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Author Topic:   Minor sixth?
Greg Vincent
Member

From: Los Angeles, CA USA

posted 19 August 2002 08:17 AM     profile     
Hi folks,

What is the name of the chord spelled 1-b3-5-6? The 6th in this case is the 6th from the major scale.

Is it a minor sixth? When we say a chord is a sixth are we always talking about the major 6th note, even if the third is minor?

Anyway, this chord is great to use as a 4m in a 4-4m-1 resolution.

Thanks!

-GV

Earnest Bovine
Member

From: Los Angeles CA USA

posted 19 August 2002 08:48 AM     profile     
Yes, that chord is called a minor 6th chord.
Some possible voice leading for your IV -> IVm -> I progression in the key of C:

  A    Ab     G
  F    F      E
  C    D      E
  C    C      C
(IV)  (IVm6) (I)

In the IVm chord, the 6th note is D. It works because D is in the C major scale, and singers like to sing D, and people like to heard D. What we don't like so well is an E flat in that chord. That could happen when an ignorant guitar player plays Fm7 while the singer sings D. Icky-poo!

Greg Vincent
Member

From: Los Angeles, CA USA

posted 19 August 2002 09:49 AM     profile     
Cool, thanks Earnest. Nice use of the phrase "Icky-poo"

How would we name a chord that happened to use the 6th from the minor scale? Is it just called an augmented fifth?

-GV

Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 19 August 2002 09:55 AM     profile     
An example of that IVm6 is in the tune "Blue Bayou" (I think).
Earnest Bovine
Member

From: Los Angeles CA USA

posted 19 August 2002 09:59 AM     profile     
quote:
How would we name a chord that happened to use the 6th from the minor scale? Is it just called an augmented fifth?
No, I don't think that would be an augmented 5th, because when you say augmented 5th, it implies that you don't play the perfect 5th at the same time. A sixth chord uses both the 5th and 6th tomes together.
Calling it a flatted 13th wouldn't be much better, because most players would not play the 5th in a 13th chord either.
The best way to get someone to play a particular voicing is to write the notes!
But here is another way. Suppose you want this voicing: 

F
E
C
A

You could call it Fmaj7/A.

[This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 19 August 2002 at 10:01 AM.]

Jerry Overstreet
Member

From: Louisville Ky

posted 19 August 2002 04:38 PM     profile     
Hey Greg...how about an example in frets and pedals so some of us not so theory oriented pickers can hear what this chord sounds like on pedal steel if you could. Thanx.


Dave Birkett
Member

From: Oxnard, CA, USA

posted 19 August 2002 11:21 PM     profile     
Pedal 6 and strings 7,6,5 and 4 on the C6 neck gives you a non-inverted minor 6th chord.
Ricky Davis
Moderator

From: Spring, Texas USA

posted 20 August 2002 07:42 AM     profile     
On the C6th neck.....strings 2;3;4 with 6th and 7th pedal open fret....gives you a Dm6....kinda the same idea as the E9th neck using pedals B&C two frets back from no-pedal major chord postition is it's Minor chord with these pedal combinations; but the inversion of 6th and 7th pedal is the minor6 chord.
Ricky

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 20 August 2002 at 07:45 AM.]

Greg Vincent
Member

From: Los Angeles, CA USA

posted 20 August 2002 08:01 AM     profile     
Jerry,

A nice, non-inverted minor sixth on the E9 neck is found two frets below the open major chord position (like Ricky mentioned) on strings 7,6,5,4 but instead of B & C pedals, use A & B and the lever lowering your E's.

So try this in the key of A: Fret 5 strings 6,5,4, then fret five same strings plus A & B pedals, then fret 8 strings 7,6,5,4 with A & B pedals and E's lowering lever, then fret five strings 5,4,3.

That's a nice ending that goes I - IV - IVm6 - I

I ran into this progression watching the TV the other day and had to figure it out. Turns out the chord I was hearing is called a minor sixth!

Thanks everone for your input on this one.

-GV

John Steele
Member

From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

posted 20 August 2002 11:23 AM     profile     
There was a song on the charts a short time ago by a lady singer I can't name. It was called "There is no Arizona" or perhaps just "Arizona". Anyway, it's dripping with minor 6 chords (as I chords, perhaps the creepiest sounding minor chords around).
-John
Dave Birkett
Member

From: Oxnard, CA, USA

posted 21 August 2002 01:00 AM     profile     
John, what do you play for the first chord of "Round Midnight" or "My Funny Valentine"? And while I've got your attention, when I listen to jazz pianists play a minor tonic chord, it sounds to me like they play a minor with the 6th, 9th and 11th, especially when they don't want to play a major or minor 7th and foreshadow the upcoming progression. Am I wrong? They've got the luxury of being able to play so many notes. Thanks.

[This message was edited by Dave Birkett on 21 August 2002 at 01:09 AM.]

[This message was edited by Dave Birkett on 21 August 2002 at 01:11 AM.]

John Steele
Member

From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

posted 21 August 2002 09:48 AM     profile     
Hi Dave,
'Round Midnight is written in 5 flats.
That's Gb, or Ebm, depending on your perspective. The first chord is Ebm. Most people I've heard play the Ebm in it's pure form, and then move through EbmMaj7, Ebm7, Ebm6 (It's chromatic, just the root note keeps dropping) over the first two bars.
Last week we had a discussion in here (jazz notation thread) about the lamentable fact that C, C6, CMaj7, CMaj9 were all basically the same chord, or at least all of the same tonality (and are derived from the same scale). The same applies to these minor chords. If a jazz pianist saw Ebm, they likely wouldn't hesitate to embellish it and play it as Ebm7, or Ebm9, or Ebm11, or even Ebm13 (which includes the same tone as the m6). Now, in the case of 'Round Midnight, it's become the accepted norm to play through those chords I mentioned, through the first two measures (Even though the chart may call for simply a Ebm).
Minor 6th chords have to be treated with care though. In our 'round midnight example, it's one of several passing chords, so it works. It also works as a I chord if you're prepared for the creepiness of the sound (Is that a word ?) Depending on your taste, it doesn't work as well as a VI chord or a II chord.
In the jazz world, Ebm7 is derived from the Db major scale, unlike EbmMaj7, which is derived from the Eb melodic minor scale. (very similar except for that 7th tone)
-John
Earnest Bovine
Member

From: Los Angeles CA USA

posted 21 August 2002 10:05 AM     profile     
quote:
'Round Midnight is written in 5 flats.
Round Midnight, and E flat minor, are usually written with six flats in the key signature.

quote:
Ebm in it's pure form, and then move through EbmMaj7, Ebm7, Ebm6 (It's chromatic, just the root note keeps dropping) over the first two bars.
I think you mean the first one bar, with one beat for each chord. The changes in the second bar are II7 to V7. In E flat minor, that means Fm7b5 to Bb7 or Bb7 alt.
Actually, the chromatically descending bass line that you refer to is not in the head of Round Midnight. The first bar is usually played as Ebm to Cm7-5. So the first two bars are I VI II V, in other words the familiar ice cream changes in a minor key.
John Steele
Member

From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

posted 21 August 2002 11:03 AM     profile     
Whoops ! Earnest is again correct. The chromatic thingie (if you choose to use it)all takes place within the first bar, and it is indeed 6 flats. Thanks Earnest !
-John
p.s. furnished or unfurnished ?

[This message was edited by John Steele on 21 August 2002 at 11:11 AM.]

Dave Birkett
Member

From: Oxnard, CA, USA

posted 21 August 2002 12:28 PM     profile     
Thanks John and Earnest. The reason I suggested the minor with the 6th (or 13th) and the 9th and 11th, and no 7th at all is that I hear a chord for My Funny Valentine that has an altered sound but doesn't "give away" the soon-to-follow progression. I know that Miles avoided this problem by starting on cm7 and substituting ab7/g7 for the usual cm maj7 and then going back to cm7(pretty clever!). I've got a recording of Monk playing Midnight on solo piano. I'm going to pull it out and try to learn what his first chord is.
Dave Birkett
Member

From: Oxnard, CA, USA

posted 21 August 2002 01:54 PM     profile     
I found the disc and listened to it. For the first two beats, before the melody starts, Monk plays only an Eb note, not even a chord. As the melody starts (the Bb), he plays a D and progresses down as John described. It's amazing he gets such a haunting and jazzy sound with such simple chords. Of course, preceding this, he's played more or less Dizzy's intro of very altered chords.

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