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Helper Springs - Help (Page 3)
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Pedal Steel Archive
Helper Springs - Help (Page 3)
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| This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Helper Springs - Help |
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Paul McClure Member Posts: 62 |
posted 22 February 2002 05:19 AM
After reading some of the recent posts on helper springs, I decided to take them off of my Sho-Bud Pro II Custom (1976). After 25 years, it really needed a cleaning so I pulled out the axel and cleaned everything - using carborator cleaner to get the grime off. It cleaned up very well - everything shines - and then I put it back together using the helper strings only on the strings that have lowers (2,4,8,9). I didn't lubricate anything except a drop of 3in1 oil on the main rivet on the fingers. The whole process seemed to go pretty smoothly - but now the pedals seem to be tighter (harder to press down) and more mushy. I also had to increase the length of the travel on some of the pedals (or levers). Is it possible the difference is due to the lack of helper strings? It's hard to believe they could have been doing anything because there was so little tension on them. Is this a typical result of removing helper springs? Are there other causes for these differences that could come from cleaning and reassembling? Thanks for any advice |
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Leon Roberts Member Posts: 285 |
posted 22 February 2002 06:37 AM
Paul, After playing a couple of early 70's Sho-Buds for 30 years or so, I have found that the helper springs should be installed on the raises only. If a string is lowered, I remove the helper spring. I have springs on 1,3,5,7,10. The remaining strings are lowered and have no springs. I have found that the string tension is sufficient to bring the lowered string back to pitch. Some folks might not agree with this, but I have found it to work best for my guitars. A PRO-III and LDG. Leon |
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Brian Herder Member Posts: 194 |
posted 22 February 2002 06:54 AM
It seems to me that you need to oil the axle, and the other parts of the changer, etc. that has any friction. I oil my Pro ll, every few weeks-month, and it makes a big difference..regardless of which oil I use (Teflon, or 3in1)- though, mine seems to like 3in1. |
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Joe Henry Member Posts: 909 |
posted 22 February 2002 08:48 AM
It sounds strange to me, Paul, that your pedals seem more mushy and harder to press after the cleaning. On mine, it was just the opposite, the action feels a lot more precise now and definitely not harder. It´s very much a "like new" feeling. And the pedal travel, at least in one case, actually became longer! I still don´t understand why. I gave a description of this phenomenon (and the idea that I got from it) in another thread ("I´ve got the Mooney change back"). Like Brian said, I think it´s important to oil every part where there is friction. I completely did away with all of the helper springs and didn´t notice any negative effects at all. On the contrary, it even straightened out some problems I had with lowers lowering to a certain point and then going up again. That don´t happen anymore now. Leon, the lowers are brought back to pitch not by the string tension but by the lower return springs. As for the raises, like Ricky Davis said, if everything is set up right, the tension of the string should be enough to bring the raises back... and at least on my guitar, it is. Regards, Joe H. [This message was edited by Joe Henry on 22 February 2002 at 09:00 AM.] [This message was edited by Joe Henry on 22 February 2002 at 09:05 AM.] |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 22 February 2002 11:15 AM
Paul a couple of reasons for this. First; get those raise springs outta there(those are the ones closest to the body)but don't remove the bracket that is attached to the body cause you may have a ground wire there. What may be causing this tight but mushy feel; is the allignment of your rods. When you took the changer apart; most likly you had to take rods out; so when putting them back; you may not have them in a perfect straight line from crank to changer; and you may have some rods running over or under others; so in essence, when pulled; the rod will move sideways or up and down flex instead of just moving forward and back.....make since?? I've done this re-roding thing quite a bit; to get the perfect movement of every rod....and everytime I tried moveing a crank here or there to move a rod a little; the more I kept diggin' myself in a hole. Finally; I took them all out....upside down; starting with the 10th string....get that rod and bell crank perfect in line...then go to next finger; than next....then next until you have them all in and in line and nothing binding others and so on. Good luck. Ricky |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 22 February 2002 11:33 AM
I'm a little confused here. What's a "helper spring" on a '76 Sho-Bud? Are you talking about the changer springs that return the lowers to pitch, or springs that help pull the raises somehow? ------------------ |
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Paul McClure Member Posts: 62 |
posted 22 February 2002 12:23 PM
I hope I understand this right too Bobby. The springs I removed are the ones that are attached to the bottom of the fingers. They run from the finger along the body (underneath) of the guitar to a bracket, as Ricky described. They have very little tension and other people mentioned that they frequently fall off on their Sho-Buds. I kept the ones that are connected to the fingers that lower strings - since they help return lowered strings to pitch. This is what I've learned from the recent posts on this topic, although Leon's reply above was just the opposite. I do appreciate the help guys - Ricky, I'll try the things you suggest. I agree with you on the rods not being just right. I'll also get some lubrication on it. I'm still going on faith that the helper springs aren't needed - any reenforcement would be great... thanks again, ------------------ |
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Joe Henry Member Posts: 909 |
posted 22 February 2002 02:21 PM
A word about the lower return springs. They do not just help bringing lowered strings back to pitch, but essentially do bring them back to pitch. If you think about it, since the tension of the string is not augmented but reduced whenever a lower is engaged, it would be physically impossible for the string to return to pitch if there wasn´t some kind of counter-balance. If you don´t believe it, just take one of the springs out on a lower and see what happens. And they have another task, to keep the lower fingers in place. If the tension on the lower return springs is too low, the lower finger will move along with the raise finger every time a raise is engaged, and this can have some ugly side-effects. So by all means, keep them all in and make sure that they have enough tension. I understand on older ProII/III´s, such as Ricky´s, they have adjustment screws. I have a late ´70s model with double raise/double lower and on mine they are fixed. In that case you can shorten them a thread or two but I messed it up so I decided to replace them all with slightly heavier springs. It was a lot of work, but it definitely helped a lot. Good luck, Joe H. |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 23 February 2002 01:45 AM
Ok to be clear....."Keep all the Lower return springs On Your Guitar"......You can take off the raise return springs...and those are the little no tension worthless useless springs against the body of the guitar that have NO affect on anything whatsoever........ Cool Paul lemme know how it works out. Ricky |
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Leon Roberts Member Posts: 285 |
posted 23 February 2002 07:56 AM
I'm sorry Guys, I meant to say that string tension was sufficient to bring the "Raised" string back to pitch even with the helper spring on it. Having to hunt the keys to type leads to errors like that. I have no problem with a guy doing whatever he desires to his guitar. Years ago I had taken my springs off. I put the helper springs back on my raises. It might have been a mental thing, but my guitar seemed to play easier. All I was trying to accomplish with my earlier post was to suggest that ,in my opinion, the helper springs should be on the raises and not the lowers. This was my sole purpose in posting. Trouble shooting a guitar miles away is something I would rather not attempt. I'm 67 years old and both my Sho-Buds are operating much better than I. If I can survive carring them into the gig, it pretty much smooth sailing until it's time to carry them out. Once again let me apologize for the error in my statement. Leon |
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Erv Niehaus Member Posts: 5803 |
posted 23 February 2002 09:43 AM
If the springs aren't necessary why were they put on there in the first place? If it isn't broke why try to fix it??? Just play the thing!  Uff-Da! |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 23 February 2002 02:21 PM
They were put on there as an experiment....the Experiment didn't work. Ricky |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick Member Posts: 1234 |
posted 23 February 2002 06:07 PM
Bob: Since no one answered your question. I used to own an old Sho-Bud, Pro-I. All the cross shafts had a spring attached to the guitar, next to the front apron. When the pedal (knee or floor) was activated,this spring helped the cross shaft return to the original position. I hope you can understand my rambling. These springs, IMHO did nothing but add to the stiffness of the pedal or knee lever. As has been stated: If the guitar is operating properly, these springs have no function. Somewhat like a third boot when you only have two feet. BTW, The Red Mullen offered for sale on Buy and Sell seems to have these springs also. The photos show them. Look at the end of the cross shaft. Hope this helps [This message was edited by Jim Bob Sedgwick on 23 February 2002 at 06:08 PM.] |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 23 February 2002 07:23 PM
The springs in question are not the ones that are attached to the crossbars or pedals. The springs called "raise springs" are attached to the top section of the changer(the raised section)..so underneath the guitar; they are the ones closest to the body and are attached to the fingers on one end, and to a bracket that is affixed to the body of the guitar, at the other end. The springs were put on the guitars to help the raise come back and to hold the raise section of the finger; when a lower is actuated. But the as found out; the springs offered no assistance in a raise to come back, because the string had more resistance than a spring could have. But you can't put a tighter spring on there because then you have way too much tension to pull a raise. Also to have the springs on there to hold the raise finger while lowering a string is of no value at all; because the raise fingers are closest to the axle and will not move from the pivot point as a lower is actuated simply because of leverage. So as you can see from my explaination....those raise springs offer no value at all; the only thing they do do is sometimes fall out or come unattached and hang there and make a clankin' noise or get wedged inbetween fingers if your lucky....ah....ha. And b0b these are the springs in question; and not the ones Jim just metioned...I don't know where he got that idea....??? Ricky |
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Paul McClure Member Posts: 62 |
posted 23 February 2002 07:33 PM
Thanks for the clarification Leon. My 46 year old back is struggling now – I hope I’m doing as well as you when I’m 67. quote: Erv – I guess it’s not really broke – but it’s along way from a smooth running machine. My Sho-Bud has lots of good things about it – but the mechanics aren’t great. One of the things that I’ve always liked about steel guitars besides the great music they make is the mechanical side of it. I like to get underneath and try to make it work a little better. It bugs me when I’m playing if I think things aren’t working right. I’ll always be searching for that perfect tone and a steel that works so well I don’t even think about it. Also, I’ve learned a lot about my guitar from doing this – I have things pretty much back to normal now. I believe most of the problem was due to rods not aliened properly. I also put back a rod guide that I left off. I thought it wasn’t doing much and was only another point of friction. Turns out it really stops the long rods from flexing and makes the pull a lot straighter. Ricky – you can add me to the list of happy campers that you’ve helped and encouraged on this forum. And again I thank everybody for your help… ------------------ |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 24 February 2002 01:18 AM
Alright Paul; good to hear my brother. Ricky |
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Brian Herder Member Posts: 194 |
posted 24 February 2002 08:54 AM
Hey Ricky, I was just reading through this thread again, and I noticed your comment about not removing the raise spring bracket because it may have the ground wire attached there. Once the springs are removed, the bracket/ground wire would no longer make contact with the changer, leaving the guitar ungrounded. If there is a ground wire attached to this, you would need to relocate it to the changer anyway. Brian |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 24 February 2002 09:37 AM
Also quote:I believe the term for these springs is "raise helper springs". Since they are tension not compression springs, their purpose is to make raises easier, not to help raises return. The string tension is enough to do that. |
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Joe Henry Member Posts: 909 |
posted 24 February 2002 09:47 AM
Brian, I was wondering about the same problem. I have found that at least on the C6 side, and that´s where the ground wire is attached to the bracket on my guitar, the pull rods closest to the bottom of the guitar are in touch with the bracket, thus making an electric connection to the changer. I actually tried this out, took the brackets out at first and grounding problems, hum etc. occured. I fixed the wire to a screw on a knee lever, but that didn´t look nice to me, so I put the brackets back in, with the wire underneath as before, and the hum was gone - that means it must work that way. Regards, Joe H. |
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Brian Herder Member Posts: 194 |
posted 24 February 2002 10:55 AM
Joe- If the rods are rubbing the bracket, I would think two undesirable things would be occurring. First, you would have unwanted extra friction on there, and secondly, the grounding connection there (if I understand you correctly), would not be as direct as you would want. I think the best place for the ground wire would be to the screws that hold the body of the changer to the guitar. I don't have that ground wire on mine at all. I don't know if it's because it has E66s (came that way), or because the screws at the back of the changer are in contact with the endplate. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 24 February 2002 07:20 PM
Could these springs help transmit vibrations to the body of the guitar? If so, removing them might decrease sustain a bit and hurt the tone. ------------------ |
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Brian Herder Member Posts: 194 |
posted 25 February 2002 06:36 AM
Bobby- These springs are so loose that they can actually come off. Any resonance that would make it to the body through these would be intermittent at best. |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 25 February 2002 01:43 PM
Actually the ground wire there can just be stapled to the wood of the guitar and your grounded....that's how all the Fenders are grounded.....it doesn't nessesarily need to be affixed to the changer......just affixed somewhere... b0b; there was "no" tone or sustain difference when I removed them....so I'd venture to say..."it don't make a difference there". Ricky [This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 25 February 2002 at 01:44 PM.] |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 25 February 2002 01:52 PM
quote:Not so Ricky, wood doesn't conduct electricity. The pickup should be grounded to the metal frame of the guitar. This can be done at the ground lug of the output jack or another spot on the guitar that has a physical connection to the output jack. |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 26 February 2002 02:13 AM
I believe we are talking about two different ground wires; and yes Jim on the ground wire your talking about, that is correct. Ricky |
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