Here's the problem...ASCAP is demanding royalty money from this restaurant owner for the live music and even the TVs that are playing in the sports bar area. This sounds wild! Do all pubs/resturant/club owners have to pay music royalities for the bands playing in their building???

Anyone know anything about ASCAP and their policies? Are bands at risk of being charged royalties for playing gigs?

Edit. This is a one time per year fee paid by the club owner NOT the band.

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 05 October 2005 at 08:47 PM.]

TV ? Never heard of that one...

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

I guess they hired a new dude that wants strut his stuff !!

Wanting Royalty monies on TV's in a bar ????
What kind of a fool is he ?

I'm sure it's their attitude that:
If you even own a guitar,Steel,Mike,or other musical device,(even in your own home) You should pay them money to play,listen, or use it.

It's the stupid crapp like that is why everyone should tell ASCAP,BMI,to stuff it !

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http://home.comcast.net/~crookwf/
http://photobucket.com/albums/v479/billcrook/

[This message was edited by Bill Crook on 06 October 2005 at 03:05 PM.]

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
;)

Songwriters DO get paid by these agencies, which are collecting "performance" royalties. There are other types of royalties such as "mechanical" (reproduction). And if anyone thinks songwriters are getting rich off these royalties, they're wrong. The only songwriters that are getting rich are the very lucky ones that have multiple MEGA hits, and I'm talking several weeks in the #1 spot.

I just can't fathom why people are so adamant about songwriters NOT getting paid. Now, maybe some snot nose, overzealous ASCAP folks has taken some draconian steps to collect, but the fees required bars and clubs are nominal at most. They're usually based on capacity, and for small clubs, I've never heard of a fee than was more than about $200 PER YEAR. If ASCAP/BMI/SECAC is wanting more money these days, please, correct me, I want to know.

These places NEED music; without it, they know they're dead in the water.

I don't care who flies where and has a great time on the collected fees (although I've never heard of this), I'm just happy that every three months I'm rewarded for my songwriting efforts by a nice cheque in the mail that allows me to feed my family and continue to be a full-time musician and songwriter. We lose enough in burned-off CDs and downloading; at least songwriters get some compensation.

If non-songwriting musicians take a negative attitude toward the collection of royalty fees, they will soon be seeing negative on their bank statements as well. Nowhere to play, no new songs, no new recordings, all-talk radio....you get the picture.

And it's that type of attitude that keeps artists from getting paid for their work.

Radio and television stations periodically submit playlists to ASCAP and/or BMI, and artists get reimbursed by ASCAP/BMI according to the playing frequency of their registered works. (The reimbursment amount varies between TV, AM, FM, etc. It's not a whole lot unless you have a nation wide hit.) These stations pay their annual fees to use composers' music. Fees from radio and tv alone would not be able to pay for the millions paid back in royalites each trimester. Therefore, each and every businessman who uses music to make money has to pay into ASCAP/BMI so that all registered artists get the amount they're owed.

Artists also submit their playlists to ASCAP/BMI from establishments in which they have performed. If the cover charge is over 6 bucks, then an artist can submit a playlist of registered works along with proof of the gig (newspaper listing/poster) and receive performance royalties. I have other artists performing my work in concert, and every so often I see a royalty on my statement for that.

All venues and businesses that use music have to pay, because it costs an enormous amount every three months to pay artists across the country what they're owed. A nightclub's annual fee usually adds up to the door take on a single Friday night of a full year....peanuts for a crowd who are accustomed to using musicians and paying them about 10% of what's actually coming in.

"ASCAP leaned on a seafood restauruant in Greenville (MS) that had live music one
nite a week for three hours only.
Several songwriters were using it as a venue to test new material, although
cover tunes were played in between unpublished songs. No musac-no t.v.-no
radio any other time. The ASCAP bill for 12 mo's was $900.00... no
negoitations and due now!
A court order was in his other hand.
Now there is no venue for undiscovered music here. The crowds fell to slim & slimmer.
nobody wins except the ASCAP rep who told the lady he would shut her down in
a heartbeat."

Knowing this area I have to say this was overkill. Maybe a different ASCAP Rep would seen it differently.

The bar owners demanded that the band (who, incidentally, were playing for tips) not play any covers. Problem was, they had already played their two original songs! I wasn't helping matters by suggesting they play only BMI songs (which they were considering....but who keeps a record of what's a BMI vs. ASCAP song).

In the end, someone called out that it was a guy in the audience's birthday, and the drunk guitar player busted into the Beatles' "Birthday" riff. Now, I dunno if that's an ASCAP song or not, but it was all the ASCAP guy needed to bust the bar and force them to pay. At least, that's how it was told to me (and if true, funny!).

2) BMI attempts to track precicsely what is played via direct reporting methods and eventually pays accordingly, generally a better setup for those who never have a "hit" but still receive some airplay, media sales or live covers. ASCAP, on the other hand, conducts various industry surveys and examines major network playlists to determine who gets paid using a sampling paradigm -- the little guys who never get their songs played on ClearChannel seldom if ever see a dime.

3) Songwriters deserve to get paid for the use of their creations. Club owners and musicians deserve to get paid for their hard work and investment. Crooks deserve to get thrown in jail. In a perfect world all of the above would take place all the time.

4) This ain't a perfect world. Yet. If you've got an idea as to how it can be made so then please go for it ASAP! Elsewise, just pay the man, hope for the best and keep on playing.

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 07 October 2005 at 09:55 PM.]

The bottom line here is that if you open an establishment, however small, you need to pay for the use of music. You of course do not have to pay ASCAP for music you play in a private place, like your bedroom or living room.....because no one is making money around it. Anyone who opens a club needs to know that there are costs associated with the use of music. If you feel you don't need music in your club to make money, then don't use it. I'm sick and tired of people wanting music for nothing, especially when they're making money by using it.

Do you think an electician or plumber would charge a small club less than a large club for the installation of toilets and outlets? It's all the same to them. You need toilets and electricity to run a club, just like you need music. And that also costs money. I'm so glad someone is looking out for the people who create these songs.

As far as ASCAP employees spending the collected fees on themselves, I'm with Mr. Grafe in the mindset that there are bad apples everywhere. Find the name of the guy and report him....that's what I would do.

[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 08 October 2005 at 10:02 AM.]

The BMI rep on the other hand was very friendly and helpful. I might say, at that time that more songwriters (of which I am also one and like to get paid too) were signed up with BMI than ASCAP.

Earlier in my career, I played a venue where I was told by the owner not to play ASCAP music. It didn't take much research to determine that only about 4 or 5 of the songs I was doing at that time were ASCAP songs so I complied. I thought it strange until my run in the the robber barrons.

Please remember that I am a weedend musician, a songwriter and was once a bar owner so I've been on all sides of the bar.

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EMCI D10 8/4 and Nashville 400

Brand new club, they came in and estimated capacity, etc., and presented him with a bill for $1895 for the year. He said no way, and it turned out part of what they were asking for was payment for the Football TV feed (?) which he pays through the feed service, and the jukebox, which also is paid through the fancy download service he uses.
So then it became $1600 for the year. After his refusal, $1325, $1100, and last bill has been for $625. He told me he told them he's not paying as he wants to know what their bottom line is- since they obviously don't know!

There's no doubt the idea of intellectual property requires payment so the songwriters actually see income from their work, and the performance rights societites are filling a needed gap. Hard on club owners, but they're making money from the performance of someone else's intellectual property.
But from stories here, it seems at least some ASCAP reps need to clean up their act...

Glad I got that cardiac surgeon career to fall back on...Spagetti-o's are a lot more expensive than they were in 1981

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 13 October 2005 at 07:35 AM.]

ASCAP used to bill us $50 for the four day event, which seemed reasonable and we always paid. This year they sent us a bill for over $900 for four days. Most of the members are pretty livid over this, and I seriously doubt that ASCAP is going to see any money from our Lions club this year.

Most of the $$$ brought in by the live music is through the beer garden, which usually clears somewhere in the neighborhood of 4K for the entire 4 days, and that's only because all of the labor is donated. ASCAPs take of the beer garden's profit would work out to be about 25%.

I suppose they could sue, but I don't think it would do much for their PR going after a charity for that much $$$ for a four day charitable event. If they really pushed the issue, they could probably force the Lions club to disband, again, not doing a whole lot for their PR.

Seems to me like they're just getting a might bit too greedy lately.

George

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Sho-Bud: Professional & Fingertip

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want drunk drivers on the road with me or my family. At one time in my life I was a policeman. We were taught the signs to look for when suspecting driving under the influence. We did not use the "shotgun" approach. When you stop everybody, then folks get afraid of going out for a good time for fear that they might get stopped, drinking or not people don't like being stopped by the police. Use of a designated driver helps and most clubs I work now, provide free coffee or free cokes to the DD and that has helped some.

Personallly, I may drink a mixed drink every 2 or 3 months. That is my preference but I can''t tell you how many times I've been stopped at 3AM because the State Patrol thought my eyes "looked a little red" from a distance of 100 yds in the pitch black night. Give me a break.

Anyway, this is one of the reasons that I see to the fall off of the bar crowds. My 2 cents worth. For what little it's worth. Thanks for allowing me to rant.

[This message was edited by Chuck Hall on 18 October 2005 at 07:14 AM.]