The '73 (which was made by Baldwin) has real F holes, no mute, no vinyl pad, and the neck joins the body at the 17th fret, which IMHO is a big improvement.

I feel that the '73 is the better of the two.

I always looked at the newer models, with the painted F holes as a more commercialized model.

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It had real F holes and did not have the pad on the back. I always thought that model had a lot better tone than the later ones with the painted F holes and the pad on the back.

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Jack, I also prefer the tone of the one with the real F holes. But I like them both. The mute on other one gives off a unique marimba like tone that can't be acheived any other way. Unfortunately, the mute makes the whole guitar sharp, but I just re-tune when I use it.

Unlike other companies, Gretsch constantly changed the design of thier guitars. The Country Gents from the 50's have a single cutaway. Soometime around 1960 the company redesigned the guitar and made it a double cutaway, but they kept the neck heel at the 14th fret. The guitars from around '64 and '65 have 2 mutes, each covering only 3 strings, that operated independently from each other. By '67 (the year mine was made) they switched to a single mute covering all 6 strings. By '69 or '70 they abandoned the mutes altogether, and 2 or 3 years later when Baldwin bought the company they went back to using real F holes, and moved the heel of the neck. But today (now that the company is back in the hands of the Gretsch family) their version of the guitar (which they call the Country Classic) has the painted F holes, and the neck heel is back at the 14th fret. (A mistake in IMHO)

Paul Yandell is a frequent contributor and he is usually assumed to be the authority on most things related to Chet Atkins. If he doesn't know an answer, there are usually several others who do.

Regards,

So I took it over to a local luthier who did excellent work and what he did was actually plane down the 'heel' section, recut fret divots, and refretted the entire guitar. The fretboard was ebony and the axe was a sunburst finish. It played beautifully
after that. It was a rather large and deep bodied model, and had real 'F' holes. The
tuners were the old gold-plated Grovers that
were the 'stepped' style.

But like as all things turn out, I traded it in against some other guitar, a Martin D-35,
I think.

A friend of mine around here had a small- bodied Gretsch as was mentioned previously. It was orangey in color and was a real beauty
to play. I think for a while there, Neil Young played one of these Gretsches, back in the early Buffalo Springfield days.
FWIW

[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 30 July 2001 at 01:41 PM.]

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back in the early Buffalo Springfield days. FWIW

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(Thought you could slip this one past me, dincha, Chipster? )

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www.jimcohen.com

There is some footage of Crosby Stills Nash and Young performing back in the 70's with both Neal Young and Steven Stills playing Gretsch White Falcons.

Don't get me wrong, I like my tele, but there is something special about those Gretsches. They just have so much class.

The top-of-the-line Gretsch White Falcon models are Jimmie Webster creations.

Chet did ask for the closed F-holes, and the zero fret.  Before Chet had the zero-fret idea, he had Gretsch installing a metal nut.

Chet hated the original DeArmond pickups that Gretsch was using, and had his friend Ray Butts invent a new pickup.  Ray's pickup was a humbucker, and became the Gretsch FilterTron pickup.  About the same time Seth Lover at Gibson invented his humbucking pickup.  Both Ray and Seth have patents on humbucking pickups.  Neither knew the other was inventing a humbucking pickup.  Gretsch and Gibson decided mutually to let both patents stand.  Ray Butts claims he actually invented his first.  Ray is still around.  Seth Lover passed away in 1997.

Some features Chet asked for from Gretsch he never did get, like more solid bracing inside for more sustain.  The relationship with Gretsch was always difficult for Chet.  Chet did most of his recording from 1959 to about 1983 or so with one particular 1959 single cutaway Gretsch Country Gent.  He would play newer models in concerts, as part of promoting the sales of the guitars.  Chet sent that 1959 Gretsch and four other guitars to the Country Music Hall Of Fame a few weeks before he passed away.

The stories about Chet Atkins and Gretsch could fill a book.

Fred Gretsch sold the company to Baldwin in the late 1960's.  Baldwin messed the company up in many ways.  Moved manufacturing to other states, suffered two factory fires, lost most of the people, and built a lot of junk.  Finally the whole thing went bust.  Another Fred Gretsch who was maybe 20 years old at the time Gretsch was sold to Baldwin managed to eventually recover the rights to the name and products lines, and has rebuilt the company over the last 20 years.

I agree with Mike that the change in neck mount of the double Cutaway country Gent (which happened under Baldwin) was an improvement.  That feature is still available on a few of the new models.  During the Baldwin era Gretsch managed to drop some of the silly Jimmie Webster gadgets.  Personally I prefer the closed F-holes of the older models and the zero fret which began to disappear in the Baldwin era.

I agree with Mike that "there is something special about those Gretsches. They just have so much class."  Most Gibsons are better made, but there is just something about a Gretsch that other guitars don't fulfil.

Chet stayed with Gretsch until the elder Fred Gretsch passed away.  He felt he owed it to him.  But Chet was quite unhappy with the Baldwin era guitars from Gretsch.  He was never entirely happy with any of their guitars.

The first Gretsch Chet Atkins model in 1954 was decorated with all sorts of "western" paraphenalia, like a horseshoe inlay, and a belt-buckle tailpiece, and a big "G" brand on the guitar body.  Chet didn't ask for any of that, and was somewhat shocked by it.  That was Gretsch marketing in Brooklyn NY trying to guess how to sell guitars to a "country" clientele.  The orange color of the early models (not the later Country Gents) was Fred Gretsch' idea, but Chet approved that.

The whole thing began with Chet being approached several times by Gretsch about endorsing a guitar.  Chet kept telling them he didn't like their guitars, so they finally asked him to design one.  He did, and they built a prototype, and it went from there, with Gretsch sometimes listening to Chet's wishes, and sometimes going off on their own tangents.  Chet called Les Paul to find out what royalties he should get.  As far as I know, that arrangement was never disclosed.

The model name "Country Gentleman" is taken from a tune Chet composed and recorded in 1953.  Chet claimed that name belonged to him.  When Chet switched to Gibson, where he had a somewhat less strained relationship, he let Gibson make a "Country Gentleman", that is pretty much a Gibson-ized copy of that 1959 Gretsch Country Gent.  The present Gretsch company does still make the guitar, but under the model name "Country Classic".

If you want to know a lot about Chet's guitars (Gibsons old and new, D'Angelico, Del Vecchio, Gretsch, Martin, Hascal Haile, and others), there is a great book on that subject which was released this past April, just a couple of months before Chet died.  It is expensive ($150.00), but is quite well done, with good writing, lots of Chet's comments and stories, and extensive well-done photography throughout.  Most of the photos were taken recently in Chet's home and in his office.  The book is "Chet Atkins - Me And My Guitars", and has to be purchased directly from the publisher Russ Cochran.  Here's a link:
http://www.russcochran.com/Chet_Book/chet_book.htm

[This message was edited by Richard Vogh on 30 July 2001 at 03:55 PM.]

I am a little surprised to learn that Baldwin made some bad guitars. My '73 country gent is a gem. As I said earlier, I prefer it to me '67 which was made while the Gretsch family owned the company. I've only seen one other Baldwin era Gretsch, a BLACK falcon, which is structually identical to my country gent. The difference is the black color and gold trim.

NOW..................that was 'clear, and over here'....... great tone and smoothness.
It was some pretty flawless playing. Thanks
for being part of that super day.

I don't know the whole Gretsch story, but I have been interested in Gretsch since the early 1960's, and have two different books written in the 1990's about only Gretsch guitars, and a couple of old catalogs.  But I think the serious Baldwin-Gretsch quality problems came toward the last of the 1970's and early 1980's, followed by the whole thing going bust in the early 1980's.

The old Gretsch company always had quality problems that came and went.  The only Gretsch guitar I have (and ever had) is a 1964 Tennesseean.  Gretsch production volume was way up during that era.  Chet Atkins had become widely known, but when The Beatles appeared on the Ed Sullivan show in 1964, and George Harrison was playing a Gretsch Country Gentleman (that is probably just like your 1967 Country Gent), sales really took off at Gretsch.  My 1964 model has a bad bend in the end of the fingerboard, toward the strings, where it changes from over the neck to over the body (caused by the neck being mounted at the wrong angle to the body), and the fingerboard surface is rather roughly finished.  That is plain old sloppy assembly work when the guitar was made.  The previous owner I bought it from (in 1972 or 73) had the truss rod way out of adjustment, and the whole neck was curved, so I missed recognizing the problem, thinking I could adjust it out.  Adjustment did straighten the neck, but could not fix the bend at the neck to body joint.  Someday when I can afford it I hope to get that guitar a neck set job, thus correcting the mounting angle.  For now, I just don't make much use of the higher frets, and the rest plays OK.  The action could be even lower, with the problem fixed, though.  One of the two shoulder strap lugs was screwed crookedly into the wood, too.  As far as I know, the new Gretsch company has been a lot more careful about letting sloppy work get out.  I have heard complaints about the switches they currently use being inferior to the old switches made by Switchcraft.

It boils down to once you get hooked on a Gretsch, you gotta have one, and you find ways to work around, fix, or put up with, the problems.  That's probably true of most guitars.

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I wasn't aware they made any Black Falcons back then.  But there were occasional custom guitars made by the old Gretsch, and perhaps by the Baldwin Gretsch too, that turn up from time to time and confuse everybody.  Three days ago I saw a single cutaway Gretsch Country Gent with Gibson-style humbucker pickups on it, and it had 1970's Gretsch knobs.  I think it was a 1960 or so model that has been tinkered with, possibly multiple times.

I have seen Black Falcon models on the website of the new (restored) Gretsch company during the past year or two.

An interesting tidbit on the White Falcons is the gold sparkle binding used around the edges.  Gretsch did, and still does, make drums, too.  That gold sparkle is drum material.

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Here is an intersting Gretsch picture from 1958 showing Chet Atkins and Jimmie Webster.  Since it is wider than a screenful, I am making it a link you have to click on, so it doesn't foul up the width of this forum thread.
Click Here

So far nobody has identified just what is the gadget on top of the Bigsby on Chet's guitar.  Bigsby Palm Pedals came along later than that.  The question has even been put to former Gretsch Company man and current Gretsch Parts dealer Duke Kramer, and he didn't know.
 

[This message was edited by b0b on 13 August 2001 at 06:47 PM.]

The workmanship on the solidbodies was generally much better. And hey, if the Silver Jet ain't the koolest lookin' guitar on the planet, I don't what is.

What I would love to hear more of is the Gretsch/Tele combo in R&R: it's such a great blend of tones--the Byrds, Beatles & Beach Boys definitely had the right idea [and how's that for alliteration??!?]. I think it's a more interesting tonal combo than the ubiquitous Les Paul/Strat.

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I think the serious Baldwin-Gretsch quality problems came toward the last of the 1970's and early 1980's

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There is (as far as I know) only one difference between my '67 and George Harrison's guitar. His has the double mute system. Mine has a single mute covering all 6 strings.

Like Chet amd Merle Travis, when I want to mute the bass strings I use the heel of my hand rather than the mechanical one. But the Mechanical one gives off a different kind of tone, and I find it useful when I'm working on a recording to have as many different sounds at my disposal as possible. I have used the mute occasionally. Unfortunately it also throws the guitar out of tune, and so I have to re-tune whenever I use it. I personally find it useful, but it really is kind of a dumb idea, I can understand why so many players removed them when they bought the guitars.

The guitars with the mutes also had a 4 by 6 (approximately) inch hole in the back to allow access to the inside of the guitar. This is covered by a plastic cover, and then again by the vinyl pad. I've looked inside mine, and the internal bracing is against the top of the guitar. On the '73, as far as I can tell by looking through the F holes, the bracing is against the back, and there are some tone posts against the top. I can't really tell, and I'm not about to cut any holes in the guitar to find out.

quote:

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There is (as far as I know) only one difference between my '67 and George Harrison's guitar. His has the double mute system. Mine has a single mute covering all 6 strings.

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My 1964 Gretsch has the sound post, along with the closed top (painted on F-holes).  In a quiet room when playing the guitar unamplified, it is fun to tilt it forward, and listen to the sound from the back of the guitar.

My Gretsch guitar, which lacks the Jimmie Webster "junk" (as some call it) [the mute, the padded back, etc.], has no F-holes and no coverplate on the back. The only access to the insides is through the pickup holes.

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Why do guitars have tops and backs, but not fronts and bottoms ?!

[This message was edited by Richard Vogh on 01 August 2001 at 12:12 PM.]

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his is worth a bijillion dollars more than yours

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Btw, is the box set also called FWIW?

This compilation was Neil's project from the get-go, so you know it's going to be well done

[This message was edited by b0b on 13 August 2001 at 06:46 PM.]

The owner of Vega had inherited the venerable old company from his father & was notorious for trying to increase profits at the expense of reduced quality. At one point, he began ordering prefabricated banjo necks for use in our lower line of instruments. I don't remember the name of the manufacturer of those necks now, but they also supplied necks for Gretsch. The wood was soft, porous & very green, with a thin lamination of some cheap, dark wood down the center of the necks -- and was identical to what Gretsch was using. Sometimes as many as 50% of the ordered stock arrived with the two halves of the neck separated at the lamination.

In those days, I played a Gretsch guitar I had owned for a few years. Realizing what kind of necks Gretsch was using, I never bought another. My next guitar was a Gibson 330 -- which I still have & treasure.

[This message was edited by Bill Fall on 02 August 2001 at 12:25 PM.]

I have repitched several Gretsch 60s model Country Gentlemen guitars and seen more than I wanted to that needed it. Most of the hack luthiers just plane down the end of the fingerboard and that is just lame! Screws up the pitch of the strings over the bridge from the Bigsby.

Problem with the Country Gent neck joint is that it is cut with so much slop in it you can't believe it. The mortise is filled in on both sides with some pieces of veneer and then glue is virtually poured in and then they string it up! It last for a while and then everything gives up and the neck shifts.

The best repair is to make a wedge out of mahogany that makes full contact with the back, and then make two shims for the sides of the neckslot that are really tight. use a little Titebond glue and press fit it together. 1 million times better!!

VERY expensive repair if done right. You got to take all the binding off the neck, remove the last 1/4 of the fingerboard, drill out that ebony circle that by the way hides a doggone wood screw that goes into the neck joint!!!! The you have to replace all that after repitching.

The thing that makes the Gretsch guitars interesting is the thing that makes all guitars interesting---the sound. Gretsch sounds like Gretsch-Fender sounds like Fender -Gibsons sounds like Gibson--and on and on.

The Atkins recorded sound is a thing of wonder from say 1960-63. Bill Porter engineering is a HUGE part of the sound. 59 or so Country Gent with a lot of wood in the center of it. They only made that model for a few years. Standel amp with 705s in the output!! Neuman mike. Low volume and the EMT plate on stun!! Beautiful bass and the eveness of the guitar is just incredible. My fav Chet period.

The 70s was full of that awfull "isolation" sound and the newer recordings by Atkins with the Gibson guitar are a totally different sound.

This thread makes me wish I had all those 59 Gretschs I bought for $75 each in the 70s back. There was quite a period of time when nobody wanted to be caught dead with a Gretsch!! Not until the Stray Cats came on the scene did the value of the old Gretsches make a comeback.

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What are they worth nowdays?

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Does your guitar have real F holes? or are they painted on? Does it have the vinyl pad in the back? And does the neck meet the body at the 14th or 17th fret?

What do you Gretch experts think of the current Gretch line ?

They're made in Japan, right?

Still prefers my 1955...

Andy

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1961 Sho~Bud D-9:1962 Sho~Bud D-10 : 1969 Emmons D-10 : Bigsby T-8
about me
My steels
ShoBud Gallery

[This message was edited by Tele on 12 August 2001 at 10:45 AM.]

The "new" Gretsch guitars, most or all of which are built in whole or in part in Japan, are really nice guitars.

My impression, the few times I have briefly handled new Gretsches from the 1990's, is that they are rather heavy, more so than the old ones.  But that may not be correct.  It's just an impression, and not a genuine comparison.

I've read that the switches on new Gretsches are lower quality, and that they can be replaced by better switches.

I'm still looking for the Gretsch, old or new, with just the right combination of features I want, and at a time when I can afford it!.  For a while Gretsch had a custom shop in the USA during the 1990's, but I think they have since abandoned that.

I am very glad that Gretsch still exists as a real entity, owned and operated by a real Mr. and Ms. Gretsch, and not bound up in multiple succesive acquisitions and mergers, etc.  It's amazing that Gretsch is still around, considering that they were thoroughly run into the ground during the Baldwin era. 

Actually, virtually every old major musical instrument maker (of guitars, brass horns, woodwinds, etc.) has fallen on hard times, and has been through devastating ownership and manufacturing changes and a resurgence, sometime between the 1960's and the 1990's.