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Emmons p/p vs all pull? (Page 1)
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Pedal Steel Archive
Emmons p/p vs all pull? (Page 1)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Emmons p/p vs all pull? |
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Erv Niehaus Member Posts: 5803 |
posted 14 February 2002 07:56 AM
I have a hypothetical question for you Forumites: If the p/p Emmons was such a great guitar what caused Emmons to start building an all pull guitar? Also, If the sound is sooooo superior to what is being built today, why doesn't everybody abandon the all pull and revert back to the p/p? Or maybe this hangup with the p/p is just some kind of a nostalgia kick? A curious mind wants to know!  Uff-Da! [This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 14 February 2002 at 07:57 AM.] |
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Bob Knight Member Posts: 3117 |
posted 14 February 2002 07:59 AM
It's a $$$$$$$ thing!!  |
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Earnest Bovine Member Posts: 4687 |
posted 14 February 2002 08:03 AM
There are plenty of push/pull Emmons guitars already so there is no reason (no market) to make more. |
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bob grossman Member Posts: 420 |
posted 14 February 2002 08:23 AM
With time, multiple raises and lowers became more common, as attested to by the triple raise/lower capability of all-pull guitars (some even more). The p/p requires a lot of work on the underside to do this. It is easy on the all-pull. I have never owned an Emmons p/p, but I do know the workings of the various changers from the patent drawings. |
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Dave Robbins Member Posts: 718 |
posted 14 February 2002 08:48 AM
There is no doubt that one of the best (if not "the" best) sounding guitars ever manufactured "or" recorded was the P/P. The "mids" go to tape so well. But with todays more compex pedal changes, the P/P's near 40 year old technology has a tough time staying up. It is more difficult to put on some of these long pulls and changes and still have a guitar that will play well. There are those who do an exceptional job of being able to put these changes on along with multiple knees/pedals, long changes such as whole tone drops, etc, (such as Mike Cass, Nashville Tn, Bryan Adams, Mountain City, Tn. to name some of the best), but for those with limited experience or knowledge about P/P's it becomes a tedious and often unsuccessful attempt and usually wind up with an instrument in ill playing condition. The all pull, while varying in tonal personalities, are easy to work on and adjust, and tune. They have all the latest in compensators, etc. And for the most part are used a lot in todays recording because of the ease at which they can provide us with new and complex changes. They usually play well, stay in tune, and are easy to work on with modest knowledge. And, don't forget, the all-pull has been around for a long time ( i.e. Sho-Bud, etc.) Tone is subjective, preferences abound as well as personal tastes, and who our favorite players are. These all have a lot to do with the sound we are after. If you are after that sound Buddy Emmons got back when, then you will probably lean towards the push/push type of sound. Those who liked Lloyds playing back when, will probably lean towards the Sho-Bud sound. If you are into Paul's playing, you might prefer the Franklin guitar sound, then there is Curly's sound and "Reece's sound, and on and on. Dave [This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 14 February 2002 at 08:50 AM.] |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 14 February 2002 08:59 AM
The major shortcomings are: No splits (except on Dave's guitar  )Only the max raise and lower are tuned at the endplate. If you have more than one of each, it is tuned underneath, which can be a pain. Mechanically, they're solid as a rock and stay in tune well when properly adjusted. Working around the shortcomings is the price one pays for the sound. Since this is a very subjective point, many choose to slightly compromise the sound - or readjust what they're looking for - to have a guitar that's easier to modify and maintain. I too have both push pull and all pull guitars and I love them all. Emmons guitars sound great, and there are other brands that do too. I'm particularly impressed with the sound of Jerry Fessenden's guitars -- somewhere in between a push pull and a ZB -- that's a good place to be. The first reply nailed the reason why push pulls didn't survive in the market: $$$ ------------------ |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 14 February 2002 09:06 AM
I bought my Franklin D-10 in 82, to replace a 71 PP Emmons. In that era, almost everyone wanted the all pull guitars. I understand one of the reasons Emmons quit building them was the dwindling market for the PP's. There was also the cost of producing the PP vs an all pull. My own experience comparing the 71 PP Emmons and my 82 Franklin is I've had about 10% of the maintenance problems in almost 20 years compared to 11 years with Emmons. With the Emmons at least once a month (and somtimes more) I was into the underneath "tweaking". |
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BobbeSeymour Member Posts: 5664 |
posted 14 February 2002 09:53 AM
09:57 AM.] [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 February 2002 at 11:39 PM.] |
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BobbeSeymour Member Posts: 5664 |
posted 14 February 2002 10:05 AM
Dwindeling market for the P-P? Kinda' makes you wonder why they are the fastest asending value guitars in the used market today.Most all are $2500.00 in good well-adjusted condition, to as high as $6500.00 for rare older models in unrestored , unmodifyed condition. I just wish someone would "Dwindel" some my way. Investment guitars? These are the ones. |
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randy Member Posts: 702 |
posted 14 February 2002 12:08 PM
I spent almost a year after I bought my P/P, trying to get the thing tuned and being afraid to play with the group because I couldn't get it right. I finally called down to Scotty's to see if anyone could help me. I can't remember if it was Don Curtis or Russ Weaver that spent almost an hour on the phone with me, walking me through tuning and adjusting. Bobbe is right. That was 10 years ago and I haven't had to get under the guitar again except when I changed a knee lever from the F# to the G# lower. I've been dying for a long time, to get a D10, (I have an SD10), and could have traded even several times but I am afraid that I would have given up a great guitar for a good guitar. I think this guitar makes me better than I am because I am confident with it. (and it black) [This message was edited by randy on 14 February 2002 at 12:16 PM.] |
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Allan Thompson Member Posts: 443 |
posted 14 February 2002 01:02 PM
Bobbe, you said it all. |
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Jim Eaton Member Posts: 1036 |
posted 14 February 2002 01:28 PM
I don't know the exact reason why they stopped making P/P's, but if you ever sit down to one, you'll find out why we love them so much! JE:-)> |
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Herb Steiner Member Posts: 6119 |
posted 14 February 2002 02:04 PM
Just a few random thoughts... I have several 1964-65 Emmonses and play them all professionally on the road all the time and have had very, very few, if any, problems with them going out of adjustment, out of tune, etc. Certainly no more than any guitar regardless of changer style that is constantly played and moved in and out of cars, trucks, and on/off bandstands. I have a list of 8 guys who regularly contact me to locate a 1964 or 1965 Emmons for them, though some would "settle" for a 1966-7 bolt-on. I would consider any 1964-67 Emmons under 3K to be an excellent deal for the purchaser, if the guitar was mechanically intact (not necessarily pro setup, just all the correct parts there). As Bobbe said, I know of no other modern pedal steel that is appreciating in value in the used market like the Emmons PP, especially the 1964-67 models. A very early Emmons woodneck (1164007)... not a wraparound..., once owned by yours truly as well as Paul Warnik and Mike Cass, sold three years ago overseas for $4000. I understand it is now on the market in Japan for way more than that. ------------------ |
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Erv Niehaus Member Posts: 5803 |
posted 14 February 2002 02:10 PM
I have another question for you Forumites. When the big E is recording or playing live, does he use a p/p or an all pull??? |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 14 February 2002 02:29 PM
You can get all that info here: http://www.buddyemmons.com/info.htm |
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Frank Parish Member Posts: 2327 |
posted 14 February 2002 03:47 PM
I've played the P/P's for years and got an all-pull Legrande II. I've played it the last two years. It's a good guitar and sounds pretty good but it's not the P/P. I recently traded it and got another P/P so I'm back to two of them now. Just the best guitar out there I think. You don't need a bunch of delays and rack stuff to make them sound good. They already sound good with an amp and a little reverb. That's it, nothing more. I haven't given up on the all-pull guitars because they're so easy to work on. I just haven't found one that compares to the old P/P and I really don't expect to. |
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Hamilton Barnard Member Posts: 695 |
posted 14 February 2002 04:12 PM
If someone is having trouble with a push-pull, it ain't the guitar 'cause that guitar left the factory playing perfectly. Bobbe talked me into buying my first one and now all I can say is, "Sorry Bobbe, I'm all done buying...you did too good of a job!" ------------------ |
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BobbeSeymour Member Posts: 5664 |
posted 14 February 2002 05:16 PM
Yep, the bad thing about selling a good push -pull is, there is nothing better to move up to! |
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Jeff Peterson Member Posts: 822 |
posted 14 February 2002 07:13 PM
I use Lashley III's on tour...they are bullit and stagehand-proof, and I really love to be able to tune straight up and have my open strings stay in pitch with any combo of pedals. When I play pick up dates in town, demo sessions, just about anything else, it is always a hoot to take my '79 PP. All my guitars are 9 + 8 and play and sound great. All are loaded with Bill Lawrence pickups. After being with Emmons for 30 years, I can still hear something special in the push-pull tone-wise. There just ain't no denying it...those guitars are the best for tone...bar none. Already stated...Lashley III's are my work horses, but that is only because I can't have 3 or 4 original Emmons set up the same...it'd break the bank, even if I could find them. I make my living with Lashley III's, they are the best guitars made today no doubt.....I'm glad I get to have a little fun with my push-pull, they were the best guitars made yesterday. If I owned a Ferrari F-50, I would still like to take my Austin Healey 3000 MKII out occasionally. |
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David Mullis Member Posts: 1413 |
posted 15 February 2002 06:17 AM
The only reason I have to get under my P/P is to change something. Once she's set, she stays that way and is usually pretty much in tune when I take 'er out of the case. |
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Jay Ganz Member Posts: 1626 |
posted 15 February 2002 08:47 AM
 (mp3 audio) |
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Bill C. Buntin Member Posts: 642 |
posted 15 February 2002 09:33 AM
I love both. I have one each. |
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Steven Welborn Member Posts: 666 |
posted 15 February 2002 11:25 AM
Thats one clean machine Jay. That would be a bolt on I take it. Im currious..you have particular problems with temp changes causing tunning hassels? Another thing if you dont mind, I've got a '72 flat back(cut tail). I was under the impression the flat backs had the same cabinet and end plate dimensions as nonflat backs and earlier models except for the back apron which simply ommited the cut out and left straight(flat). But from the looks of your photo, it looks as though the center section of the back apron is about the same (3") and the ends of the cabinet and endplates drop down further from there, making them larger then the flat back endplates. My flat back endplates are 3 1/4" deep (top to bottom on E9 side)and 3"(C6). How bout yours? Hard to tell from a photo. [This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 15 February 2002 at 11:29 AM.] |
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Dave Horch Member Posts: 628 |
posted 15 February 2002 01:20 PM
Nice Jay! So, whatchaknow...it really does sound better on a black guitar!  |
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BobbeSeymour Member Posts: 5664 |
posted 15 February 2002 08:38 PM
I load my guitars with Bill Lawrence pickups, but I never aim them at anybody! |
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Nick Reed Member Posts: 2713 |
posted 15 February 2002 09:29 PM
On my 66 D-10, I've had to tighten a rod collar once in awhile when the ALLEN SCREW losens. As much as I gig with it, I guess that's not to bad. Nick My 66' Push-Pulls |
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Steve Miller Member Posts: 97 |
posted 16 February 2002 09:31 PM
What I want to know is WHY the P/P has such great tone! Isn't it just a different changer design? What would that have to do with tone? Thanks |
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Geoff Cole Member Posts: 340 |
posted 17 February 2002 05:18 AM
Steve, they don't, Buddy sounds just as good on a barbed wire fence. |
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Buck Dilly Member Posts: 944 |
posted 17 February 2002 06:21 AM
Who cares why? Some things cannot be explained, only experienced. When I played my old guitar next to three other PP's I just knew. |
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Buddy Emmons Member Posts: 1403 |
posted 17 February 2002 08:10 AM
There are several missing ingredients in the Legrande guitars that could account for the sound difference, one, being the changer. The mechanism was mounted on the cabinet and pulled firmly against the end grain, which seemed to provide a more resonant vibration throughout the cabinet. As the years rolled by, between cost cutting and trying to make players happy, Ron Lashley made what he thought were subtle changes for the good. Each addition took away from the original design until the sound eventually became what I call a "ball park" replica. Don't get me wrong; to have a ballpark sound of the original is still saying a lot. I have two Legrande lll models, one of which I used on Gene Watson's last album. Just for the record, I used a Carter D-10 on Gene's Gospel album and for all practical purposes, I can't tell a dime's worth of difference, but what do I know? The P/P was discontinued mostly because of the increasing popularity of the all-pull mechanism. I would have to say economics had a little something to do with it as the stamped parts use for the A/P bell cranks cost less than those required for the P/P mechanism. In a few days, Ernie will have a story I wrote for the Emmons.com site that covers the origin of the Emmons push/pull guitar, the reasons that led to the features in the design, and how close it came to being a Sho~Bud. [This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 17 February 2002 at 11:52 AM.] |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 17 February 2002 08:34 AM
Apparently, Emmons is having trouble producing their present (all-pull) guitar. I'm sure they probably wouldn't want to take on the additional manufacturing (set-up) time to make yet another guitar. Also, at one time, most of the stuff heard on records was Emmons guitars, now it's Franklins and Zums. Like music, instruments change, and when you don't change with the times, you get left behind. (At least that's what everyone tells me.) |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 17 February 2002 08:34 AM
quote: If you don't NOBODY does.  ------------------ |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 17 February 2002 10:43 AM
I agree with you Larry Bell. I had three PP Emmons and two of them had the greatest tone of any of the dozen all pull guitars I played. However I had a couple of Carters and they come closer to the PP than any I have played...so time marches on.....al |
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Buddy Emmons Member Posts: 1403 |
posted 17 February 2002 10:59 AM
Donny, I don't remember ever telling you that. |
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Herb Steiner Member Posts: 6119 |
posted 17 February 2002 11:32 AM
quote: The story of my recent life. I just got a cell phone so I could sit at my desk and call my home phone to get reminded what a ringing telephone sounds like. The ringing helped me find it in the mountain of dust and cobwebs covering the receiver. Professionally around here, I feel like I'm in the "whatever happened to ol' Herb?" stage. ------------------ [This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 17 February 2002 at 11:34 AM.] |
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Nick Reed Member Posts: 2713 |
posted 17 February 2002 12:38 PM
I know we've been discussing tone quality of the Emmons push-pulls, but what about their feel & action. Personally, I really like the feel of my push-pull guitars. If set-up right they can be made to play as smooth as all-pulls. Mike Cass has worked on both of mine and they play great. I do own a LeGrande III so I know how an all-pull feels. I've heard some players like Bobby Boman comment on P/P action compared to all-pull. A few players have said they can speed pick better with an all pull. Does this make a difference in your opinion. Nick |
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Buddy Emmons Member Posts: 1403 |
posted 17 February 2002 01:06 PM
Nah... you either have it or you don't. |
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Bob Knight Member Posts: 3117 |
posted 17 February 2002 01:15 PM
 |
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Earl Foote Member Posts: 208 |
posted 17 February 2002 01:52 PM
quote: If 'yall need me, I'll be back here in the caboose. And send me those vintage Strats, Teles, Deluxe Reverbs, Push-pulls, etc. |
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Jay Ganz Member Posts: 1626 |
posted 17 February 2002 02:11 PM
There's still a lotta guys who, although they play their newer steels when on stage, when they're called for a session they play an old vintage steel. Strange why dey do dat! |
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