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 El Paso guitar (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: El Paso guitar |
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Bill Cutright Member From: Akron, OH |
posted 06 January 2004 05:41 AM
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Does anyone know (for sure) the make or model guitar Grady used on this? It sounds like a nylon string played with a pick. I couldn't find any specifics thru google. Thanks |
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Al Johnson Member From: Sturgeon Bay, WI USA |
posted 06 January 2004 08:56 AM
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only thing I remember off the top of my head--the guitar was an Epiphone flattop. Might have belonged to Marty Robbins. He was great guitar and fiddle player. Al |
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Alvin Blaine Member From: Sandy Valley, Nevada, USA |
posted 06 January 2004 09:34 AM
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From what I read and the pictures I've seen it was a STEEL string Gretsch. I don't know what model it was. |
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Bill Hatcher Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA |
posted 06 January 2004 01:25 PM
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I vote for some kind of small archtop acoustic. Would not be surprised if it were a Martin archtop. |
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Gene Jones Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA |
posted 06 January 2004 01:32 PM
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On the shows that I worked with Marty, he played that little bitty guitar tucked under his arm......I do know that he played a mighty piano! www.genejones.com |
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Steve Hinson Member From: Hendersonville Tn USA |
posted 07 January 2004 03:11 AM
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I heard it was a Gretsch Synchromatic(an archtop F-hole with steel strings and no cutaways)... |
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Alvin Blaine Member From: Sandy Valley, Nevada, USA |
posted 07 January 2004 12:57 PM
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quote: Thats the one! I had a picture of him playing it somewhere, but now I can't find it. |
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Roy Ayres Member From: Starke, Florida, USA |
posted 07 January 2004 01:31 PM
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Picture -- Gretsch El Paso -- Gut (Nylon) string |
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Alvin Blaine Member From: Sandy Valley, Nevada, USA |
posted 07 January 2004 05:34 PM
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quote: The Marty Robbins album "Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs" has Thomas Grady Martin playing a STEEL STRING acoustic guitar. There is NO gut/nylon sting guitar on that album. |
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Roy Ayres Member From: Starke, Florida, USA |
posted 07 January 2004 06:54 PM
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The following was copied from a posting by Eddie Sulik, Jr. on the internet site for the Grady Martin Fan Club. (Track it down via Google.) So far, it is the closest thing I have ever found to a quotation from someone who reportedly was there when "El Paso" happened. I can't attest to the accuracy of the post, I am only passing on what I have found. ********************************************* Posted December 10, 2001 On November 2, 1959: My (late) father, Eddie Sulik, was sent to Nashville by A&R man, Don Law, to cut four sides for Columbia Records, as the lead singer and songwriter of a RAB/Pop duo named 'the Echoes'. When my dad arrived at Bradley Studio, Law introduced him to the musicians that were to back his session. My Dad later admitted to my mother that he was a little bit star-struck when he learned that both, Grady Martin and Hank Garland would play on the set, (along with Buddy Harman and the Anita Kerr Singers). My father was well aware of who Grady Martin was, but did not realize how many sessions this genius actually played on. In front of Grady, whom co-produced the set, Law requested from one of the engineers, that he play back a master from a session that they had recently recorded. It was Marty Robbins' 'Elpaso'. Law asked my father to listen closely to the guitar playing; then, asked who he thought was doing the picking. My father shrugged his shoulders and asked if it were Marty Robbins. Both Don Law and Grady chuckled for a moment, as Law responded, "No, that there is Grady playing that nylon string guitar. These guys are the 'Hit makers', and we're all here today to make a Hit record." Magic was definitely made in Bradley Studio on that day, thanks to the help of Grady Martin and the rest of 'Nashville's A-Team'. As far as the records went; well, regionally, they did okay, but amidst the Payola probe that was going on at the time, they didn't get the air-play that they probably deserved; the label then dropped promotion, the Echoes split, and my father returned to a solo career until his death in an auto accident, five years later. I'm writing this on the evening of December, 9th. I just read about Grady's death from this web page. Ironically, today is the 36th anniversary of my father's death. They would have been about the same age. I wonder if they're doing an encore performance of "Loving and Losing", one of the songs that they did together, in which Grady's guitar sound like it was actually crying. Grady, this one's for you... (My tribute to Grady Martin: First verse to "Loving and Losing")... You told me goodbye yesterday, and then we parted. They tell me that I shouldn't stay so broken hearted; but I can't seem to drive you from my mind, so I'll just go on my lonely way, Loving and Losing all the time. To hear the complete song, 'click' on the following link, (and tell me, you can't hear Grady's guitar crying tears through that vintage Echoplex)... http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/1225/1225197.html Thanks Grady for all of the great music and for touching my life, and the lives of so many. Like the song says; "If there's a rock-n-roll heaven, they must have one hell of a band." Eddie Sulik Jr. |
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Tom Olson Member From: Spokane, WA |
posted 07 January 2004 07:07 PM
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I'm not saying it's not a steel string, but it sure sounds like a nylon string. |
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Gregg Galbraith Member From: Goodlettsville,Tn.,USA |
posted 09 January 2004 12:40 AM
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I cast my vote in the "steel-string" column.I think one of the first hits that Grady played gut-string on was "Devil Woman", which was a couple years after the first "Gunfighter" project,and I'm pretty sure that I recall Harold Bradley's telling me that Grady purchased his gut-string guitar in Spain..from the builder himself.For years people have equated Grady's work on "El Paso" with gut-string, and I feel that it's become an "urban myth." Grady DID play gut-string on his own instrumental version of the song, and if you A/B the two versions, you can really tell the difference in 4 major elements: attack,tone,response, and sustain. |
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Nate LaPointe Member From: Los Angeles, California, USA |
posted 09 January 2004 01:34 PM
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I just listened to El Paso again after reading this topic and it sure sounds like a steel to me. Listen to the "Out throught the back door of Rose's I ran..." section. Right after they sing "out where the horses were tied" he bends the 2nd string in a manner that is not possible on a nylor or gut stringed instrument. |
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Tom Olson Member From: Spokane, WA |
posted 09 January 2004 07:03 PM
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I just followed Roy Ayres' advice and used google to do a search for Grady Martin. One of the things I found was a site called "Rockabilly Hall of Fame" www.rockabillyhall.com Here's a portion of text about Grady Martin copied directly from that site: Martin's role as studio guitarist yielded numerous memorable moments. It was he who played the throbbing leads on Johnny Horton's 1956 hit "Honky Tonk Man," the exquisite nylon string guitar on Marty Robbins's 1959 crossover smash "El Paso," and Lefty Frizzell's 1964 "Saginaw Michigan." One of the most famous sessions was an accidental malfunction in mid-take when Grady played the distorted "fuzz" guitar solo on Robbins's 1960 hit "Don't Worry." Though studio musicians in those days rarely received credit for their work, Martin's efforts didn't go unnoticed. Producers often designated him "session leader," which meant he led the musicians and directed the impromptu arrangements that became a landmark of Nashville sessions. In other words, he often became the de-facto producer in the process. [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 09 January 2004 at 07:03 PM.] |
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Tom Olson Member From: Spokane, WA |
posted 09 January 2004 07:25 PM
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Here's another section of text pulled from an article about Grady Martin in the "Tennessean" Mr. Martin's delicate, nylon-string guitar graces Marty Robbins' El Paso, and his thrusting, fuzz-toned guitar solo churns through Robbins' Don't Worry (the latter probably was the first of its kind, influencing generations of distortion-happy guitarists). His fiery rockabilly solos helped bring Johnny Horton songs, including Honky Tonk Man and Cherokee Boogie, into popular favor. And his melodic leads may be heard on recordings by Nelson, Cline, Orbison, Baez, Jim Reeves, Carl Smith, Elvis Presley, Loretta Lynn, Brenda Lee and numerous others. |
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Tom Olson Member From: Spokane, WA |
posted 09 January 2004 07:29 PM
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Here's another excerpt from a Grady Martin biography on www.countryworks.com: He also appeared on Johnny Horton’s Honky Tonk Man and Ronnie Self’s Big Fool, also in 1956. In 1959, Grady played on one of his finest sessions, when he assisted on Marty Robbins’ record, El Paso, playing nylon string guitar. |
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Alvin Blaine Member From: Sandy Valley, Nevada, USA |
posted 09 January 2004 07:59 PM
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I just listened to the whole "Gunfighter Ballads" CD. Grady Martin could have been playing a nylon string guitar on it, the only thing is someone put an archtop and steel strings on his Ramirez for the day of April 7th 1959. I really think that this was the genius of Grady Martin, that he could play some "Spanish" sounding licks on a archtop steel string and the 45 years later people are asking "what kind of nylon string guitar was that?". |
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Roy Ayres Member From: Starke, Florida, USA |
posted 09 January 2004 08:17 PM
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So, I repeat: Picture -- Gretsch |
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Bill Hatcher Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA |
posted 09 January 2004 09:30 PM
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Nylon--no way. The sound on El Paso is not a nylon guitar to my ear. Even the descriptions in articles about him are more likely the default setting of writers who just assume that this is a nylon guitar on this tune. That is part of the wonder of what he did. The fact that what he is playing has the feel and phrasing of the nylon but has too much steel string in the sound to be one. My vote is still for steel string. |
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Tom Olson Member From: Spokane, WA |
posted 10 January 2004 08:07 AM
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If the guitar on Willie Nelson's "On the Road Again" sounds like a nylon-string, then the one on "El Paso" is a nylon-string -- same guitar, same guitar player. |
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Gregg Galbraith Member From: Goodlettsville,Tn.,USA |
posted 10 January 2004 09:32 AM
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I just phoned Harold Bradley in hopes of getting a definitive answer to this question.What Harold told me makes Grady's work on "El Paso" even MORE amazing. It wasn't even HIS guitar, but a (steel-string) that he borrowed from Jim Glaser, who was singing back-up with his brothers on the session. |
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Steve Hinson Member From: Hendersonville Tn USA |
posted 10 January 2004 09:41 PM
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I love this town... |
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Bill Cutright Member From: Akron, OH |
posted 10 January 2004 11:10 PM
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Thanks for the detective work (GG) - This is cool. Definitely steel on ElPaso (but that may be Willies' pre-hole-in-it on Devil Woman) |
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basilh Member From: United Kingdom |
posted 11 January 2004 04:59 AM
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It sounds to me like nylon strings played with a pick. Baz |
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Tom Olson Member From: Spokane, WA |
posted 11 January 2004 08:35 AM
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Baz -- right on.  |
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Theresa Galbraith Member From: Goodlettsville,Tn. USA |
posted 11 January 2004 03:22 PM
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Donny Hinson Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. |
posted 11 January 2004 06:49 PM
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I'll go with steel strings. The attack just seems too sharp, and the sustain too long for a nylon-string classical job. While I'm here, though, I hafta say I do find it amusing that we steelers (who say we can tell a "wrap" from a bolt on, a solid state amp from a tube job, a GL710 from an E66, and a stainless bar from a chrome one), have trouble determining whether it's steel strings, or nylon on that cut! Don'cha jus' think that's a hoot? |
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John Floyd Member From: Somewhere between Camden County , NC and Saluda S.C. |
posted 11 January 2004 07:23 PM
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quote: Duh? If Harold Bradley Said it And Gregg Sez it, Should be the end of it. |
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Steve Hinson Member From: Hendersonville Tn USA |
posted 11 January 2004 08:04 PM
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...that's right... |
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Tom Olson Member From: Spokane, WA |
posted 11 January 2004 09:55 PM
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At the risk of sounding ignorant -- who is Harold Bradley? |
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John Floyd Member From: Somewhere between Camden County , NC and Saluda S.C. |
posted 11 January 2004 10:05 PM
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One Of the top Session Guitarists that ever worked in Nashville, right up there in the same league with Grady Martin, Hank Garland and I believe, Brother of Owen Bradley, Legendary Record Producer. [This message was edited by John Floyd on 11 January 2004 at 10:12 PM.] |
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Jussi Huhtakangas Member From: Helsinki, Finland |
posted 11 January 2004 10:54 PM
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And on top of that, Harold Bradley is only among the top three of the most recorded guitar players in the history of recording industry ( could even be the # 1 ). |
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Alvin Blaine Member From: Sandy Valley, Nevada, USA |
posted 11 January 2004 11:40 PM
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And the song in question was recorded at Bradley Film & Recording. |
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Roy Ayres Member From: Starke, Florida, USA |
posted 12 January 2004 05:38 AM
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Whein I was on the GOO in the 40's, Harold was in college (at Juliard, I think) majoring on upright bass. When we played on stage, Redd Stewart doubled on fiddle and lead guitar. When we did recording sessions, Harold played the parts Redd normally played so that the guitar would sound the same on stage as it did on our records. Redd would show Harold a lick he usually used on stage one time and Harold would have it down pat the first time around -- regardless of how complex the lick might be. Amazing guitarist, that Harold. |
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Tom Olson Member From: Spokane, WA |
posted 12 January 2004 08:20 AM
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AAAAAA --- some old guitar player? -- what does HE know? He probably made the whole thing up 'cause he couldn't remember anything. I still say it's a nylon string guitar! [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 12 January 2004 at 08:21 AM.] |
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Gregg Galbraith Member From: Goodlettsville,Tn.,USA |
posted 13 January 2004 05:13 PM
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For anyone who still has an interest in this matter,I have an update.I phoned Jim Glaser yesterday, and he corrected me on a couple points. It was not the Glaser Bros. who sang harmony on "El Paso." It was Jim Glaser and Bobby Sykes.And the guitar in question didn't belong to Jim, but was a steel-string arch-top that Marty kept at his office for his song writers to use. Jim said that it had the biggest neck and the worst action of any guitar that he'd ever played, but that Marty really liked the sound of it and asked Grady to use it on the session.Jim recalls that Grady put a new set of strings on it just before the session and that they were steel. He can't remember what brand the guitar was, but he thinks it might have been a Silvertone,although he couldn't say for sure that it wasn't the Gretch model that Steve Hinson referred to.Jim said that Grady used the guitar on the entire first "Gunfighter" album, and possibly part of the second. Jim also told me that the final version of "El Paso" was just the 4th take, and that 2 of those were "false starts." I know I'm beatin' a dead horse here, but each new discovery only increases my admiration for Grady Martin. |
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Steve Hinson Member From: Hendersonville Tn USA |
posted 13 January 2004 08:43 PM
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Thanks for the update,Gregg...I'm a big Grady fan too... |
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John Floyd Member From: Somewhere between Camden County , NC and Saluda S.C. |
posted 14 January 2004 08:36 AM
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quote: Tom I saw your Smiley Face and see where you are just having some fun out of this, so am I [This message was edited by John Floyd on 14 January 2004 at 05:55 PM.] |
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Tom Olson Member From: Spokane, WA |
posted 14 January 2004 04:44 PM
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John, how many recording sessions do you suppose were performed at Mr. Bradley's studio? I'm not looking for an exact number -- just take a guess. |
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John Floyd Member From: Somewhere between Camden County , NC and Saluda S.C. |
posted 14 January 2004 05:53 PM
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I would leave that to Gregg, he would know better, but probably Thousands of them in the 70's alone. Owen Bradley was a legend as a record Producer. Loretta Lynn recorded there, Curley Chalker recorded several Steel Albums there. I thought Everybody had heard of Bradleys Barn. Just pick up an album or two from the 70's and you should see Owen Bradley, Harold Bradley or Bradleys Barn listed on there. |
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