posted 06 January 2001 07:03 AM         

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 06 January 2001 at 07:08 AM.]

posted 06 January 2001 08:36 AM         

I guess "Distortion makes Rock" is kinda like "Steel makes Country"!

posted 06 January 2001 08:39 AM         

Key G
D knee lever in lowers Es to Eb
String/Fret
    -1----2-----3-------4
1   --------------------- 
2   --------------------
3   --------------------
4   ------------------- 8  
5   -5-----6-----7------
6   -2-----3-----4-------
7   -1-------------------
8   ---------------------

Try walking the 6th string from the 2nd to the 3rd fret and then hitting the 5th/4th strings at the 3rd fret or just the 4th string at the 3rd fret

Unlike the BC pedal combos which hit the exact same notes the above requires bar movement much like the old swing players.

As for over drive I use my mesa boogie distortion and amp reverb to play all of those old Slide guitar licks. Here is where a tube amp excels, puts those lame Peavys to shame

[This message was edited by Robert Todd on 06 January 2001 at 08:44 AM.]

posted 06 January 2001 09:53 AM         

But I do have some observations:

I have yet to see a rush by rock and rollers to buy, play or use the steel in any rock bands I see on TV or in billboards or magazines.

My comment is this: IF, the steel sounds good in Rock and Roll music, how come you don't see it?

And I am not talking about an occasional foray here or there. I am talking about in mass such as the regular guitar in EVERY single Rock and Roll band I have EVER seen.

I am NOT being facetious nor trying to be argumentative. I would just like to know why.

God bless you all,

carl

posted 06 January 2001 10:40 AM         

1) I just bought a '52 Tele Reissue (yesterday!!!), and I LOVE IT. I'm not much of a guitar player, but it's incredibly fun to fool around with, and I can see TONS of new doorways opening that compliment the PSG.

2) I have a Paul Franklin teaching tape on Rock 'n Roll PSG, and he makes two very good points that I have not seen addressed here:

- don't dwell on major scales to play over rock/blues sounds. Stick more with the pentatonic/minor pentatonic and blues scales.

- no amount of fuzz tone or distortion will give you that rock/blues sound if you're not playing the pentatonic/blues stuff. Having said that, my Tubeworks preamp kicks some serious butt for overdriven sounds on the steel!

I am certainly no expert at this stuff, but in fooling with the lessons on this tape, he makes a very good point!

But HOT DAMN, that Tele sure is FUN!

BTW, if there are any Tele afficianados out there, please e-mail me. I've got a qouple of questions regarding tone switching/pickups, etc.

Thanks.
SF

quote:

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"...buttered toast"???

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posted 06 January 2001 10:48 AM         

quote:

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Can you imagine Jimi Hendrix at the Opry playing Wabash Cannon Ball with Roy Acuff or Keith Richards playing with Porter Wagner.

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posted 06 January 2001 11:06 AM         

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My comment is this: IF, the steel sounds good in Rock and Roll music, how come you don't see it?

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There are not enough steel players that are into other types of music.

You don't just decide that you want to be a rock musician and suddenly get big piles of money and fame. You need to slug it out in thousands of crappy bars and drive around in a van, sleep on floors for just about enough money to get gas to get to the next crappy gig. Its the same as getting started as a country musician.

Plenty of bands,of all sorts, would be more than happy to add steel if there where more around that had open minds.
I know this from direct experience.

posted 06 January 2001 12:06 PM         

If the Strat works and the steel doesn't, use the Strat. If the steel works and the Strat doesn't, use the steel. If the distortion works, use it. If it doesn't, don't. (Oh my God, what if it all works? Or worse, what if NOTHING one works? I know, where's that banjo? Yeah that's it!!!!!!!!!! )

posted 06 January 2001 12:14 PM         

And Feldman, it's only 'cause you're a complete gearhead

posted 06 January 2001 12:38 PM         

quote:

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if I was gonna play a classic rock song that had no steel on the original record - instead of trying to sound like a Rickenbacker 12 string,I would completely rearrange it

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posted 06 January 2001 12:46 PM         

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Michael Johnstone, if you and Feldman quit posting here, I probably wouldn't bother to come back. Thank you. I agree with you, only because you're absolutely right.

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Speaking of which, I kind of got a kick out of this one from MJ:

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... never mind the funkless, squat-to-pee,play-bass-with-a-flatpick types.

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posted 06 January 2001 01:23 PM         

And learning pentatonic scales is an even worse way to go. The music, like every other kind, is about feel. If you want to play the stuff correctly, I suggest finding as many Fabulous Thunderbirds CDs as you can, and learning from Jimmie Vaughan. His playing sounds simple, but it incorporates all of the great techniques developed for electric guitar on the R & R bandstand.

posted 06 January 2001 01:38 PM         

quote:

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pick strings 3,4,5 pedals up, then push A&B down - country!

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posted 06 January 2001 02:20 PM         

The pedal steel adds new tonal colors to the music of recording artists like Joni Mitchell, David Byrne, Bob Dylan, Luke Vibert and Bill Frisell, to name a few. There's nary a hint of country in their music.

Some people pick up a guitar and can't help but play country. Others gravitate towards blues, rock, folk or classical. It's the musician, not the instrument, that determines what kind of music will be played.

posted 06 January 2001 04:39 PM         

B.J. Cole has an album out with an electronica guy named Luke Vibert called "Stop the Music". People who have never listened to a steel guitar in their life, have brought this album to my attention. It's not rock, but it is pop/electronica that the kids buy in droves.
B.J. plays pretty much straight universal or C6 sounding steel without distortion. He is really reaching a new audience.

The big roots music discovery of the past few years has been sacred steel. It's truly amazing that there was a very large community of steelers up and down the east coast, who were hidden away in the church, and completely unknown to C&W steelers. These guys rock, and for the most part don't use distortion devices (for more info see Dan Tyaak threads).

As a guy who has recorded both Hendrix (3rd Stone) and the Byrds (8 Miles High) I find this discussion interesting, and pretty much agree with elements of all that's been said.
I say let a guitar be a guitar, and a steel be a steel...however we can certainly play some of each other's music, if done tastefully with a tune that allows it. I never try to disguise the sound of the steel, but rather I feel that the steel sound works well in a rock/pop/soul context. Obviously, the steel is primarily a melodic instrument and can't cover the rhythm spectrum like a guitar, but a guitar can't slide through changes like we can. Joe

posted 06 January 2001 05:17 PM         

The sound of a PSG works great in most rock, trying to make it sound like something it's not usually sounds dorky. When McQuinn sat in with us, we played lots of Byrds classics, he played my Tele and I played PSG... it sounded fine.

posted 07 January 2001 02:26 PM         

I have had a lot of success for the last few years working on using the advantages of the pedal steel in this sort of music. As I have said before, the pedal steel is the ultimate instrument for blues or rock. All the elements that make rock and roll guitar playing so difficult (bending strings, obtaining smooth vibrato and sustain, creating a 'singing' lead line) are right there on the steel. You can play parts that are uniquely 'pedal steel' but are also clearly 'rock and roll' or 'blues' lines. This is the kind of playing that will make other players turn around and say 'what *is* that', or get the producers to call you. Before, the response I got was something like 'wow, you make that pedal steel sound like an average guitar player'.

An example: I recently played on almost every cut of a completely non-country indie CD project. One of the tunes was a Byrds-like song, which a guitar player would have probably brought out the old Rickenbacker 12 string to play on. I played a part, using my Franklin using a 'vox-like' sound on my THD tube head, which had that chimy, classic Byrds sound. It didn't sound like a Rick 12 string, but it fit the song perfectly, and the producer and artist loved it (one more guitar part bites the dust ).

To get to specifics of how to get a good sound for rock and roll or blues, here's what I do personally:

As b0b mentions, ditch the reverb, except when specifically appropriate to a part (e.g. big hair rock ballad solos).

Use a good sounding tube amp, at a gain level appropriate to a song. In other words, it doesn't need to be obviously distorting, but (IMHO) an ultra clean transistor sound is seldom the most appropriate sound (this is one of the things that screams 'country').

Consider using non-JBL like speakers (JBLs or Black Widows). Speakers like Celestions or EVs often sound better when used with an overdriven amp (the word that comes to my mind is smoother).

I personally never use a fuzz or other distortion device, because many of them make your instrument sound 'generic', but many times I will use an 'overdrive' kind of device like a tube screamer to drive the front end of a tube amp. My favorite of these is the Fulltone Full Drive pedal, which doesn't change the sound of your guitar at all, but simply adds some testosterone to the gain.

posted 07 January 2001 06:51 PM         

And YES...w/o a doubt...you NEED to use some kind of overdrive, or distortion...when you're playing "Hard" rock. If not...you're missing the boat. But...you don't need/want overdrive, on ALL rock songs...but, if you're playing a song like "Purple Haze," etc. - you need it!!

------------------
David (DJ) Rupert

1995 Mullen D-10
Nashville 400 Amp
Goodrich Volume Pedal (L120)
Goodrich S/S Matchbox (7A)
Boss - Dual Overdrive (SD-2)
Boss - Digital Delay (DD-5)
Boss - Super Phaser (PH-2)

"Music. Without it, life itself...would be impossible."

www.johnbarnold.com/rupert/index.htm

posted 07 January 2001 07:03 PM         

Our own Bob Taillefer appeared at the Ottawa International Jazz Festival a few years ago.
Yay Bob! Go Canucks.....
-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 07 January 2001 at 07:05 PM.]

posted 08 January 2001 09:44 AM         

Of course, most of the Sacred Steel players would be comfortable playing in a blues setting, in that the form of gospel music they play is closely related to blues.

posted 08 January 2001 11:08 AM         

That's the key, folks. If it sounds good, it is good. Be a musician first -- BEFORE being a steel player. It's not an either/or situation either. There's plenty of room for steel players to explore genres of music other than the traditional country and western swing.