posted 04 February 2001 01:43 PM         

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 04 February 2001 at 02:38 PM.]

posted 04 February 2001 01:58 PM         

Many years later, when the E9 tuning came along, it was a natural counterpoint to the B6 tuning as evidenced by the Universal tuning of B6/E9 of today.

Another possible advantage of the lower B6 with the standard pedal set-up used today, is less string tension. I don't remember ever breaking a string other than the 2nd, which needs to be changed almost as often as the infamous 3d string on the other neck.

I don't know if any of my reasons are valid for going to B6 today, but I feel that they were when I made that decision years ago.
Gene Jones http://genejones.bizland.com

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 04 February 2001 at 02:01 PM.]

posted 04 February 2001 04:55 PM         

The history of C6th is as follows:

Back in the days of the 30's and 40's there were basically 3 major tunings for lapsteel:

1. E7th (or E13th) depended on east coast or west coast players mainly.

2. A6th

3. C# minor and some variations of C# minor

Jerry Byrd being a tuning inovator was fooling around and came up with C6th. And when he did, he invented the ultimate tuning for lapsteel, assuming there ever could be an ultimate tuning. Certainly in his hands it was just about absolute.

Well, the word spread quickly all over the US and outside the US as well. It soom became almost unheard of for players NOT to have C6th as one of their prime tunings. And for some, it was THE tuning. Surely most double and triple and Quad necked fenders would almost surely have C6th as one of the tunings. And that is still the case today.

On 8 string guitars, the tuning was:

E
C
A
G
E
C
A
F

The high G on the first string was a long time in coming.

When pedals came along, or pedals as a result of Bud Isaacs changing a plain E chord into a plain A chord, it was felt that various tunings would fall by the way side.

To some extent this was true. But a young man by the name of Buddy Emmons had a pedal steel and his bottom neck was C6th. Outside JB, NO player on earth had mastered the C6th tuning on lapsteel like BE.

So when he went to pedals, it was only natural that one of his necks would be C6th. Obviously the other neck was E9th, but with NO F#, D# and G# as is presently our first three strings.

3 of the pedals on C6th on his steel are a direct result of what JB did on his lapsteel. Pedals 5 and 6 was to emulate a certain slant that JB had perfected long before. One of BE's idols is JB. Pedal 8 was to emulate JB's tuning on a lapsteel:

E
C
A
G
E
C#

Pedal 7 was taken from a lick that "Western Swing" players like Noel Boggs and others used a lot.

The knee lever that lowers the C to a B was IMHO, because of JB's diatonic tuning:

E
C
B
A
G
F
E

Remember most pedal steels did not have but 8 strings for a long time. So many of the strings and changes we have now were not on there. They were still to come.

When BE had Shot Jackson build him the world's first D-10, that changed everything. And he added the high G on top.

And so it is that today our C6th bottom neck which most use as an arm rest (LOL), started back in the 30's (possibly 40's), by a young man fooling around and then another young man fooling around in the 50's.

And of course these two young men are the greatest ever been. So we owe most of it to them.

God bless JB and BE, and all of you,

posted 04 February 2001 05:10 PM         

quote:

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When BE had Shot Jackson build him the world's first D-10, that changed everything. And he added the high G on top.

---

Actually, Paul Bigsby made what I believe is the first 10-string pedal guitar, since his 1954 catalog offered "single, dual, and triple neck... eight or ten strings per neck," and Bob White's famous Bigsby is a triple-10.

Also, the first 10-string Sho-Bud was made for Bobby Garrett, and exists somewhere in South Texas, according to the gentleman that bought the guitar from Garrett.

Of course, both Gibson and Rickenbacker made 10-string lap guitars before WW2.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

posted 04 February 2001 05:54 PM         

b0b,
I'm not sure I understand this statement.
Does this mean that if your group does alot of numbers in F, Bb, Eb, and Ab you're better off playing a C6th, and if your group does more numbers in F#, B, E, and A, you're better off playing a B6th tuning? As fate would have it, our group does most of our swingin' in C, D, E, G, or A. I do get on some of the frets you mentioned, but havn't noticed a significant tuning issue. Maybe due to the Keyless tuners?
I heard that the Bb6th tuning was a better choice for playing with Eb/Bb instruments (ie. horns).

Also, I've spent very little time behind a D10. Do most guys play in such a way that the C6th strings vibrate while they are playing E9th? I always hear it called "an armrest".

Thanks for the info. I havn't heard those theories before.
-pete

posted 04 February 2001 06:47 PM         

The C6 pedal tuning is practically a copy of Alvino's E6. The same pedals 4-5-6-7. I was there and I played one......al.

High to low:
E-C#-B-G#-E-C#-A-E

I have used this on my (10) string by adding the F#-G#-on top of the E. Same setup as C6 only better for me as bar positions are same as E9. Both E open. I like that.
__________________________

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 04 February 2001 at 06:55 PM.]

posted 04 February 2001 07:25 PM         

It is highly possible you are correct. However I am not sure Bigsby ever sold a D or T-10 PSG prior to Shot making the one for BE. If he did I never heard tell of anyone owning one. But they just may have.

Also I was told that Shot built the first D-10 for Buddy. Seems I have a brochure somewhere around here that even says that. But I could be mistaken.

In any case I stand corrected if any of the facts are incorrect. And thanks dear friend for pointing them out.

It is too bad that better records were not kept so we would have accurate facts. But we don't. And some are clearly word of mouth. There are some who say that Joseph Kekuku did not in fact invent the Hawaiian guitar. We will never know for sure.

Like Jerry Bryd told me on more than one occasion, that HE invented C6. I have heard others say the tuning preceeded him. I believe him however. I know of know one using it before he did.

take care.

posted 04 February 2001 10:18 PM         

If Al Marcus says that Alvino Rey used E6th, then that's what Alvino used. Whatever tunings Alvino had back in the "singing guitar" days, he tried to keep them a secret. On the old 78 recordings Alvino sounds like he mainly hits a chord and slides it up, rather than to pick melody. The 6th chords he played could certainly have been done on an E6th tuning, or just be the result of a pedal change on his Electraharp, but they sure don't sound to me like the C6th tuning of today.

Not to stray too far off subject here, but I also heard or read years ago that Shot and Buddy (together) built the first D-10 Sho-Bud for Bobby Garrett. Dr. Wayne Yakes' recent article in issue #42 of Steel Guitar World Magazine also upholds this very same idea. This article states that Buddy had written in the liner notes of Bobby's 1985 album that he (Buddy) built the guitar's cabinet himself in 1958 and was dissatisfied with the way the inlay of Bobby's name turned out, although it didn't seem to bother Bobby Garrett. Buddy himself was evidently playing D-9 guitars at the time, one of which could possibly be the guitar that Dale Thomas later purchased when Buddy went to a D-10.

I don't know what year Bob White's T-10 Bigsby steel was built but according to Dr. Yakes' article, Bobby Garrett told him that Bob's Bigbsy was the instrument that inspired him to order a D-10 Sho-Bud. That would place Bob White's T-10 Bigsby in the mid-1950's which sounds about right to me.

As a side note, I was fortunate enough to meet Jerry Byrd in 1975 but never had the chance to meet Buddy Emmons nor Bobby Garrett. Now Bobby's gone. If I ever have the opportunity to talk with Buddy I'll probably be so awe-struck that I'll never even think to ask him about these things! Oh well...

Tim R.

[This message was edited by Tim Rowley on 04 February 2001 at 10:25 PM.]

posted 05 February 2001 08:06 AM         

On your B6th the 4th, 6th, 9th and 11th frets are the home frets for Eb, F, Ab and Bb. If you played with horns a lot, or played tunes out of the Real Book, you'd find yourself at those positions much more often.

To my ear, those frets are the hardest to intonate correctly, especially if you don't tune to equal temperament. I only assume that it's because of their odd relation to string length and harmonics. Maybe it's a figment of my imagination.

The C6th tuning is more neutral regarding key signatures than B6th. It has a small bias towards flat keys (the low F note), but as long as you have a small number of flats or sharps in the key signature you will do most of your playing at the easy frets. Do other people have the same problem that I have playing in E or B on a C6th?

I think that the trend towards equal temperament on the C6th neck really improves the intonation in remote keys like B, F#, Ab and Db. That's just my opinion, though.

posted 05 February 2001 09:22 AM         

When I play a traditional steel tune, I will almost always play it in the key in which it was recorded best (e.g. SGRag E, Panhandle E, Rem. Ride D, etc.)

However, when I'm working out an original arrangement I ten to naturally favor F, Eb, Bb, with forays into A, C, D and G. I really don't have any problems, per se with any of the keys, but I seem to really like the tonality of F and Eb on C6.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

posted 05 February 2001 10:40 AM         

quote:

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he avoided the 5th,7th and 12th frets like the plague because they were at the intersection of the vibrating nodes of the string and were either dead spots or overloaded by the harmonic overtones at those positions

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posted 05 February 2001 11:25 AM         

quote:

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I find no evidence of this as long as my left hand lies on the strings behind the bar.

---

Hey! I gotta check that one out!

Seriously though, Earnest, haven't you found that certain instruments have a propensity for sounding "better" in certain keys? As an example, I had a mandolin that to me had a more pleasing timbre in B than either Bb or C when played up the neck. I attributed it to sympathetic frequencies inherent in the wood/assembly of the instrument.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

posted 05 February 2001 12:50 PM         

quote:

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Earnest, haven't you found that certain instruments have a propensity for sounding "better" in certain keys?

---

Yeah, sometimes, but it's all in the mind. That doesn't mean it's not real. After all, the mind is not imaginary; it is very real. (So is brain chemistry.) (But I digress.)

[This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 05 February 2001 at 12:52 PM.]

posted 05 February 2001 05:07 PM         

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Have a good 'un! JH U-12