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 Buzz Feiten Tuning System
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| Author | Topic: Buzz Feiten Tuning System |
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Bill Miller Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada |
posted 24 November 2004 01:30 PM
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Does anyone here have experience with this system? I hadn't even heard of it until yesterday but it seems very interesting. I contacted the company already to inquire if it could be done to my Fender Strat which has a Wilkinson Roller nut instead of a traditional bone nut. Apparently it can. Their website lists scores of well known pickers who are using the system ( Brent Rowan for one) and I'd be interested to hear of forumites who've had guitars retrofitted with it. Imperfect intonation has always been a burr under my saddle. My present Strat is better than in that regard than any other electric I've ever owned but despite adjusting the intonation as best as possible it just isn't sweet in all positions. The Buzz Feiten system claims to correct that. If it really is as good as they claim it woud be worth the money to me. If you haven't heard of it here is a link: http://www.buzzfeiten.com/ [This message was edited by Bill Miller on 24 November 2004 at 01:31 PM.] |
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Bobby Lee Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA |
posted 24 November 2004 02:36 PM
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quote:A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  |
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Eric West Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA |
posted 24 November 2004 08:11 PM
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A lot can be catastrophic.. HT. EJL |
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Bill Miller Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada |
posted 25 November 2004 04:49 AM
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Doesn't seem to be too much 'buzz' about the Buzz Feiten system around here. That raises a number of possibilities. Maybe most people are happy enough with the traditional system. Or could it be the that any improvement to be had is too subtle to be worth the fuss? And then there's a chance it might all be hype. There's one thing though; if they've paid endorsement fees to all of the guitarists listed on their website they must have a lot of revenue to throw around. I'm still very curious about this whole business. [This message was edited by Bill Miller on 25 November 2004 at 04:51 AM.] |
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Pookie Anselmi Member From: Galliano, Louisiana, USA |
posted 25 November 2004 05:00 AM
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I'm not certain but I think the Washburn guitar line incorporates this system into their guitars. |
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Bill Miller Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada |
posted 25 November 2004 05:23 AM
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Yes, Washburn has adopted the system for all of their USA made guitars. Peterson Tuners seems to be partnered with them to some degree as well. That's where I came across it....I was doing a little research, looking through the online owners manual for the Peterson VS-II Virtual Strobe tuner and noticed there is a built in preset for the Buzz Feiten tuning system as well as a link to their website. [This message was edited by Bill Miller on 25 November 2004 at 05:24 AM.] |
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Tony Prior Member From: Charlotte NC |
posted 25 November 2004 06:24 AM
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Well I'm not familiar with the details of this system but Buzz has been a favorite player of mine for years.. check out the old Larson/Feiton band releases from the 80's..great stuff And I think he was in tune ! t [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 28 November 2004 at 01:45 AM.] |
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Lincoln Goertzen Member From: Rose Prairie, British Columbia, Canada |
posted 25 November 2004 08:27 AM
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Yes, I have this system on my Canadian-made Garrison acoustic guitar. I am very happy with it. I notice the difference mostly in the mid- to upper-fret ranges (ie. 6th fret and beyond.) I don't know if I could say, "I wouldn't be without it," but I do notice that my Garrison is more in tune than my other acoustics. I don't know if it would make an appreciable difference on electric, because it is already possible to adjust the intonation via the individual saddles. Lincoln |
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Dave Boothroyd Member From: The Malvern Hills |
posted 25 November 2004 08:39 AM
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Well if I look across at the six guitars in this room, only one has not got a Zero fret, and that's my steel ('48 National 8 Console), so the intonation-adjusted bone nut is not of much relevance to me personally. ------------------ |
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Bill Miller Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada |
posted 25 November 2004 12:37 PM
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Lincoln, from what I can gather from their info the system can't be incorporated by intonation adjustments at the saddle alone. It also involves repositioning the nut according to a patented formula based on scale length, fret width etc. So I think electrics benefit as much as acoustics. Dave, guitars with zero frets aren't excluded either. The retrofit involves repositioning the zero fret it seems. |
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Jim Phelps Member From: just out of Mexico City |
posted 25 November 2004 12:45 PM
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I have a Washburn J-9 with the Buzz Feiten fret system on it. To be honest, I'm not impressed, despite having read many glowing reports about it. I bought this guitar from Will Ray of the Hellecasters, and it's a nice guitar, but it seems to have more tuning/intonation problems than any guitar I've ever owned. Yes, I know how to set the intonation at the bridge, been doing setup work for more than 30 years. Maybe this guitar's just not quite right, or requires (I doubt it) that the bridge pieces be set differently than as with a normal non-BF guitar? Granted, the "problems" with it are very slight, but I expected it to be better with this system. I think my '72 Tele with the old 3 bridge pieces plays more in tune, or at least as well. I've never had tuning or intonation problems. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 25 November 2004 at 12:49 PM.] |
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Bill Miller Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada |
posted 25 November 2004 01:41 PM
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Jim says: " Maybe this guitar's just not quite right, or requires (I doubt it) that the bridge pieces be set differently than as with a normal non-BF guitar? " Well Jim, you probably know a lot more about this than I do but reading over the info on their website and also from a bit of info they emailed me I understood that once the system is installed on a guitar the bridge pieces DO have to be adjusted differently. It sounds like part of the system is the new or repositioned nut, and the other part of the system is a corresponding formula for adjusting the saddles specific to your particular guitar. Once the nut has been repositioned the scale length has been slightly altered so I think that's why the intonation has to set a certain way. Maybe you could get in touch with them...their website has a list of all of their trained retrofitters. I'd sure like to hear the outcome if you do that. [This message was edited by Bill Miller on 25 November 2004 at 02:18 PM.] |
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Jim Phelps Member From: just out of Mexico City |
posted 25 November 2004 04:22 PM
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Thanks Bill, but if I'm right, your info applies to adding the Feiten system to a guitar that originally came without it, right? My Washburn J-9 I spoke of came with the system factory standard...so seems like that wouldn't apply........? Odd too, since they say the Feiten system comes on U.S. built Washburns, and all the J-9s are Korean, but this has the Buzz Feiten system logo and patent stuff on the back of the peghead under the clear finish coat so I know it's factory. Maybe it was an option. Could be that the BF system still requires the bridge pieces set differently than "normal"....I should read up on it....when I have the time!  I quit doing setups except for myself, before the Feiten system came out, so admittedly have no practical experience or much knowledge about it, except having read how it supposedly works.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 25 November 2004 at 04:32 PM.] |
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David Mason Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA |
posted 26 November 2004 03:00 AM
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There's a poor man's version available called the "Earvana" compensated nut. http://www.earvana.com/how.html Obviously, everybody is trying to make money.... What strikes me is that as soon as you play a barre chord (or use a capo), aren't you back to square one? |
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Bill Miller Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada |
posted 26 November 2004 04:41 AM
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Jim, what I mean to say is that if your guitar has the Buzz Feiten System it means that the traditional way of setting intonation at the saddles no longer applies. The system requires that certain new offsets are used which you'd have to know. So if it wasn't correctly adjusted when new or you or someone else changed the settings at the saddles at some point that might account for the problem. At least that's what I'm getting from their info. Also, they say that the use of a capo or bar chords does not negate the benefit of the system. They go into considerable detail about why on the website. [This message was edited by Bill Miller on 26 November 2004 at 05:00 AM.] |
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Lincoln Goertzen Member From: Rose Prairie, British Columbia, Canada |
posted 26 November 2004 11:03 AM
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Bill: I stand corrected. Yes, it does have to do with repositioning the nut also. What I meant in my post was this: To me, the primary difference in the system is the more complicated bridge saddle. Because the electric guitar already has an adjustable bridge, there would only be a slight difference in the nut positioning. In addition, I haven't played many electric guitars (other than super cheap ones) that had intonation problems. They were all correctable via the bridge. Just my two cents. Lincoln |
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Michael Johnstone Member From: Sylmar,Ca. USA |
posted 26 November 2004 11:39 AM
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I considered having my G&L ASAT modified with the BF system but decided it was too invasive so I settled on having an Earvana nut put on and it does make quite a difference - especially in the high registers. It didn't sound right at first and it actually took about a week of playing before I got accustomed to hearing things so in tune.I know that at first consideration it would seem that as soon as you put down a barre chard or a capo it would negate the effect - but to think that is to fail to grasp the physics in play. -MJ- |
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Stephen Gambrell Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA |
posted 26 November 2004 01:32 PM
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David, I remember back in the 80's, Stelling banjos had a compensated nut, dug out for the 2nd(I believe)string. And of course, the "compensated" effect went away when you put your cheater on! Same as the brass nuts everyone was touting for electric guitars back then. the fret becomes the nut, and the nut is merely a string guide at that point. I've never played a guitar with the Feiten setup on it, but friends who have say that the guitar needs re-tuning for every key. AGAIN, I haven't tried it, but it's what I've been told, by guitsrists whose cases I can't carry! |
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Jim Phelps Member From: just out of Mexico City |
posted 26 November 2004 05:45 PM
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Bill, I appreciate your trying to help, but I think you and I are getting two different things from what your info said...to me, the info is clearly referring to a standard guitar that has had the system added to it, and not one factory-built with the system included...this doesn't necessarily mean that the bridge pieces don't need to be setup differently no matter if the guitar came with the Feiten system or had it added later... but I think that "Once the nut has been repositioned the scale length has been slightly altered" really seems to refer to a change from a guitar without the Feiten system, to the changes after adding the system. It seems logical to me that a guitar built with the Feiten system would not have any repositioning, having been built with and for the Feiten system, and the fingerboard, nut and bridge would have already been built in the proper placement for the system....but then, what do I know. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 26 November 2004 at 05:51 PM.] |
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Bill Miller Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada |
posted 27 November 2004 08:15 AM
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Yes Jim, that makes sense alright. The whole thing is a bit complicated. I have some other thoughts about it but I don't want to belabor it further here. I'd email but your email isn't listed. |
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Dan Sawyer Member From: Studio City, California, USA |
posted 27 November 2004 04:21 PM
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I have the system on two guitars, a '78 Fender Strat (non-trem) and a '69 Martin D-21. As Mike Johnstone says, it takes a while to get used to the sound. Sometimes i still "hear" things the old way and want to change the tuning. The biggest difference is in playing triads on the thinner strings and up the neck. It also makes a difference when you are playing on a track with synth/ midi parts. You will sound more in tune and blend better. By the way, this is NOT a just intonation (JI) system, but simply a more accurate equal intonation. Jim Phelps, the tuning offsets are following. Note that the open notes are tuned different than at the 12th fret. This is why Korg and Peterson make special tuners for the system. E or 1st=0 cents, 12th fret octave=0 cents. B or 2nd=+1 cent, octave=0 cents. G or 3rd=-2 cents, octave=+1 cent. D or 4th=-2 cents, octave=+1 cent. A or 5th=-2 cents, octave=0. E or 6th=-2, octave=0. [This message was edited by Dan Sawyer on 27 November 2004 at 04:22 PM.] |
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Jerry Hayes Member From: Virginia Beach, Va. |
posted 30 November 2004 10:06 AM
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I guess I'm just to old to grasp why you'd need another way of tuning. Myself and all my old guitar heroes such as Chet Atkins, Merle Travis, Jimmy Bryant, Joe Maphis, and some of the newer ones such as Brent Mason, Albert Lee, James Burton, etc. don't need anything like this and all of their recordings sound in tune to me. I do all the set ups on all my guitars and they sound right in tune to my old ears so I guess I'll just stay with the "old way"....Have a good 'un, JH ------------------ |
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Greg Vincent Member From: Los Angeles, CA USA |
posted 30 November 2004 11:34 AM
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The paragraph quoted by b0b makes me very suspicious. It seems like the author is somewhat confused about the concept and evolution of temperament. What does a piano's stretched tuning have to do with how the intervals within an octave are tempered??? They are seperate issues. If the BF tuning system is not getting the guitar closer to JI, what does it do? Is it trying to chase the stretched tuning of a piano??? If so... no thanks! -GV |
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Dan Sawyer Member From: Studio City, California, USA |
posted 30 November 2004 01:52 PM
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Greg and Jerry, Feiten system is not actually new idea. Back in the 1960s there was a company called Microfrets. They built guitars with an adjustable nut which allowed for the same thing. If you compare a keyboard tuned ET and a regular guitar like a Strat tuned straight up with a tuner, the keyboard's thirds are actually more in tune. (hard to believe, i know.) Anyway, the Feiten system is designed to make the guitar closer to ET. Here's the background behind it. A guitar's frets can be cut with absolute accuracy and the bridges intonated with absolute perfection, yet there is still one more factor. When a note is fretted, the string is actually stretched slightly from it's normal position to down on the fretboard. This makes the string go slightly sharp, of course. Feiten system compensates for that. |
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Greg Vincent Member From: Los Angeles, CA USA |
posted 30 November 2004 02:03 PM
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Dan writes, quote: My understanding is that an adjustable bridge already compensated for this phenomenon. That's what setting a guitar's intonation is all about! I don't see anything new in what you describe, Dan. -GV [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 30 November 2004 at 02:04 PM.] [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 30 November 2004 at 02:06 PM.] |
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ajm Member From: Los Angeles |
posted 30 November 2004 06:35 PM
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"My understanding is that an adjustable bridge already compensated for this phenomenon." Apparently it doesn't (at least to some people). My understanding is that the system compensates for the extra pressure that it takes to push a string down at the first fret as opposed to a higher fret. I get the impression that the fret positions relative to each other don't change, but that the nut is moved a couple of millimeters closer to the bridge. Greg, I see that you are in LA. Mesa Boogie Hollywood has Tom Anderson guitars that have this system. I tried a couple there one time and did notice a difference in the "playing in tune" department. You can go try a couple and report back to us. I know if I won the lottery tomorrow I'd buy a TA. I think that anyone in the audience, even other musicians, isn't likely to notice a difference over the roar of a band in a bar. However, the guy playing the guitar may notice a slight difference. On the other hand, I also agree with the other post about how our heroes seem to have gotten along just fine without it. If Buck, Chet, Jimi, etc. survived without it then we should be able to also. If you haven't got a good song, then playing in tune won't help anyway. ------------------ |
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Greg Vincent Member From: Los Angeles, CA USA |
posted 01 December 2004 07:51 AM
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Yeah Artie I should go over to Boogie and try out one of those Tom Andersons. I'm not disputing that the BF tuning systems works, I've just never heard a good explanation of how it works. Maybe they need to keep it a trade secret, I dunno. I do know that the misinformation generated by their site is worrisome to me. A piano's stretched tuning and the octave's temperament are separate issues. Even if you tuned a piano in un-tempered JI for the key of C, you would still need to stretch the upper and lower octaves for the thing to sound in tune with itself due to the way those big piano strings vibrate and create overtones. [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 01 December 2004 at 07:52 AM.] [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 01 December 2004 at 07:54 AM.] |
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Earnest Bovine Member From: Los Angeles CA USA |
posted 01 December 2004 08:20 AM
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quote:Correct. quote: Not correct actually. In fact there is more inharmonicity on a short string (guitar) than on a long string (piano). That is why people spend the big bucks to get a 9 foot long piano, instead of a cheap little spinet where the bass strings have so much inharmonicity that you can't even identify the notes by ear. The main reason that stretch tuning is used more on a piano than on a (steel) guitar is that the range of the piano is so much greater. You don't need nearly so much stretching over the 1.5 octave (E9) or 2.5 octave (C6) range of a steel guitar. And of course if you use harmonics to tune the octave intervals on the steel (i.e. 4th and 8th string on E9) then you are stretch tuning that octave. |
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Greg Vincent Member From: Los Angeles, CA USA |
posted 01 December 2004 09:09 AM
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Thanks EB. So the range of a piano creates more of a problem than the large string diameters. My point is that stretched tuning is a piano issue rather than a guitar issue. -GV [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 01 December 2004 at 09:16 AM.] [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 01 December 2004 at 09:21 AM.] [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 01 December 2004 at 09:23 AM.] [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 01 December 2004 at 09:34 AM.] |
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Thomas Bancroft Member From: Matawan, New Jersey, USA |
posted 01 December 2004 09:57 AM
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Most of the benefit of the BF or Earvana systems is evident in the first three frets when playing open chords. Check these notes with your meter. They are almost always way sharp and don't sound in tune with open strings. I have a new 62 RI Tele that is horrible in that respect. Shortening the length from the nut to the first fret makes the fretted notes less sharp all the way up the neck as fretting/pitch is about string length division rather than string length designation above the fret. I haven't installed my Earvana compensated nut on the Tele yet but I will in the near future. Earvana.com has a great explanation on their website as well as tech instructions on installation which are interesting. ------------------ |
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