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Lloyd Green Tempered Chart? (Page 1)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Lloyd Green Tempered Chart? (Page 1)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Lloyd Green Tempered Chart? |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 03 February 2002 09:17 PM
Does LG have a personal tuning method or a prefered tempered tuning chart? Thanks Dennis |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 03 February 2002 11:22 PM
Yeah......."His Ear"....sorry Dennis I couldn't resist...but that is it though pal. Ricky |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 04 February 2002 05:12 AM
OK smart guy!  Now...for details... To which strings does he tune #1 & #7 ? Does he use compensators? Any other proceedure or tempered matchups? Are there any pedal combinations/string combinations that he avoids playing together to sound in tune? OK..now go Dennis |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 04 February 2002 02:04 PM
I don't know for a fact, but logic and some understanding of the subject of tuning (due to endless threads on the topic) leads me to believe that there is NO interval, harmony, or whatever that Lloyd would skip. For that matter, nor should anyone else. I am pretty sure that in the context of a fully orchestrated song, on a properly tuned guitar (whatever that means), any interval when played correctly should sound in tune. Absolutely my .01 cents worth (not even worth .02). And you should know that, if you ask the question "Why is that?", you run the risk of starting a thread that will have 100 posts, and no absolute answer to your question. YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!! |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 04 February 2002 02:15 PM
Lloyd Green uses bar slants a lot. I suspect that if, for example, he tunes his F# to the B string, and he wants to harmonize it with the pedaled C#, he would slant the bar a bit to correct the intonation. Just a wild guess, but I know that's what *I* do when I know an interval isn't going to be "in tune" with the straight bar. ------------------ |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 04 February 2002 02:41 PM
I do know there are "No" compensators on Lloyd's guitar. Jeff is quite correct of course. b0b has a good point. When I was at Lloyd's house and standing there watching him play(he tunes by ear and his F#'s are tuned to his B's)...he played of course perfectly in tune with every combination one could think of. The bar did what ever it took for any interval to be in tune with any other interval; as such a quick perfect effortless physical movement; that you could never tell any imperfections in any intonation....the adaption to perfect intonation on a non perfect instrument is an aquired art that only comes from training your ear to do so. Lloyd did make a couple of small adjustment on the tuning keys; as new strings were stretching; but I could not even hear it; but he swears they were there; and I ain't one to question LG. Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions but even if I asked Lloyd directly what your asking; that is exactly what he would tell me. Ricky |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 04 February 2002 02:46 PM
Yup!...a can of worms I used to do the same...slant a little to play A pedal and String #1. I have compensators now. And another...playing slightly sharp to the fret when using A pedal and F lever, which I think we all do? Does he ever play an open A chord (A&B down)? Does he tune the E's sharp to standard pitch? I realize there are more, but just was looking for LG's tempering methods as far as open tuning. Maybe he tunes the 1st string flat for pedals down and then slants sharp???? Just curious. Whatever he does it's "on". Ok...now unload...  Dennis |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 04 February 2002 02:50 PM
We were posting at the same time Ricky. Thanks for the info. Dennis |
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Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 |
posted 04 February 2002 05:10 PM
Very helpful Ricky, thank you. I understand that L.G. has found his old Sho-Bud, and is playing it again. I hope he records something with it. that would be awesome. |
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Paul Graupp Member Posts: 3199 |
posted 04 February 2002 07:21 PM
Now you guys who are in the know, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't I read somewhere that Jeff Newman, with Lloyd's cooperation, measured his tuning when Lloyd said it was tuned to his satisfaction. Those readings came up to or were the basis for the charts that Jeff has made so available to all of us. Maybe those would be what you need Dennis. Regards, Paul |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 04 February 2002 08:42 PM
Hi Paul... I've been using Jeff's tuning chart for several years. I tried his new chart which is tuned a few cents sharp to standard to be more in tune playing pedals down. I sounded out of tune to the other band members so went back to his original chart. Different strokes for different folks? I never heard the story about LG being involved with it. Maybe someone else knows for sure? |
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Steven Welborn Member Posts: 666 |
posted 04 February 2002 09:36 PM
Dennis, I had the same trouble when trying that tuning out. J. Newmans chart(just jammin) has the E's 10cents+. It sounded too out of tune when playing with any CD's or whatever if a song was in the key of E or A and I wanted to play a chord or riff using the open position. For me that made it more of an issue than simply learning to slightly re-adjust bar positioning over frets. So I backed off to 5 cents+ on the E's and it seems to work o.k. Up until recently I was tuning E's at 440 and never noticed any problem. I frankly dont understand why they should be sharp at all (yet). But 10 cents? I dont get it. I hope somebody can shed some light here. I'm glad this came up cuz I've been wanting to inquire on the forum but didnt want to start a tuning rukus. [This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 04 February 2002 at 09:40 PM.] |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 04 February 2002 10:43 PM
Steven...I sounded in tune to the band when I tuned Es to 440. When I tried tuning sharp, using Jeff's newest chart, I was sharp with the rest of the band. The open E was "out". I can see the justification tuning sharp to make the open A closer, but I would have to get used to playing a little behind the frets. I'd rather just skip the open A. Seems like I'd be sacrificing the E for the A?? Or maybe I'm missing something here? Dennis |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 05 February 2002 03:24 AM
When the pedals "A" and "B" are depressed; your E should be 440 and that would also make the A note 440. Let off the pedals and check your E note on the tuner and that is what your E note should be tuned to; to compensate for the inherant drop most all pedal steels have at one degree or another. With pedals down A chord....nothing should be sharp of 440....and your good to go. I hope that sheds a light on that without having to go find all my dang tuning method explaination charts again  . When Pedals are pushed on Lloyd's guitar.... the A note is 440 and E note is 440; and every thing else is tuned and played "by ear" open or otherwise.Ricky |
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Craig A Davidson Member Posts: 1722 |
posted 05 February 2002 05:49 AM
Dennis, Maybe it isn't you. Maybe it's Mark. Just kidding. I tune my open strings with the pedals down. I tried Jeff's tunings for a long time. Now I have gone back to straight up, with my 3rd and 6th just a few cents flat. It works good as far as I can tell. I tune both necks this way. Still gonna try to make it down to jam with you guys this spring. See you then. ------------------ |
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Steven Welborn Member Posts: 666 |
posted 05 February 2002 09:23 AM
So it's about cab drop.and guitars will vary. Now that clears it up. Thanks Ricky |
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Dave Robbins Member Posts: 718 |
posted 05 February 2002 09:37 AM
You have to remember that "only "A" is 440! It is a reference point for all the other pitches. If you are flat to 440 with your open "A" chord, you are "flat" just the same. Since the steel is a fretless instrument, you have to remember that it is our ears that we have to rely on and constantly adjust with the bar. Open "A" is one location you can not adjust with your bar. It is a fixed pitch, you might say. So if anything is going to be in tune, it better be the open "A" and that is at 440, which, like I said, is the reference for all other pitches, as long as "concert 440" is the standard. Dave [This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 05 February 2002 at 09:38 AM.] [This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 05 February 2002 at 09:40 AM.] |
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Ray Jenkins Member Posts: 1986 |
posted 05 February 2002 09:47 AM
Jeff Newnan once told ,right after LG tuned his guitar and he did it only by ear,Jeff put his meter on the guitar.Thats where he came up with his tuning.So if you use Jeff's tuning chart,you tune the degrees LG uses. Can't add no more to this.I guess Jeff himself would have to jump in her,thats highly unlikely though. Ray ------------------ |
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Olli Haavisto Member Posts: 593 |
posted 05 February 2002 09:57 AM
I think Buddy E. once said that "sharp is sharp,no matter how you slice it" or something to that effect.... ------------------ |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 05 February 2002 10:28 AM
I raised my E's about 5 cents a few years ago, on the advice of members of this Forum. I have never sounded more in tune. ------------------ |
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Ray Jenkins Member Posts: 1986 |
posted 05 February 2002 10:51 AM
quote: b0b,your saying you tune your E's too 445? Do you have A&B pedals engaged? I'm asking this because I have a problem with strings 3--4 and 5 group,pedals up or down.Emmons P/P Ray ------------------ |
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richard burton Member Posts: 1337 |
posted 05 February 2002 11:20 AM
All steels suffer with cabinet drop, some worse than others. It's no use tuning to Jeff's chart if your steel guitars cabinet drop characteristics differ from Jeff's steel. A mechanical device (compensator) is usually employed on the fourth string to keep it in tune when pedals A+B are down. |
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Olli Haavisto Member Posts: 593 |
posted 05 February 2002 12:02 PM
5 cents equals about 1 hertz on the hertz scale,right? |
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Dave Birkett Member Posts: 449 |
posted 05 February 2002 03:02 PM
Here's my question: If Jeff measured the guitar after Lloyd tuned it, what did Lloyd tune it to? I'm looking at Jeff's chart now, and the 3rd and 6th strings, with the pedals down (A notes), measure out at 441, not 440. Does that make sense? I don't get it unless the piano or whatever was used as a reference was tuned 1hz sharp. Respectfully, Dave |
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Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 |
posted 05 February 2002 04:42 PM
quote: I think it's closer to 4 cents, actually. When b0b says that he "tunes his E's to 5 cents sharp," I understand that to mean slightly above A441. About the Newman chart and the pedals down notes, I believe those numbers could be higher than 440 because the chart is to be used while only working the pedal or knee lever in question. In other words, you wouldn't push both A and B pedals at once to tune the "pedals down" notes individually. I've never seen instructions suggesting that more than one pedal or lever be used while using the chart. Am I wrong about that? |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 05 February 2002 05:08 PM
I tune my E's one notch sharp on the tuner. I like to stick to the notches. Anything in between is too tricky for me! Each notch on my tuner represents 5 cents of pitch. I don't know nothin' about Hz. ------------------ |
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Dave Birkett Member Posts: 449 |
posted 05 February 2002 05:08 PM
That's a good point. So, in other words, the pressing of the A pedal with the B pedal would, because of cabinet drop, flatten the notes from 441 to 440? It seems logical. |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 05 February 2002 06:02 PM
quote:That's exactly how I do it! I tune the A's, C#'s, F#'s, and E's with both pedals down. I tune the G#'s with the A pedal down and the C#'s with the B pedal down. I do go back and forth a little, especially when the open pitch changes from the last tuning, but this method seems to compensate for most of the cabinet drop. |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 05 February 2002 07:19 PM
Yup...the can is open! OK...some tune the E with AB down. I tried this via Jeff's chart. Then let up on AB and I sounded out with the band in open E. A sounded good though! However...anytime you use the bar you can compensate up or down a little over the fret and it doesn't matter. Or the vibrato takes care of the 1 or 2 Hertz. So who's on first? Nope!...where is on first!! Craig... I'll bet it was Mark! ?? You're welcome to jam with us anytime you get a chance to come down. Dennis |
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Bruce Bouton Member Posts: 324 |
posted 05 February 2002 07:40 PM
A few years ago Paul Franklin suggested tuning the E's to 442. I started doing that and it helped my intonation in the studio considerably. I don't have any compensators on my guitar though at times I've had one on my sixth string to pull it up ever so slightly when the A pedal is pressed.I would say that Lloyd, Paul , Weldon,Sonny and myself all tune basically the same. Get an E note and tune by ear. Most of the beats are tuned out of the guitar. As Weldon told me twenty years ago""tune your guitar then learn how to play it in tune". BB |
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Jim Phelps Member Posts: 2936 |
posted 06 February 2002 12:02 AM
I always tuned by ear because I never saw any tuners back then, maybe they existed but I never had access to one. Tuning "the beats out" by ear as we all know has it's inherents problems, well-covered (sometimes to death) here in the Forum. When I finally got my hands on a tuner I said AHA, now I can tune everything perfectly in tune! WOW, was that an awakening. You know how awful "straight-up" tuning sounds in a room by yourself. I went back to tuning by ear and working with the defects same way you all are discussing. Recently after reading about Buddy and some others who tune straight up I tried it again and it works. I'm as big a fan of Lloyd Green as anyone, but when have you ever heard Buddy sounding out of tune? "Tune your guitar and then learn how to play it in tune"..... Since no matter which tuning method we use we have to make some kind of compensation for inaccuracies, doesn't it just make sense and save a lot of anguish and time spent tuning to just tune straight up and be done with it? It sure is nice to be able to plug into a tuner and tune every string and pedal and sound the same no matter how much noise is going on wherever you're trying to tune. Plus, everything sounds in tune with the keyboards. Tuning out the beats always caused my 4th string to be flat with my 1st string when depressing the C pedal. Not now. If the bottom line is "learn how to play it in tune", that means the player must learn how to make corrections for the flaws no matter which method you use to tune it, right?...then what's the point of spending hours with tuning charts if you still have to do bar-slants to make it right in certain areas? I'm not political about tuning methods but it's sure more fun playing steel than tuning one, and tuning, and tuning, and tuning.... [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 06 February 2002 at 12:15 AM.] |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 06 February 2002 03:51 AM
I'm not willing to assume that the band is perfectly tuned to pitch. How many times have you noticed the steel guitarist fumbling around with the tuning keys, while the bass player, and guitarist are busy creating guffaw off the stage? My point is that if the bass guitar has one string flat or sharp to pitch, the steel guitarist will spend the entire evening trying to find the inharmonious problem. Bill H. |
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Olli Haavisto Member Posts: 593 |
posted 06 February 2002 04:43 AM
Bill is absolutely right!If everybody in the band uses a different tuner,that can cause problems,too. I once ran a check on the tuners in a band I played with and had a lot more problems playing in tune than I usually have.The bass players tuner was almost 10 cents off and when he started using mine the problem was more or less solved.I won`t even go into playing with mediocre double bass players... ------------------ |
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Carson Leighton Member Posts: 254 |
posted 06 February 2002 06:45 AM
Well, here we are again. I stayed away as long as I could. There seems to be some confusion over the note A-440. Folks, all this means is: -A- above middle C on a piano or keyboard is tuned to that frequency. That's how fast those sound waves are striking your ear drum. That's the only note that travels at that speed, unless you tune another one exactly the same. If you tuned another note to 441 cycles per second and struck the 2 notes at the same time, it will produce a beat between the two frequences of 1 beat per second. What this is doing is making the air strike your ear drum at two different speeds, thus causing a beat. The more you sharp or flat one note from the other the faster the beat rate is. There is no such thing as E-440, or everything tuned to 440. You'd be better off to forget about 440 and think of it in terms of cents, either below or above -0- on your tuner. You'd also be much off to tune your -A- a little bit sharp. This will accomplish two things. I will compensate for the stretch in piano ocataves, which I'm not going into at this point. It will also allow you to bring those C#'s up closer to -0- where they belong. I know it hurts, and makes you grind your teeth, but trust me, you will be more in tune with the other musicians. This will also allow you to bring up those E's to F on that change to within about 8 cents flat without two much grinding. Now you will be able to use that change without having to move your bar up and 1/8th to 1/4 of a fret sharp to be in tune. Your G#'s should be very close to -0- because on most guitars they are going to drop on the E to F change. I usually tune mine right up to -0-.....depending on what I've had for breakfast........Hope this helps some of you........Carson |
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Jim Phelps Member Posts: 2936 |
posted 06 February 2002 06:46 AM
I never assume that the rest of the band is in tune either, oftentimes they're not, and then no matter how perfectly in tune the steel is or what method you use to tune it, everything sounds awful anyway. Tuners are not all the same and ideally should all be calibrated to a tuning fork before beginning. A few minutes doing this sure makes a difference. If that's not possible, they can still be set to an A on the keyboards if you think that it's fairly accurate. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 06 February 2002 at 06:50 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 06 February 2002 08:29 AM
Most bands do play in tune these days, thanks to electronic tuners. Outdoor gigs can get a bit dicey, though. All of the modern steel guitars tune up easily and stay in tune. I disagree with Bill Hankey's statement about steel players spending a lot of time tuning between sets. I sometimes spend 2 minutes or so at the end of a set checking my tuning (especially outdoors). If guitar players spend less time, it's because they only have 6 strings! ------------------ |
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Jim Phelps Member Posts: 2936 |
posted 06 February 2002 10:21 AM
Shoot, I've seen quite a few regular 6-string guitar players constantly tuning too, they drive everybody nuts. I think there are some people who either just can't get an instrument in tune or perhaps can't play it in tune and unaware of that they blame the instrument and are constantly tuning. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 06 February 2002 10:29 AM
Some guitarists have a good ear but don't understand the ET vs JI issue. This causes them a lot of consternation when they try to tune by ear. |
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Dave Birkett Member Posts: 449 |
posted 06 February 2002 01:12 PM
I have a question for Bruce Bouton. When you tune your E's sharp, would you still be in tune with the band if you played an open (without the bar) E or A chord? |
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Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 |
posted 06 February 2002 05:11 PM
quote: Jim, I tune a lot of notes with both pedals , or a pedal and a lever engaged also. But, I just start with me E's at 442 and then tune by ear. My explanation above about using just one lever at a time was intended for the question that was asked about the Newman Chart. I've never seen it specified that both pedals should be pushed at the same time for tuning those notes. I'm still just guessing, though. I doubt Jeff N. would assume beginners would automatically push down both pedals to tune without that being specified in his instructions. |
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