 at 09:46 AM.]

Bb7.....E7#9....EbM7

1--------------|-----
2--5(6~~~~2(6--|-----
3--5~~~~~~2----|-3L--
4--------------|-3---
5--5(5~~~~2(5--|-3---
6--------------|-3---
7--------------|-3---
8--------------|-----
9--------------|-----
10--------2(5--|-3---

[This message was edited by John Steele on 22 April 2002 at 09:47 AM.]

When I Fall In Love - bars 4-8 Eb

..Eb............Db9..C.......F-7...Bb7

1------10-----|-------------|----|------|
2-------------|-------------|----|------|
3---3------10-|-------------|----|------|
4------10-----|-11---10-----|-8~~|~~8---|
5-3-----------|-11(5-10(5---|-8~~|~~8(5-|
6-3-----------|-------------|----|------|
7------10-----|-11---10-----|-8~~|~~8---|
8-3-----------|-------------|-8*-|------|
9-------------|-------------|----|------|
10------------|-11(5*-10(5*-|----|--8(5*|

Now, with tritone substitution on the II chord, a la Ray Brown:

..Eb............Db9..C......B7#11..Bb7

1------10-----|-------------|----|------|
2-------------|-------------|----|------|
3---3------10-|-------------|-6L~|~~5---|
4------10-----|-11---10-----|-6~~|~~5---|
5-3-----------|-11(5-10(5---|----|------|
6-3-----------|-------------|-6(6|~~5(6-|
7------10-----|-11---10-----|----|------|
8-3-----------|-------------|----|------|
9-------------|-------------|-6*-|--5*--|
10------------|-11(5*-10(5*-|----|------|

* marks the optional root, as usual.
The last two chords at fret 5 & 6 are also
extremely strummable, if you're so inclined; right from string 9 to 3.
I particularly like this one... its a very handy one to know, as alot of melodies land on that second note of the scale on a turnaround.

Liability Disclaimer: The author accepts absolutely no responsibility if someone uses this in bar 7 of Swingin' Doors, and they get beat up over it.

-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 22 April 2002 at 02:58 PM.]

1___Fm7___B7#11____Bbm7___E7#11___Eb7__________A7#11_______AbM7___________________
2_________________________________________________________________________________
3____8____6(7______13_____11(7____________________________________8_______________
4_________6(7_____________11(7_____10____10_____9R____9R____8(7_________8(7_______
5____8_____________13______________10___________9(5_________8_____________________
6_________6(6_____________11(6_____10(6_________9___________8_____________________
7__________________________________10___________9___________8_____________________
8____8_____________13_____________________________________________________________
9_________6_______________11______________________________________________________
10__you____________are____the______prom__ised___kiss__of____spring time__that_____

1___DbM7______________G7_____________CM7__________________________________________
2_________________________________________________________________________________
3__________________________7______________________________________________________
4____8___8___8___8____7R_______7R____7____________________________________________
5_________________________________________________________________________________
6____8________________7______________7____________________________________________
7_________________________________________________________________________________
8_________________________________________________________________________________
9____8_______________________________7____________________________________________
10__makes_the_lonely_winter____seem__long_________________________________________

quote:

---

And by the way, Rick Schmidt I’m sure has something to say about all this. He’s into something called the “Lydian concept” and told me the name of the book, but I forget it.

---

He sometimes talks about the dissonance of chords in relation to their distance from the key center in the cycle of fourths, which he has his own name for.

Also very helpful to me, was his discussion of how improvisational thinking evolved, (or at least changed,) from Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins, through Charlie Parker and John Coltrane, to Ornette Coleman. This has to do with how these players matched scales with chords. As I understand it, he has ultimately created a system that allows you to theoretically approach "playing anything over anything." I guess Coleman has his own way of thinking, called "harmolidics," but I can't really say anything about that.

For me those are a few of the "salient points" of Russell's book, but I'd have to dig out the notes I made from it to see if he said anything about "tritone substitution" in particular. I really don't consider myself as having taken his thought very far. Maybe Mick Goodrick describes the best use I've made of it, in calling it "an overview that suggests other overviews."

John, that example from "Nightlife," which derives a Major 7th chord using the tritone substitution, is interesting. I have only thought of Dom. 7th chords with the tritone method up until this point.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 24 April 2002 at 04:15 PM.]

quote:

---

he places modal systems next to each other, centering on the lydian mode as the main parent scale.

---

As far as his system of composing and chord substitution, which goes along with his thought on scales to play over a given chord, it's based on what he calls the "Cycle of Close and Distant Relationships." (Most of us call that the cycle of fifths, or fourths.) Each place on the cycle has it's own "Lydian Chromatic Scale," which is the same as the chromatic scale.

For each place on the cycle, there are six parent scales that are harmonized, like we do with the major. Graded according to dissonance, they are: lydian, lydian augmented (3rd mode of mel. minor),lydian dim.(mel. minor #4), aux. dim.(W-1/2 dim.), auxilliary aug.(whole-tone), and the aux. dim. blues scale(1/2-W dim.) I gave you the names he uses first.

In a nutshell, placing these scales in parallel fashion allows one to jump from the lydian scale, when playing over a particular chord within its harmonized structure, out into the systems of greater dissonance.

If yet greater dissonance is desired, or if one wants to substitute outside of the original Lydian Chromatic Scale, one would proceed around the Cycle of Close and Distant Relationships, deriving desired chords or scales from other Lydian Chromatic Scales. (He includes all twelve notes in each L.C.S., but provides the six scales as families of notes to choose from, within the chromatic framework.)

One possible way that this would apply to our sample progression, would be to play around the C lydian system for the IM chord, and perhaps venture out into the parallel scales that I described, using the first note of each as the root. Obviously, playing over the I major chord wouldn't allow for the more dissonant scales to be used as much as with other chords. One could also think in terms of the I major chord as being based on the 5th degree of the lydian scale, (giving the major scale,) and play the whole system of scales up a fourth. (whew!)

For the 7th chords in the sample progression, the easiest thing would be to play those of the above scales which have a M2nd degree, starting a whole step below the 7th chord's root. (You could look at this as based on mixolydian, progressing outward in dissonance.)

To utilize the tritone substitution, within the Cycle of Close and Distant Relationships, go to the b5 Lydian Chromatic Scale, which is farthest away on the cycle. Then, access the same scales in that key, just like for the original 7th chord.

Russell would refer to this basic approach of matching scales with chords as "vertical," since it is based on each individual chord. "ingoing" melodies stay within the system of one Lydian Chromatic Scale, based around one parent scale at a time, while "outgoing" melodies visit the systems derived from points around the "Cycle," or base ideas around intervals of the chromatic scale.

He also deals with "horizonatal" approaches, using the major scale and the "blues" scale (minor pentatonic plus a major 3rd and b5.) "Horizontal" playing, as you may know, is when a single scale is played over a succession of chords, rather than matching each chord individually with a different scale. (Didn't Chas Smith talk about "horizonatal as being focused on where things were going to end up?)

As an aside, Russell briefly mentions a nine-tone scale along with the lydian-derived scales I mentioned above, which is: 1,2,b3,3,#4,5,#5,6,7. (This includes all of the notes in the three lydian-derived scales.)

For the most part though, he talks about each of the twelve possible Lydian Chromatic Scales as containing eight scales. These would be the six that I mentioned in the vertical discussion, along with the major and blues.

Keep in mind that this is a system which rationalizes "playing anything over anything," so I'm only giving you a general departure point. That catch-all theoretical device, "Chromatic enhancement," is also an ever present possibility.

If I can tell you anything more, I'll be back in a few days, to see what other stuff you guys have come up with.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 29 April 2002 at 02:24 PM.]

The nine-tone scale is meant to be all of the notes in the three lydian-derived scales, combined. Using that scale, one could simplify the thought process from time to time by just selecting from the notes in the nine-tone scale, rather than jumping back and forth between the three lydian-derived scales.

About the process of moving back and forth between the six parent scales in vertical playing, to really know all of the scale options to play over the different chord types, it's necessary to haromonize (create chords on the different scale degrees by stacking thirds)the six vertical parent scales, and make a comprehensive list of all the ways the six parent scales can be used to play over the different chord types. It isn't always enough to just look at the original parallel grouping of the six scales, and jump back and forth between those scales which have a shared root note, like in the examples I gave above for major 7th and dom. 7th chords. There are other notes in the scales which can be roots for each particular chord type, and making a list for each type of chord, and all the ways that each scale can be used to play over it, gives a more full range of options.

You may also find that to group the six vertical scales so that different notes come into contact with each other is better in some instances. For example, I usually would put the 3rd mode of the melodic minor in a side-by-side relationship with the third mode of melodic minor #4. Russell groups these two scales so that the third mode of the mel. min. is side-by- side with the melodic minor #4 itself. I can see valuable points of convergence in both pairs.

This general way of looking at things, grouping these six scales side-by-side, emphasizing their points of contact, is also a very valuable way of memorizing and and becoming familiar with what the whole family of scales is capable of. My basic "grouping" differs a little bit from Russell's, in a way that suits my own needs. I also select names for the scales that emphasize their relationship to each other, and aids association and memory.

Lastly, you'll notice that Russell doesn't deal with the harmonic minor scale. I believe that is in keeping with the low priority that many jazz artists have put on that scale, especially in relation to the melodic minor.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 29 April 2002 at 05:29 PM.]

Thanks everyone.
OK to close this now.

Start another if you'd like!

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 29 April 2002 at 07:41 PM.]