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Respect for the C6 (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Respect for the C6 (Page 2)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Respect for the C6 |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 06 August 2000 01:47 PM
I wish some players would defend the C6 tuning as the standard of modern pop playing. It's not getting very much respect on the Forum lately, and I think that ought to be reversed. We've been hearing a lot about how you can play great stuff in all musical genres on the E9, which is true. So, whoever posts, please spell out all the reasons why there is no substitute for the C6 tuning as the PSG standard in MODERN music, whether pop, jazz, show music, blues, rock, etc. I'll start the ball rolling. I have a modern guitar with 5 knee levers doing C6 pulls and split-tuning capability. For each note of the scale, I have identified over 300 fret/chord/pedal positions covering every imaginable chord type. For a C9+5 chord alone, I have noted 15 position/pedal combinations within the first 12 frets. This doesn't count different inversions on the same fret, due to fingering grips. To paraphrase Curly Chalker, the chords are laying all over the place. Ok, I'm done. Who's next? |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 06 August 2000 02:56 PM
The E9th has lots of positions for big majors and minors, i.e. 1 3 5 1 3 5 1. The C6th has lots of positions for extended chords, but not so many for playing basic chords that span 2 octaves. The 12 string E9/B6 gives you both. Different kinds of music have different kinds of chords. Pick the tuning that works best for the music you're playing. The C6th is great for tunes with complex chords. Jeff, I think we need to define "modern". I don't hear a lot of extended chords in today's music. Maybe you could give some examples of recent artists whose music lends itself to C6th. |
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Herb Steiner Member Posts: 6119 |
posted 06 August 2000 03:15 PM
That must be why Rodney Dangerfield plays the C6... it just don't get no respect!!  (insert drum riff here) People tell me my C6th playing is like magic... when I get on that neck, the audience disappears!! (insert drum riff here, straighten knot on tie) But seriously folks, C6th was my Number One reason for playing steel guitar,... so how come my playing always comes out sounding like Number Two?! (insert drum riff here, ad nervous tic to face) We all know that C6th did for commercial steel playing what "Jaws" did for swimming, of course... (insert drum riff here) Hey, one of my students asked me if I was teaching a C6th class. I told him I wasn't aware C6th players had any class!! (insert drum riff here) No seriously, I was searching the forum for some threads on C6th, until I realized it was a pretty thread-bare tuning!! (insert drum riff here) A bandleader asked if I played C6th. I said "yeah," and he said "well then, we're looking for a banjo player!" (insert drum riff here) I told the guy I thought the C6th player was the "King of Steel Guitarists." He said "Close... but more like the Royal Pain in the A$$!" (drum riff) Heyt, after I wrote a C6th book, I was told my writing did for steel guitar what painting-by-the-numbers did for art! (drum riff) Well folks, the old clock on the wall says it's time to make like a tree and "leave." Or should I just make like a banana and "split?" Hey, come on back, I'll be here all week with a different show every night! Don't forget to tip your waitress and bartender, they're working hard for you. And looking at that waitress, hey, I can understand why the bartender is working hard!!! (exit stage left, spilling drink) [This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 06 August 2000 at 03:21 PM.] |
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chris ivey Member Posts: 1105 |
posted 06 August 2000 04:18 PM
nice performance herb! (small but embarrassing smattering of applause) my thoughts are that, though the C6 tuning seems naturally to be an all around type of tuning, the temptation to jazz it up is so obvious on it that no one has presented a smooth simple melodic rendition of commercial acceptance. not that it's not capable....just that everyone's a hot dog! |
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Harry Hess Member Posts: 1131 |
posted 06 August 2000 04:34 PM
C6 can work equally well on any tune. Some months back, I was encouraging anybody trying to learn C6 to pick up the "Learn 13 Songs-C6" (course #C2), published by Emmons. I picked it up from Tom Bradshaw. It's got plenty of three chord country tunes played on C6 by Doug Jernigan (using all the pedals). You can play lot's of nice stuff on C6 without being a monster jazz player. And without utilizing the non-pedal aspec of the tuning, which doesn't do much for me. I went through the non-pedal phase some years ago and learned plenty of tunes "non-pedal". I just no longer have an interest in that sound. C6 just scares a lot of guys 'cause it's not laid out as simply as the E9. Let's face it, if one guy invented the E9 tuning, he'd have to be regarded as an "Einstein". It's an increditable tuning. It's laid out so nice, it almost plays itself. But with some effort, you can get the C6 tuning down and it's well worth it. You can do it all, including a lot of crying/weeping E9 kind of stuff. And the syncopated, fast E9 type of licks are there to. It'll never replace the E9, but it has it's place. I know someday the universal may take over, but I also question if that will indeed ever happen. For my money, you just can't beat the D-10. Regards, |
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Jerry Hayes Member Posts: 3306 |
posted 06 August 2000 04:51 PM
Hey Jeff, I have to take exception with the term "Modern Music". No matter what you play I think the E9th sounds better, but then I'm just a hillbilly. That fat bassy sound just turns me off for sure. It's a personal preference but If I hear C6th I'd rather hear a brighter sound like Herby Wallace's or something like that. I like something that'll cut through the mix and not get lost in it! I started a thread a year or so ago called "C6th Sucks?" which I got a lot of flak for and maybe deservedly so! It's not the tuning I dislike, it's what most players do with it. I'd love to see it used in a "Modern" jazz way which was commercially acceptable but I don't think it's going to happen. I think they should stay away from the chords too much and go with the single notes like the horns do and let the rhythm section do the chord work. ------------------ |
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Rick Schmidt Member Posts: 1596 |
posted 06 August 2000 06:22 PM
Does anybody out there raise both E's to F with one lever on their C6 neck? I've found that there are alot of E9th "isms" on there just by doing that.....especially in conjuntion with the A to Bb change ( among others ).... The one thing I found that the C neck didnt have traditionally that it needed for both E9th sounds AND the more modern modal/"Miles Davis" kind of jazz (as opposed to swing & Be Bop) was the ability to make "compound chords" (maj & minor triads superimposed over different bass notes)....and sus 4 & 11's. |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 06 August 2000 07:48 PM
Chris, I think you got something there. "too much hot dog on C6 and not enough Commercial . I won't defend C6. I don't think it is bright enough. I like E6, much brighter and sounds more like E9 in tone and the bar positions are the same, so a player does not have to re-learn his positions when he switches necks..Notes and chords are a lot alike but oh what a difference...My 2 cents? I think the Single 12 string with both tunings setup on it is the Steel of the future.! |
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ed packard Member Posts: 1355 |
posted 06 August 2000 08:15 PM
Want an extensive work on C6 and its evolution from 6 strings thru the B6 used on 12 and 14 string Universals? !0 string C6 is included, ..lots of charts and jargon to work thru. Just e-mail me and ask for it. no $ involved. |
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Jody Sanders Member Posts: 2889 |
posted 06 August 2000 08:30 PM
When I started learning to play steel, the 6th tunings were what was "happening" except for Little Roy Wiggins on an E tuning. As the steel guitar evolved to pedals, the E9th became the predominate tuning for country music. There is room for both tunings. The C6th still works very well on swing and pop tunes such as "Misty". We should all support the steel guitar whether it be E9th, C6th, or whatever tuning is being used. Herb, you are so bad. Jody. |
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Jeff Evans Member Posts: 554 |
posted 06 August 2000 09:02 PM
How about that C6th classic, "Release Me?" I've heard Gary Carpenter solo on this song (and others) on both necks. And the C6 ride wasn't frenetic 32nd notes (which he's also capable of) either--it was a pretty, harmonized melody. When a player has that level of fluency, the tuning doesn't have to strictly dictate the style. (Wish I had it; then I could use that neck as more than a rusty arm rest.) |
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MARK GILES Member Posts: 129 |
posted 06 August 2000 09:34 PM
Herb, Great routine. You're killing me. I.m tugging at my collar now. I also like the brighter sounds and try to EQ so as to have that on the C6 neck. I usually learn to play a song on E9 then switch to C6 and play it there. Makes you learn both necks. |
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Jim Palenscar Member Posts: 1566 |
posted 06 August 2000 09:56 PM
Al Marcus-"I think the Single 12 string with both tunings setup on it is the Steel of the future!" Funny thing- that's what I heard when I bought my 1st MSA 12 string in 1975.. My question is- when does the future start so's I can finally join in? :~)) |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 06 August 2000 10:12 PM
Jeff, it depends on what you mean by modern. If D'Angelo were to call me to play on his next CD (please!!!), chances are I could play something more appropriate on the E9th. But as I have said in different threads, that's more a limitation of my C6th playing than anything else. When I play something on that neck, I usually play a bunch of swing like, or Emmons or Paul Franklin type stuff. Not that I am not the biggest Emmons or Franklin fan, either of them could play some killer stuff on a D'Angelo record (on either neck). But what I play on E9th somehow comes out simpler and more friendly to the rest of the track. I am working on my C6th playing, but a lot of what I tend to play comes out a little too, well, complicated.
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 06 August 2000 10:46 PM
Well, it's not so much for me to define modern music. I was looking for posters to tell me that they played C6 to whatever they considered modern music, but most importantly, that they consider the C6 to be the standard in terms of the variety of pop styles that can be accomodated. This doesn't seem to be happening though. .. Sigh. What I normally like to do on the C6 is arrange pop standards (Cabaret, Christmas tunes, etc.) The pop flavor that I attach to these arrangements is something akin to what I perceive as the sound you hear on Broadway shows (although most of the Broadway tunes I know date back a couple of decades), and in orchestras like the ones you hear on the Tonight Show, Conan, etc. I hear brassy sounds, dense chord voicings, etc., stuff that I naturally feel is the domain of C6. I have an instinct that this would be a great fit in those popular arenas, and, as I've said in other threads, I feel it hurts the PSG that there is no focus in these areas, where the visibility could be tremendous. But there seems to be very little interest in expanding the PSG there. Anyway, I'm tabbing an arrangement for "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" that I'll put on the Forum in the next couple of days. I'll try to put a few interesting twists in it. Hopefully, a few of you folks will check it out and get a kick out of it. .. Jeff |
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Dennis Boyd Member Posts: 156 |
posted 06 August 2000 10:54 PM
Rick Schmidt, You're right about adding the E to F, A to Bb, and C to D changes on the C6th tuning gives you many of the E9th type changes. Maurice Anderson's Bb6th Universal tuning introduced those pulls for that reason I think. I'm in the process of putting those changes on my old MSA double-neck. You need extra pedals and knee levers to add them, but this guitar was already loaded when I bought it. 9 pedals + 5 knee levers for E9th and 4 knee levers for C6th. I'm thinking about lowering the tuning to B6th because I already play a E9/6 Universal. Since I haven't played the double-neck (10/11) for a long time I figured that it would be easier to make the transition that way. Dennis |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 07 August 2000 06:24 AM
Herb, you must have cut your musical teeth on borscht. |
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chris ivey Member Posts: 1105 |
posted 07 August 2000 09:17 AM
or was it bulsht... |
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Jerry Gleason Member Posts: 539 |
posted 07 August 2000 10:24 AM
For me, C6 was the reason I took up steel guitar. I'm not particularly interested in changes that would make it function more like E9, that's what I have the E9 neck for. I like changes that lend themselves to more modern jazz-type chord extensions, like the 5th string whole tone lower (G-F), and fourth string raise and lower (A-Bb and A-Ab). I play more C6 than E9, but that's mostly 'cause I'm lazy and the C6 tuning just made more sense to me, and was easier to figure out (okay, I'm still figuring it out, but I know I'll never be a great E9 player, so I concentrate on what I can do best.). Here are some mp3 examples of my continuing struggle to learn to play jazz on pedal steel, if you have a fast internet connection, or a lot of time on your hands... |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 07 August 2000 10:55 AM
I was really surprised on Peggy Green's "My Voice" CD, to realize halfway through a pretty country ballad that she was playing the C6th. I really think that both tunings can be applied to any kind of music, in the hands of a skilled player. Jeff, sorry if I diverted the topic. To me, "pop" means artists like Celina Dion and Sting. I don't hear a lot of dense chords in most pop music today. If anything, they seem to have moved to more open voicings, which are playable on just about any tuning. |
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Bob Hempker Member Posts: 742 |
posted 07 August 2000 11:46 AM
Rick, I am pretty sure Bobbe Seymour raises his E's with a knee lever, and lowers his E's with his 6th floor pedal. Most of us raise the 2nd string with the 6th pedal and lower the 6th, then lower the 2nd and raise the 6th with a knee lever. I can see advantages and disadvantages to both. It's all a matter of what you get used to. |
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Dave Horch Member Posts: 628 |
posted 07 August 2000 12:44 PM
Here's a link to another discussion on getting the E9 sound on a C6 tuning http://www.b0b.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009266.html |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 07 August 2000 12:49 PM
Back in the 70's, I had a left knee lever raising the B's to Bb and a right knee lever that raised the 3rd string C to D. These along with floor pedal 6 gave you a lot of the A&B pedal sounds from the E-9th. I used to play Bud's Bounce entirely on the C6th neck and it sounded exactly like I was playing it on the E9th neck. Funny thing though. At that time, there was a steel guitar club here in the San Francisco area, and I was going to write a column for the newsletter about these changes and received a lot of negative comments from members about it that I stopped and said to hell with it. Seems at the time it was OK to try to get C6th licks on the E9th neck but it wasn't OK to try to get E9th licks from the C6th neck. Go figure. ------------------ |
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Ernie Renn Member Posts: 2657 |
posted 07 August 2000 01:16 PM
Buddy has only been playing his extended C6 tuning. With the exception of the Everly shows, he said he hasn't touched the E9 tuning. (Nice show, Herb! When's the next gig?) ------------------ |
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Frank Freniere Member Posts: 214 |
posted 07 August 2000 01:17 PM
Some time ago just for fun I tabbed out Winnie Winston's "Nashville to Bakersfield" in C6. I was surprised to find all the E9 "country" licks right there on the standard C6. |
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wayne yakes md Member Posts: 650 |
posted 07 August 2000 01:32 PM
Listen to Bobby Garrett with Hank Thompson or Weldon Myrick on George Strait's "Right or Wrong" and you'll know how effective C 6th playing can be. Garrett said that with Hanlk he played nothing but C 6th. Then listen to Buddy Emmons on the Gatling Bros tune "Houston" and you'll swear its C 6th, but it is E 9th! Go figure Herb! |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 07 August 2000 07:19 PM
Yesterday I attended an annual outside jam session with some jazz-playing friends. Another piano player was there, so I took my steel (D-10). It caused alot of curiosity (!) I wish I could say I played like Joe Pass, but I can't. I got by OK though, and had an offer for a jazz gig by the end of the night (which I accepted). It's hard to play when you have all these horn players staring at you with a mixed look of bewilderment and enthusiasm. One of the most curious was a trumpet player who sat next to me all night, staring at the thing with this look like someone who was lighting fireworks. He explained that he was surprised, as he associated the instrument with a type of music that he disliked, and asked about the 2 necks. I told him about the C6th tuning I had used all night, and a bit about the E9 as well, mentioning that I had stayed away from it intentionally to avoid that definitive country sound. He said "Well, thank you for that."  -John |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 08 August 2000 08:45 AM
For those interested, I posted the tab for Somewhere Over The Rainbow. I'm interested in any additions, changes, substitutions. Thanks |
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Gary Walker Member Posts: 1446 |
posted 08 August 2000 09:28 AM
Different strokes for different folks. I too like Herb and Jerry took up the steel because of the C6 when I heard Curly on the Travis album. I made a few changes like: my 9th pedal raises the E to F, my 7th pedal just raises the 3rd string C to D(my Thompson change is on the LKR) and my LV lever raises the 4th from A to Bb, so there are some E9 sounds I can get. The E9 is conducive for the human-like voicing like a duet or trio but the C6 is for that fat sound like a big band and also for that acapella(?) sound like Curly playing "Born To Lose" but not many players have the art for bringing out the full benefits of the C6 and consider it a place to rest their elbows and quite confidentially, don't understand it. When we don't comprehend something, we tend to pass it off as not relative. That borders on ignorance, Thanks, Gary |
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Bob Taillefer Member Posts: 656 |
posted 08 August 2000 03:42 PM
I love playing both necks. They both offer different sounds. When it comes to E9th, I find the tuning suits Country and Swing very well but when I'm playing bebop, C6th is best suited. I don't know about anybody else but I find it difficult, when playing bebop, to get from one position to another on the E9th. The same positions on the C6th are a lot easier to reach especially with a top D note. I like the idea of the Universal tuning but the thought of spending more time learning to play a 12 string, after 20 years on a double 10, does not appeal to me. Bob |
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